When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Pavels Dog]

Are you embarrassed by having a multi-time 40 goal scorer who is still in his prime and younger than Larkin listed as part of the core?

I'm a Hawks fan and would take AD back in a second. He has limitations, but IMO he can be a positive on a contending team.

I'm saying he's not viewed as a core piece. There's nothing wrong with him but the plan isn't to build around Debrincat as our main forward piece.

Fair enough on Raymond being a gamebreaker, he's an excellent player. I also said you need a MacKinnon, Barkov or even an Eichel, and you won't convince anybody that you have one of those guys in your system which is more of what I was getting at.

Larkin has outscored Eichel the last two seasons. I always find it a bit strange that Eichel gets put in the Mackinnon tier while Larkin is viewed tier(s?) below. Either way Detroit's obviously not gotten the fortune of lottery wins so they are building in a different way. It's fine to be skeptical about the potential, but not sure why it almost seems to trigger people that Detroit fans have some mild optimism still.

No matter how you build it from that roster it’s extremely average

Lacks the high end F talent

They were top 10 in scoring last season without high end F talent. Imagine if just one prospect hits a little higher than you think? Just one.

 

[BB88]

I'm saying he's not viewed as a core piece. There's nothing wrong with him but the plan isn't to build around Debrincat as our main forward piece.


Larkin has outscored Eichel the last two seasons. I always find it a bit strange that Eichel gets put in the Mackinnon tier while Larkin is viewed tier(s?) below. Either way Detroit's obviously not gotten the fortune of lottery wins so they are building in a different way. It's fine to be skeptical about the potential, but not sure why it almost seems to trigger people that Detroit fans have some mild optimism still.


They were top 10 in scoring last season without high end F talent. Imagine if just one prospect hits a little higher than you think? Just one.

They were shooting at a level they can’t sustain

& I was talking about core

Like with Florida, Barkov, Tkachuk, Reinhart, Toronto Matthews, Marner, Nylander, etc

Detroit doesn’t have a single superstar forward& you need those to win a Cup

 

[Dotter]

They were shooting at a level they can’t sustain

& I was talking about core

Like with Florida, Barkov, Tkachuk, Reinhart, Toronto Matthews, Marner, Nylander, etc

Detroit doesn’t have a single superstar forward& you need those to win a Cup

You don't need a top 3 F core in the league to win a cup. Look at Vegas cup, not one F was a PPG and not one 30 goal scorer.

Wings are not competing to have a top 3 forward group in the world. And if you look TML, it proves there's no guarantee if you have a top forward core.

In the past 5 years there are two hockey teams that won the cup without an elite F (PPG) group; Blues, VGN. One 30+ goal scorer, Tarasenko now on the Wings.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You don't need a top 3 F core in the league to win a cup. Look at Vegas cup, not one F was a PPG and not one 30 goal scorer.

Wings are not competing to have a top 3 forward group in the world. And if you look TML, it proves there's no guarantee if you have a top forward core.

In the past 5 years there are two hockey teams that won the cup without an elite F (PPG) group; Blues, VGN. One 30+ goal scorer, Tarasenko now on the Wings.

Wings are not built anything like Vegas.

 

[Dotter]

Wings are not built anything like Vegas.

Where did I say they were? But you don't need a top 3 forward group to win. Wings have the pieces in the system to build towards that.

 

[odin1981]

when do 'reasonable' wings fans expect to make the playoffs?

Likely in 1-2 year's. Not this year unless the stars align.

 

[jfrank21]

Looking at the D

View attachment 916165

I see 2 guys for any future success.

I look at the draft

View attachment 916166

I only see 2 guys. Edvennsson is making inroads now. ASP is projected to be a Top 4 D but he's still in Europe as of now. His NHL impact is at least 2 seasons away.

Who else is stepping in on D?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not just dog piling like the rest of these bitter, out of touch mouth breathers...but for sure, (as in Quote Me On This and feel free to save it and drag me in a couple of years) Kasper will be a top 6 center. Danielson at least a middle 6 center. MBN will be a top 6 wing. Mazur a bottom 6 sandpaper/ glue guy. That's 4 forwards for sure. At this point, Buchelnikov is tracking to have a shot at the show, Plante is promising based on his resume to date, and Lombardi is tracking well too. Those are the only other forwards worth really mentioning. As for D...You already listed ASP. Wallinder has been looking great from January thru now and I feel good about him being a #4 or #5 with his size and skating. Anton Johansson is doing very well in Sweden, making great strides every year since he was drafted. And Buium is still very promising in his own right, but needs to prove he can make the jump to pro hockey. Finally, your list didnt include Albert Johansson, he just made his debut in the league and did just fine for his first game. He could be a steadying partner for either Seider or Ed down the line. The wings pipeline is universally considered stacked for a reason. They just dont have a Bedard, Fantilli, Celebrini, etc.

 

[SlafySZN]

You don't need a top 3 F core in the league to win a cup. Look at Vegas cup, not one F was a PPG and not one 30 goal scorer.

Wings are not competing to have a top 3 forward group in the world. And if you look TML, it proves there's no guarantee if you have a top forward core.

In the past 5 years there are two hockey teams that won the cup without an elite F (PPG) group; Blues, VGN. One 30+ goal scorer, Tarasenko now on the Wings.

Jack Eichel is an elite forward.

 

[Dotter]

Jack Eichel is an elite forward.

If so, does that also make Dylan Larkin elite since he has roughly the same career numbers?

 

[Aladyyn]

Jack Eichel is an elite forward.

Also a certain fella named Mark Stone

 

[Oddbob]

Not by advanced stats. But Gustafsson was 2nd worst on those.

Advanced stats mean next to nothing. If you watch players play you can visually see who is the worst, and while Ed wasn't great he was at worst visually the 3rd/4th worst of the 6 that played, as Chiarot, Petry and Gus all didn't play well either. Watching players will always supersede advanced stats that are mostly just based on shots on goal for and against and chances for and against.

We had players like Brendan Smith who usually had at least decent advanced stats, but visually he was nowhere that good. There are lots of players with great advanced stats that look like garbage on the ice.

Jack Eichel is an elite forward.

Guy has never had what you would call an elite season offensively when you compare him to actual elites like McDavid and Kucherov. He is only viewed as better than he is because he was #2 with lots of hype in the McDavid draft. His career numbers don't back up elite play.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Detroit doesn’t have a single superstar forward& you need those to win a Cup

There's a lot of talk about what Detroit has today. You realize 5 years from now there's going to be superstars in the league that you didn't know were going to become superstars? And that trades and FA signings are actually a thing you can do in the NHL?
Also, I absolutely disagree that Eichel/Stone are on McDavid/Mackinnon's level, or that Tarasenko/O'Reilly were on that level, or that it would be impossible for Carolina to win the cup.

 

[SlafySZN]

Guy has never had what you would call an elite season offensively when you compare him to actual elites like McDavid and Kucherov. He is only viewed as better than he is because he was #2 with lots of hype in the McDavid draft. His career numbers don't back up elite play.

Watch him play.

 

[BlueSeal]

If so, does that also make Dylan Larkin elite since he has roughly the same career numbers?

Larkin's work and ethic is good enough to wear the C. No A's on that sweater.

And if numbers are the thing for you, where's McDavid's Cup?

Meanwhile Pat Maroon has three consecutive Cups. Which means, what?

Oh. It's a team sport. Where 4th liners have at times risen to play at an elite level at brief points to help contribute to go over the top. It's what makes watching the game fun.

 

[Chuck Norris Trophy]

Yzerplan is the biggest fraud in hockey.

See you in 10 years, you will still be saying that "give it time, it will work".

 

[norrisnick]

Yzerplan is the biggest fraud in hockey.

See you in 10 years, you will still be saying that "give it time, it will work".

What is the fraud being committed?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Fair enough on Raymond being a gamebreaker, he's an excellent player. I also said you need a MacKinnon, Barkov or even an Eichel, and you won't convince anybody that you have one of those guys in your system which is more of what I was getting at.

Game 1 got the thread bumped but many have felt this way about the Wings' direction for a long time. I like a lot of their prospects, like MBN who I think will be a good one, but I just don't know if they're building a roster that will have anything that stands out from mid-tier teams when all is said and done. But I also don't know this team as much as actual Redwings fans so I'll take your word for it if you think otherwise. I say this as someone who likes a lot of their prospects too.

1. Why do you “need” a Barkov/Mack/Eichel to win?

2. Larkin and Eichel have been pretty damn similar the last two seasons…

Looking at the forwards... I only see 3 impact guys for those cup runs the Wing's want to go on:

View attachment 916163

Then I look at drafted forwards:

View attachment 916164

Who do the Wing's fans feel will be very impractful in the next 2 to 3 seasons at the NHL level?

Danielson a great #2C

Buchelnikov is basically star player or bust. Looks great so far

And there are these things called trades and UFA signings.

Something all of HF seems to forget exists when evaluating teams

 

[SimpleJack]

If so, does that also make Dylan Larkin elite since he has roughly the same career numbers?

Dude plz stop Eichel is clearly a better player than Larkin. Just stop. Not that i dont like Larkin or anything....but regardless of whatever #s you're looking at, Eichel is the superior overall player.

Having said that, I'd also give DET 2 more seasons to see what they've got. Lots of interesting prospects. Most of their current roster are filler/veteran place holders. I think its fair to wait until their pipeline develops before you can fully claim that the Yzerplan failed.

 

[Hodge]

He hitched the team's wagon to Larkin and DeBrincat which is pretty uninspiring. I'd love to have those guys on my second line but you can't build a team around them and expect to win. Trading Larkin instead of extending him and tanking even harder to get that true franchise cornerstone piece may have been the right play. Of course there are off-ice/marketing considerations that probably played into that decision.

That said, the cap is going up and the Wings are flush with assets and long term cap space. Prospects like Danielson, Kasper, maybe even Edvinsson should be trade bait to land a star or two. Unfortunately I expect they'll just try and bring these prospects along slowly while Larkin and DeBrincat age out of their primes.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

He hitched the team's wagon to Larkin and DeBrincat which is pretty uninspiring. I'd love to have those guys on my second line but you can't build a team around them and expect to win. Trading Larkin instead of extending him and tanking even harder to get that true franchise cornerstone piece may have been the right play. Of course there are off-ice/marketing considerations that probably played into that decision.

That said, the cap is going up and the Wings are flush with assets and long term cap space. Prospects like Danielson, Kasper, maybe even Edvinsson should be trade bait to land a star or two. Unfortunately I expect they'll just try and bring these prospects along slowly while Larkin and DeBrincat age out of their primes.

I wouldn't call a four year deal for DeBrincat as hitching the wagon. It's more like Larkin, Raymond and Seider.

I don't see losing a top 10-20 center to win a lottery that never happens for this organization being the play. I'm glad they didn't either.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Gamebreakers aren't our problem. You guys can keep sleeping on Raymond but when he puts up 90+ points you'll understand that the top of our lineup can compete with anyone. Not to mention Larkin who doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves. Our top of the lineup is fantastic

Its when they're off the ice that this team is in BIG trouble

What team whose best player was equal to or less than Raymond/Larkin won a Stanley Cup in recent memory?

 

[PaulD]

Bergevin was given 10 years to ruin the Habs.

Traveling had 9 years in Calgary won 3 rounds and went through 5 coaches.

Ide say Yzerman has quite a few years left.

 

[PaulD]

What team whose best player was equal to or less than Raymond/Larkin won a Stanley Cup in recent memory?

Raymond ain't done progressing.

Hey it took OV 14 years to get past the second round.

Some teams take longer than others to win.......some take even longer to never win. Just ask Shanahan.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

What team whose best player was equal to or less than Raymond/Larkin won a Stanley Cup in recent memory?

Blues? Vegas?

 

[Hodge]

I wouldn't call a four year deal for DeBrincat as hitching the wagon. It's more like Larkin, Raymond and Seider.

I don't see losing a top 10-20 center to win a lottery that never happens for this organization being the play. I'm glad they didn't either.

Which is a strange trio to build around considering Larkin is 5-6 years older than the other two. Not to mention Seider and Raymond were obviously the first building blocks put into place...by the time Danielson and MBN are factors in the NHL, Larkin will be in his 30s. Considering he's already just an average 1C I'm not sure the contention timeline makes any sense here.