When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Oddbob]

Poll: How many points will the Red Wings accrue this season?

Let's see where everyone thinks we will finish the season.

forums.hfboards.com

49% of Wings fans here thought they'd be 90 pts or higher which will not happen.

0% thought they'd be 79 pts or fewer (which is still possible).

51% thought they'd 80-89 pts. They'll probably end up right at about 80 pts. I imagine that of those who said 80-89 pts, a decent amount were thinking "more than 80", it sounds like a majority of the fanbase was expecting more this season. That doesn't mean Yzerman deserves to be fired, he clearly doesn't, but it sounds like they aren't as good as fans thought.

You do realize those thoughts were based on Bertuzzi and Vrana being healthy all year or most of the year, or not missing the lineup completely right? Another 40-50 goals combined from those 2 would have been great to have this season, and even then most of the Wings fans were still expecting us to miss the playoffs even with that. Also, every fan base has fans who over-do what they expect in a given season.

That’s really not something to praise about.
It should be automatic that after 4 years with top 5/10 picks their future should look way better.

Detroits lineup and system lack high end forwards.
Larkin- Raymond- Kasper just isn’t enough in the East

Since Yzerman took over, we have drafted 6th, 4th, 6th, 8th and again, what do we do different that makes us better in your eyes?

 

[Oddbob]

I think they've had bad luck in draft lotteries, and picks that weren't the greatest.

Not all of these are Yzerman, but most are...

Mistakes / bad luck: Drafting Rasmussen over Necas or Suzuki. Drafting Zadina over Hughes. Losing the 2020 draft lottery (they would have taken Stutzle 1st). Picking Raymond over Sanderson. (Raymond is decent, but Sanderson looks like a budding star, already his team's #1 defenseman, great defensively). Picking Cossa over Wallstadt (questionable pick as Wallstadt was rated much higher, but goalies are voodoo, this could change). Lost out on a lot of possible stars here.

Good or great picks: Seider pick was a home run. Edvinsson pick could become a home run, or at least very good.

The total lack of toughness and extreme softness of the team is also a problem. They might be the softest team in the league and are easily bullied, and back down when physically challenged.

In summary: low star content, could have done much better in drafting stars. Extreme softness.

I still think Yzerman is a very good GM, he can still build a good team, but they are behind where they should be in the rebuild.

Yzerman didn't draft Rasmussen. Yzerman's first draft back he took Seider in 2019, followed by Raymond, Edvinsson and Kasper.

 

[Oddbob]

For what it's worth, nobody really said the Red Wings had an empty cupboard when Yzerman took the job.

2017 they made a 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, four 3rd round picks, 4th round pick, 5th round pick, two 6th round picks and 7th round pick.

2018 they made two 1st round picks, two 2nd round picks, three 3rd round picks, a 4th round pick, a 6th round pick and 7th round pick.

2019 (season played out, draft occurred later) they ended up with a 1st round pick, three 2nd round picks, 3rd round pick, 4th round pick, 5th round pick, two 6th round picks and two 7th round picks..... I think Yzerman traded a 5th for a 6th and a 7th, all other picks were already there.

That's a narrative that only emerged after those 2017 and 2018 picks fizzled out. Certainly at the time of Yzerman's hiring, nobody had given up on them yet. The shakeup in the scouting department of the Red Wings did not occur until 2021 (largely as a result of those bad picks). At the time of Yzerman's hiring, it was fairly business as usual (Yzerman had worked in the front office before) as opposed to major shakeup/upheaval. The clear bright line of "foolishly chasing the Playoffs" to "now it's a rebuild" when Yzerman came in is a convenient marketing thing but also doesn't really comport to reality.

This is a 7-year rebuild, not a 4-year rebuild.

Cupboard was empty, because Rasmussen is the best pick Holland left Yzerman with. Rasmussen is becoming a solid player, but nothing special and Zadina is basically a bottom 6 player, so when two recently drafted high players both don't come up big, that is empty cupboard. Also, you are conveniently leaving out a lot of high end contracts on bottoming out players that Yzerman had to either get rid of or wait for their contracts to end. That extends your being bad by a lot.

How is Yzerman to blame for picks that Holland made?

 

[Oddbob]

Oh ok fine:

Sign Andrei Kuzmenko
Sign Linus Ullmark
Sign Phillip Danault
trade a 4th rd pick for Valimaki
trade a 5th to TOR for Mason Marchment
Sign Dougie Hamilton

Looks like a much better team. But of course, yeah this is a silly exercise because no GM has the benefit of hindsight or the assumption that all these moves could be made by any particular team. Nor doesn't anybody KNOW what moves were available specifically to Detroit that the team didn't do.

Yeah, it's a silly exericse. as is your use of the word "literally".

These aren't realistic at all. Hamilton isn't signing with a non playoff team, Kuzmenko is virtually guaranteed not signing in Detroit, same with Danault who 100% isn't signing with a non playoff team. Valimaki isn't anything special and we would not be better with him or Marchment on our team.

Do you realize that only the lower tier UFAs sign with non playoff teams. Any of the good ones want to be a on playoff contenders, not rebuilding teams. so you have shown unrealistic moves that would make the team better.

Ullmark was not guaranteed to be sign in Detroit and he certainly wouldn't be as good as he has been in Boston, which is a combination of him playing well and the team having everything go right this year. That wouldn't be the case in Detroit.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

The whole thread is filled with fans of teams who got instant ppg superstars at 1 or 2 overall in order to have a succesfull rebuild lol I'm sure Detroit fans take those posts seriously from fans of said teams /s

 

[PatrikBerglund]

From in the playoff race to back in the bottom 10 of the League within a month

When Detroit lands Bedard, the plan is realised.

 

[MrGuyPerson]

This thread is kind of insane. Yzerman is building a contender through the draft with this team. Kasper is a fantastic player who will be sick. Seider is freak. Raymond is very talented. Edvinsson will be a great player. Another highish 1st rounder in a deep draft in 23? If anyone drafts a stud with a mid first rounder it will be Yzerman in this deep 23 draft.

I'd give Yzerman another 3 years before I question his decisions. He is building a special group of young players. Just because Raymond is not Stützle doesn't mean he isn't great at hockey. If I could build a team around any young D, Makar/Seider are the guys I would likely take first. Kasper has potential and I think he is a future 1st line player. Edvinsson is again great.

In 3 years if the wings aren't in a much better position maybe people should revisit this thread and voice some wild opinions

 

[Matty Sundin]

When he took over it was quite apparent this was gonna be a long rebuild

 

[Chet Manley]

The irony of an Oilers fan talking about bad management. When they have drafted #1 overall 5 times in the last decade and got gifted a generational player, and still haven't done crap lmao.

What percentage of your posts have the word Oilers in them?

 

[Fantomas]

They should have tanked, I have been saying this for months.

 

[Fantomas]

To get as bad as SJ, Chicago, Montreal, Columbus or Anaheim they would have had to absolutely purge their entire tean

All they had to do is not sign Perron, Kubalik and Copp. Just abject stupidity.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The team and the roster have seemingly spun their wheels (pun intended) for a bit now.

Have you already criticized it?

Or is making the playoffs next season critical?

Or does Yzerman have a longer leash due to his reputation?

Well they didn’t spin wheels as long as you guys did, even though you won multiple first overalls.

 

[dirtydanglez]

They should have tanked, I have been saying this for months.

no idea why yzerman thought this was the year.

 

[Fantomas]

no idea why yzerman thought this was the year.

Yzerman probably worked with some notion of building a winning culture. Which is an overrated idea.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Yzerman probably worked with some notion of building a winning culture. Which is an overrated idea.

yea there's a time and place but the wings obviously weren't ready.

 

[Ezekial]

Kinda early to say that when the lottery hasn't even happened.

If they get lucky and win 1st overall from 7 or 8 he magically made the perfect moves to get into that position.

 

[nturn06]

He has been back for 4 seasons, and the teams future looks way better than when he returned.

That's just a nice way of saying that Detroit finished at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years.

 

[Oddbob]

That's just a nice way of saying that Detroit finished at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years.

Sure it is!

 

[SMP17]

All they had to do is not sign Perron, Kubalik and Copp. Just abject stupidity.

Ahh these takes are so bad it’s painful enough to make an account. They had 74 points without these players last season and had no way of becoming 20+ points worse unless they sold off everything to start all over again. Wings are likely to finish around 80 points, with a healthy Bertuzzi and Vrana not having his player assistance issues they‘re in a wildcard spot, not selling at the deadline. Too many with lazy replies and aren’t actually educated on the current state of the team/season.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

All they had to do is not sign Perron, Kubalik and Copp. Just abject stupidity.

Wait, I thought those were bad signings because they're not good players?

But they're also responsible for the 20+ point difference between the Wings and the cellar dwellers?

Also keep in mind Yzerman had no crystal ball to know Vrana and Bertuzzi would be out much of the year. So even jettisoning those three players you named wouldn't have been enough with a healthy roster.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Wait, I thought those were bad signings because they're not good players?

But they're also responsible for the 20+ point difference between the Wings and the cellar dwellers?

mediocre players. wings committed $25m+ for multiple seasons just to become a lower end bubble team. i dont get the point of that.

 

[SMP17]

He's actually doing a good job, I think. Too many teams try to rush the rebuild. I kind of like what the Wings are doing, TBH. No need to get crazy and try to compete too soon, you know? They'll get another top prospect this year, in addition to whoever they draft with the NYI 1st. I think it's going to turn out well for them.

As for when it starts getting criticized, I'd have to say once they start getting into that Buffalo Sabres "ok, you've been bad and picked top 10 for like 10 years straight now, when are you going to turn it around?" territory. At that point the plan can begin to be critiqued.

Yzerman and his team have plenty of runway before being critiqued harshly. 2 years of cleaning out terrible contracts and hitting rock bottom, need another few years of seeing how his current crop of prospects pan out. Yes they‘ve only drafted once inside the top 5, but you can still find the talent to produce a winner in these drafts. It might not be “generational” but it’s there.

 

[Peasy]

Mixed results from the players he signed in the summer. With this years draft being really good at the top end, I think in hindsight it would have definitely been better to wait another year and finish with a better pick. But they also needed to get Larkin re-signed and maybe he doesnt if they tank again who knows.

Odd to try and go for it in a stacked division in such a good draft year.

But they have some solid pieces in place. maybe they'll get a homerun somewhere later in the draft. I think taking Cossa over Wallstedt was a mistake at the draft and it hasnt really looked any better since. But goalies are weird and its still early.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

mediocre players. wings committed $25m+ for multiple seasons just to become a lower end bubble team. i dont get the point of that.

This team has improved this year, in spite of not having guys like Bert and Vrana. They have better systems and PK. Even PP, though that's where you can see the lack of high end talent. They showed resilience in coming from behind.

Yzerman also had to re-sgn Larkin, which may have been harder to do after another abysmal season that results in a 4th overall pick at best.

They had a decent step forward as a team, now pulled the rip cord to improve draft position.

People can't seem to accept that when the wings were legit worst in the league they got screwed by the lottery in what was already a pretty thin draft. That doesn't mean you should tank forever in hopes of winning the lottery with a generational talent.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

mediocre players. wings committed $25m+ for multiple seasons just to become a lower end bubble team. i dont get the point of that.

Larkin, Seider, Raymond, Bertuzzi, Hronek, and Vrana meant they weren't a serious threat for bottom five. They weren't as bad as when Yzerman first took over, when he full in leaned into the tank. So he made those plans in the off-season. I guess they could have done something embarrassing with their goalies to attempt it, but it was a low percentage to find that neighborhood. It also isn't really healthy to be intentionally terrible and I imagine he promised the Ilitch's he would invest more and put more people in the building.

Also in a thread about when does Yzerman start getting some heat, um maybe that has a little to do with trying to improve the squad and take steps forward. This team has incrementally improved and rolled over almost the entire roster save our best piece since he took over... Is it where people want it in the standings? Nope, not yet, it also isn't some unmitigated disaster to get a big step from a former top 10 pick, more progression from younger players and some veteran habits that they clearly have been missing for the last little bit. They are not getting run out of the rink every 5 to 8 games.