When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Pavels Dog]

Poll: How many points will the Red Wings accrue this season?

Let's see where everyone thinks we will finish the season.

forums.hfboards.com

49% of Wings fans here thought they'd be 90 pts or higher which will not happen.

0% thought they'd be 79 pts or fewer (which is still possible).

51% thought they'd 80-89 pts. They'll probably end up right at about 80 pts. I imagine that of those who said 80-89 pts, a decent amount were thinking "more than 80", it sounds like a majority of the fanbase was expecting more this season. That doesn't mean Yzerman deserves to be fired, he clearly doesn't, but it sounds like they aren't as good as fans thought.

To be fair, the Wings were on pace for pretty close to 90 points for a large part of the season despite missing Bertuzzi and Vrana for most of it.
The pace slowed down significantly around the TDL when Rasmussen+Fabbri were hurt, Hronek+Bertuzzi+Vrana+Sundqvist traded and the team checked out mentally.

Most fans expected the team to stay in the playoffs hunt until pretty close to the TDL which is exactly what happened.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Oh ok fine:

Sign Andrei Kuzmenko
Sign Linus Ullmark
Sign Phillip Danault
trade a 4th rd pick for Valimaki
trade a 5th to TOR for Mason Marchment
Sign Dougie Hamilton

Looks like a much better team. But of course, yeah this is a silly exercise because no GM has the benefit of hindsight or the assumption that all these moves could be made by any particular team. Nor doesn't anybody KNOW what moves were available specifically to Detroit that the team didn't do.

Yeah, it's a silly exericse. as is your use of the word "literally".

It's funny how I mentioned "reality" and you apparently live in an alternate one where Linus Ullmark would sign with Detroit rather than Boston.

But then again I'm arguing with someone who apparently thinks rebuking those critical of Yzerman's progress are silly but not the actual people criticizing Yzerman.

 

[grapes55]

I definitely don't think Yzerman is infallible but I think he's generally done a good job. Signing Chiarot was a bit of a mistake and I think weaponizing the cap space instead could've been better. I think pulling the plug before the deadline and getting nice returns for Hronek and Bertuzzi was smart too. Honestly, the more I think about it they should keep building slowly since they haven't gotten a superstar level player in the draft (to go with Seider)

 

[ArGarBarGar]

These exercises are silly. I could name moves having the hindsight of knowing what has worked and what hasn't... but even if I do you'll say "Well that wasn't realistic, or that guy wouldn't have signed here, etc."

The only thing we can go on is "Is the team competitive." No it isn't. Yes he took over a crap team, and he hasn't done a "bad job" but so far the results aren't impressive.

If you are happy with the results... cool. Fans of other teams in the East are happy with Detroit's results so far too. So everyone is happy.

Nobody is "happy" with the results, we understand the results and aren't going to throw Yzerman under the bus because of things that are outside of his control.

You aren't making points, you are just throwing out rhetoric.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If we use Sakic and the Avs as an example of turning around a bad team, it was Sakic's 5th year as GM when Duchene got traded early in the season and a very young Avs team snuck into the playoffs as the last wild card team. And they were a wild card team the next year too. And that's in the West, where the wild card race isn't nearly as much of a bloodbath.

Yzerman took over the job in April of 2019, so we're currently in his 4th full season as GM. And they've increased their P% every season since he took over. Seems like the only valid criticism at this point is that he hasn't finished a 5-10 year job in his first 4 years.

 

[WarriorofTime]

For what it's worth, nobody really said the Red Wings had an empty cupboard when Yzerman took the job.

2017 they made a 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, four 3rd round picks, 4th round pick, 5th round pick, two 6th round picks and 7th round pick.

2018 they made two 1st round picks, two 2nd round picks, three 3rd round picks, a 4th round pick, a 6th round pick and 7th round pick.

2019 (season played out, draft occurred later) they ended up with a 1st round pick, three 2nd round picks, 3rd round pick, 4th round pick, 5th round pick, two 6th round picks and two 7th round picks..... I think Yzerman traded a 5th for a 6th and a 7th, all other picks were already there.

That's a narrative that only emerged after those 2017 and 2018 picks fizzled out. Certainly at the time of Yzerman's hiring, nobody had given up on them yet. The shakeup in the scouting department of the Red Wings did not occur until 2021 (largely as a result of those bad picks). At the time of Yzerman's hiring, it was fairly business as usual (Yzerman had worked in the front office before) as opposed to major shakeup/upheaval. The clear bright line of "foolishly chasing the Playoffs" to "now it's a rebuild" when Yzerman came in is a convenient marketing thing but also doesn't really comport to reality.

This is a 7-year rebuild, not a 4-year rebuild.

 

[Hobnobs]

Interesting deflection.

Oilers/Buffalo tire fire decade of darkness rebuilds doesn't mean Yzerman also gets a decade before he can be called out. I'm sure there is a middle ground between a really good rebuild and the worst rebuilds of all time, where you might say, we need some result soon.

Its not a decade. Its literally year 4. I know you have a warped sense of how rebuilds are done but that is pretty good without getting 1OAs

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Without signing free agent offensive stars or getting one in the draft this rebuild might be neverending story.

 

[Michoulicious]

The team and the roster have seemingly spun their wheels (pun intended) for a bit now.

Have you already criticized it?

Or is making the playoffs next season critical?

Or does Yzerman have a longer leash due to his reputation?

Signing Copp/Chiarot was puzzling, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Unloading injured Hronek at peak value at the draft was masterful.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

Rebuilding isn’t as quick as in the NHL 23 Be a GM mode… Who would’ve thought?

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Like someone else is going to do any better with the pieces we’re working with at this point

 

[North Cole]

Its not a decade. Its literally year 4. I know you have a warped sense of how rebuilds are done but that is pretty good without getting 1OAs

That's specifically what I'm talking about, the thread is populated with "lmao Hawks, lmao Oilers" comments. Once you're done getting your digs in about how bad our rebuild was, where does that leave us on the actual topic of the thread? Oilers and Hawks fans are not allowed an opinion because our orgs suck? Doesn't really leave a lot of room for any discourse.

I don't think it should be criticized yet either but certainly a couple more years and regardless of whether there were any 1OA or not you have to start seeing some kind of success. Getting a number of top 10 picks should still move you forward after half a decade.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That's specifically what I'm talking about, the thread is populated with "lmao Hawks, lmao Oilers" comments. Once you're done getting your digs in about how bad our rebuild was, where does that leave us on the actual topic of the thread? Oilers and Hawks fans are not allowed an opinion because our orgs suck? Doesn't really leave a lot of room for any discourse.

I don't think it should be criticized yet either but certainly a couple more years and regardless of whether there were any 1OA or not you have to start seeing some kind of success. Getting a number of top 10 picks should still move you forward after half a decade.

I think the shots at other rebuilds are off topic, but there's clearly some folks in this thread that are ignorant or intentionally misconstruing the Wings rebuild in order to criticize Yzerman.

He's certainly not above criticism but when someone's starting point is the rebuild has been going on for 7 years in a thread about the "Yzerplan," it's pretty clear anything to follow will be nonsense.

 

[Sweetpotato]

There's been some great decisions and bad decisions. I was hoping they'd get another top pick this year at forward but that doesn't look likely.

Theyve improved on paper at this point it's just year over year improvement from the youth that'll put them in contention.

 

[GreeningOil]

Very descriptive.

Indeed! I figure it is a solid coverall for a team that is not good

 

[flying squirrel]

Yzerman should get more time until he's pressured. To much pressure could cause hasty mistakes to be made because the front office might try to appease the masses. Detroit wasn't in a great place when he starter and didn't have star power to boot. With more time, he'll get the right fit there. Will Detroit be patient enough? We'll see.....

Yzerman did OK his 1st season (2010) for Lightning, but that Lightning 2010/2011 ECF team wasn't built by him. It took Yzerman about 5+ yrs (2015?) to put togther the team that has reached 6 ECF & 4 CF's so far. That's with Yzerman starting with Lecavalier, Marty St. Louis, Stamkos, Hedman, etc. back in 2010. Lightning's Yzerman started with a nice foundation to build off. With Yzerman at helm; the Lightning had the perfect-storm with a great GM, good staff, awesome owner, on "Point" scout team, AHL development, a HC that's won at every level he's coached, stars wanting to stay, bridge deals from upcoming stars, and other intangibles helped create that perfect-storm. Yzerman took 5+ yrs to get this going with all that! You think with Detroit's situation, it'd take longer than that to do it right. Not sure if today's fans are patient enough for that kind fo rebuild.

 

[PhillyRedWingsFan]

I like the build from the net out way Yzerman seems to be building.
Who would have thought Ned would fall off a cliff like he did?
Yes he inherited a disaster and I was screaming for Holland to leave for a few years. The prospect pool has me very upbeat about the future. I like the Cossa pick, contrary to many it seems. I have faith in Yzerman.

 

[sennysensen]

I think they've had bad luck in draft lotteries, and picks that weren't the greatest.

Not all of these are Yzerman, but most are...

Mistakes / bad luck: Drafting Rasmussen over Necas or Suzuki. Drafting Zadina over Hughes. Losing the 2020 draft lottery (they would have taken Stutzle 1st). Picking Raymond over Sanderson. (Raymond is decent, but Sanderson looks like a budding star, already his team's #1 defenseman, great defensively). Picking Cossa over Wallstadt (questionable pick as Wallstadt was rated much higher, but goalies are voodoo, this could change). Lost out on a lot of possible stars here.

Good or great picks: Seider pick was a home run. Edvinsson pick could become a home run, or at least very good.

The total lack of toughness and extreme softness of the team is also a problem. They might be the softest team in the league and are easily bullied, and back down when physically challenged.

In summary: low star content, could have done much better in drafting stars. Extreme softness.

I still think Yzerman is a very good GM, he can still build a good team, but they are behind where they should be in the rebuild.

 

[thaman8765678]

The irony of an Oilers fan talking about bad management. When they have drafted #1 overall 5 times in the last decade and got gifted a generational player, and still haven't done crap lmao.

 

[Eggtimer]

I like what Yzerman is doing . He has had some bad luck with draft lotteries band has made a couple moves that havnt worked as well as he hoped (Cossa ) but the rifht idea is there. Build from the back end out. Seider and Edvinsson plus other very good D pieces is key. I agree that another elite C is needed , but there was never any really draft picks there for him that would seem to fit that need.

 

[Ezekial]

That's specifically what I'm talking about, the thread is populated with "lmao Hawks, lmao Oilers" comments. Once you're done getting your digs in about how bad our rebuild was, where does that leave us on the actual topic of the thread? Oilers and Hawks fans are not allowed an opinion because our orgs suck? Doesn't really leave a lot of room for any discourse.

I don't think it should be criticized yet either but certainly a couple more years and regardless of whether there were any 1OA or not you have to start seeing some kind of success. Getting a number of top 10 picks should still move you forward after half a decade.

There's been one of these threads each month for the past few months, people are welcome to question some moves but it's still far too early to question the rebuild in its entirety. The wheels fell off at this point in the year and I'm fine with it, they put up a good fight most of the year but with players like Luff and Czarnik in our lineup it's time to get into that 7 or 8 lottery position and pray to the gods.

With all of that those other teams in our division that are "on the right track" in Buffalo and Ottawa remain 4 points ahead of us after losing a lot of our middle 6 to injury and trades since the deadline.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I think they've had bad luck in draft lotteries, and picks that weren't the greatest.

Not all of these are Yzerman, but most are...

Mistakes / bad luck: Drafting Rasmussen over Necas or Suzuki. Drafting Zadina over Hughes. Losing the 2020 draft lottery (they would have taken Stutzle 1st). Picking Raymond over Sanderson. (Raymond is decent, but Sanderson looks like a budding star, already his team's #1 defenseman, great defensively). Picking Cossa over Wallstadt (questionable pick as Wallstadt was rated much higher, but goalies are voodoo, this could change). Lost out on a lot of possible stars here.

Good or great picks: Seider pick was a home run. Edvinsson pick could become a home run, or at least very good.

The total lack of toughness and extreme softness of the team is also a problem. They might be the softest team in the league and are easily bullied, and back down when physically challenged.

In summary: low star content, could have done much better in drafting stars. Extreme softness.

I still think Yzerman is a very good GM, he can still build a good team, but they are behind where they should be in the rebuild.

I agree with some of this but in terms of "could have done much better in drafting stars," falling in the lottery wasn't their fault. Zadina and Rasmussen were Holland not Yzerman. And it seems early to be calling Raymond over Sanderson a mistake as well as Cossa over Wallstadt. Wallstadt seems more promising but like you said, goalies are voodoo.

Could have done better? Sure, like a lot of teams. Much better? I think they did pretty well with the hands they were dealt falling in the draft year after year in not particularly strong drafts.

They need more toughness but it feels like your assessment is largely based on the two games against the Sens where the Wings completely crapped the bed. If they played that way all season they'd be in the Blue Jackets/Blackhawks territory right now.

They've made good progress but are still lacking some high end talent and grit.

 

[Oddbob]

That’s really not something to praise about.
It should be automatic that after 4 years with top 5/10 picks their future should look way better.

Detroits lineup and system lack high end forwards.
Larkin- Raymond- Kasper just isn’t enough in the East

And what should Detroit have done differently? In the past 4 seasons?

 

[Oddbob]

Agreed. Your post ended the thread. If DET fans are happy with marginal progress, then that's their choice.

Some fanbases demand more than 4 years later not being "as bad".

What should they have done differently that currently makes them better? Everyone running them down, yet no real options for what they realistically could have done differently. Also, seeing Oilers fans in here is hilarious, as lucking their way into not 1, but 2 game changing talents and they are only now looking decent.

People are saying the Wings suck, and then are saying they should have tanked harder this season, which sorry to say means they suck even worse as they would have a worse record for barely higher odds of getting 1st. We finished last by a mile just a few years ago, and dropped all the way to 4th in the lottery and then got a better player than we would have with #1. Have people seen how bad the teams below us have been? We would have had to healthy scratch Seider all season and get rid of Larkin to be down with Sj and CBJ, etc. That would also have us in a worse spot as now we are down a very good player in Larkin, where I we getting a Larkin replacement if we trade him for futures?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That’s really not something to praise about.
It should be automatic that after 4 years with top 5/10 picks their future should look way better.

Detroits lineup and system lack high end forwards.
Larkin- Raymond- Kasper just isn’t enough in the East

They've had one top 5 pick. #4 Lucas Raymond in 2020.

That was the year the Wings were dead last in the league with 39 points. the next closest team was the Sens with 62. Yet they fell back as far as possible in the draft from 1st overall to 4th. They came away with a good player in Raymond but had they only fallen back a couple places instead of 3 they could've had Stutzle instead of the Sens.

The Wings haven't had a pick higher than that since Keith Primeau at #3 in 1990.