When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[ArGarBarGar]

if thats where 15th in the east drafts than yes.

That's not, in my opinion, a "much better pick." It's not nothing, but it isn't a gamechanger.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Too much depends on the lottery and luck..

Take the old rivalry partner - Colorado.

They were irrelevant for 10+ years since 2003 even longer. People are quickly to forget it. Even made the playoffs in 2008, I clearly remember that because of Franzen. They drafted some good players but lacked a competent GM.

Then,

1. They got lucky (actually I believe they deserved after all that) in the lottery with their 1st and 2nd in real stars MacKinnon and Landeskog

2. They got absolutely lucky to get superstar D in Makar (somewhat unnatural for his position on the draft) and 40+ goal scorer in Rantanen at 9th

3. They had competent GM that did not waste the opportunity.

Without any of these three points they are still a middle of the pack team just like Buffalo, Edmonton, NYI, Nashville, Detroit, etc that had only one out of these three points.

You need luck to build a contender and it should come in bunches.

colorado is a good comparison. they managed to rebuild in 8ish years by having a good gm with excellent supporting staff of amateur scouts, pro scouts and an analytics department. this is how the wings should be doing it. the amateur scouts nailed their picks, the pro scouts identified underutilized and undervalued players, their gm managed to pay excellent prices and it was all driven by good use of analytics.

 

[DamonDRW]

colorado is a good comparison. they managed to rebuild in 8ish years by having a good gm with excellent supporting staff of amateur scouts, pro scouts and an analytics department. this is how the wings should be doing it. the amateur scouts nailed their picks, the pro scouts identified underutilized and undervalued players, their gm managed to pay excellent prices and it was all driven by good use of analytics.

It seems this is what Yzerman is doing. Everyone here expects a miracle though.

 

[dirtydanglez]

It seems this is what Yzerman is doing. Everyone here expects a miracle though.

its spending all the money in free agency that throws me.

 

[DamonDRW]

its spending all the money in free agency that throws me.

He is signing players that won't be relevant once Red Wings will be ready to compete. We won't anyway outtank the masters from Arizona, Chicago, Montreal anyway with or without Copp, Chariot, Maatta.

 

[haulinbass]

Too much depends on the lottery and luck..

Take the old rivalry partner - Colorado.

They were irrelevant for 10+ years since 2003 even longer. People are quickly to forget it. Even made the playoffs in 2008, I clearly remember that because of Franzen. They drafted some good players but lacked a competent GM.

Then,

1. They got lucky (actually I believe they deserved after all that) in the lottery with their 1st and 2nd in real stars MacKinnon and Landeskog

2. They got absolutely lucky to get superstar D in Makar (somewhat unnatural for his position on the draft) and 40+ goal scorer in Rantanen at 9th

3. They had competent GM that did not waste the opportunity.

Without any of these three points they are still a middle of the pack team just like Buffalo, Edmonton, NYI, Nashville, Detroit, etc that had only one out of these three points.

You need luck to build a contender and it should come in bunches.

If you want to win cups you need top picks. If you don't get lottery luck, you need to keep rebuilding until you get enough of it. If you end up in bad drafts, you won't likely be great until you draft elite players at the top of good drafts. If you get enough of that luck and have a crap GM, you will probably still suck. It's just the way it is.

Until your team can accomplish this, good luck.

If you take shortcuts and squeeze into the playoffs, you'll likely be rebuilding AGAIN in short order.

Good luck becoming an outlier like the Blues, I'm not going to risk my buisiness on a strategy like that.

Wings should have deployed their young guys like Berggren from game 1 and let them develop. Signing these guys in the offseason has only set this team back.

You can keep drafting Manthas, Bertuzzis, etc level guys mid 1st all you want. They won't have a big enough impact to make your team go anywhere noteable, then 8 years later you will trade them for whatever they are worth. You have to have top 3 picks. You can argue Tampa drafted a couple elite guys later, but Tampa wouldn't have become Tampa without those top picked players on their roster either. You need to both draft elite players with top picks and be able to snag a couple great players with picks outside that. The reality is, if you can't do both at the same time, you likely won't become a great team. But one thing is for sure, you WILL not get enough game breakers on your roster not having multiple picks in the top 3.

People act like you can regularly pick up players any better than Perron. You can't, you can replace him and other guys on our roster with different names, you will get the same results. You have to have legit elite players. You can have all the star player depth you want, how do you make a top PP unit with depth?? You need game breakers, bottom line. The best avenue to those types is finishing in bottom 3-5 max. If you don't like that idea, I don't know what to tell you. It does fail, but it is what it is and there is no way around it. There just isn't some other option available that works better. There just isn't, I'm sorry. You have to go through it and the best way to do it is serious commitment, you have to stick with it until you get your elite players. If you rush it, you blow your feet off and likely get stuck rebuilding even longer.

 

[dirtydanglez]

He is signing players that won't be relevant once Red Wings will be ready to compete. We won't anyway outtank the masters from Arizona, Chicago, Montreal anyway with or without Copp, Chariot, Maatta.

easily on par with montreal without all that spending. even picking just a few spots sooner at the top of the draft can make a world of difference.

 

[Djp]

Don't move goalposts. You brought up picks as far back as 2011. And this is what you said:

Yes, Wings traded Bertuzzi for a 1st and Hronek for a 1st = using them as trade chips.

trading them for players who help mold the team, not sending them out for a rebuild.

look at Kings. They traded a bunch of prospects in trades to add players they needed

If you have a deeper prospect pool from drafting, then team traded them in deals later to help mold e the build around filling them.

sure there can be times where some roster players need to get moved because of cap space Or are UFAs to walk.


you look at other teams and their drafting of players after top 20– Detroit has not been all that good.

in terms of drafting you want to hit on your top 20. Those late 1st to mid 2nd you need to hit on some. If you can get some players later is good.

 

[Djp]

If you want to win cups you need top picks. If you don't get lottery luck, you need to keep rebuilding until you get enough of it. If you end up in bad drafts, you won't likely be great until you draft elite players at the top of good drafts. If you get enough of that luck and have a crap GM, you will probably still suck. It's just the way it is.

Until your team can accomplish this, good luck.

If you take shortcuts and squeeze into the playoffs, you'll likely be rebuilding AGAIN in short order.

Good luck becoming an outlier like the Blues, I'm not going to risk my buisiness on a strategy like that.

Wings should have deployed their young guys like Berggren from game 1 and let them develop. Signing these guys in the offseason has only set this team back.

You can keep drafting Manthas, Bertuzzis, etc level guys mid 1st all you want. They won't have a big enough impact to make your team go anywhere noteable, then 8 years later you will trade them for whatever they are worth. You have to have top 3 picks. You can argue Tampa drafted a couple elite guys later, but Tampa wouldn't have become Tampa without those top picked players on their roster either. You need to both draft elite players with top picks and be able to snag a couple great players with picks outside that. The reality is, if you can't do both at the same time, you likely won't become a great team. But one thing is for sure, you WILL not get enough game breakers on your roster not having multiple picks in the top 3.

People act like you can regularly pick up players any better than Perron. You can't, you can replace him and other guys on our roster with different names, you will get the same results. You have to have legit elite players. You can have all the star player depth you want, how do you make a top PP unit with depth?? You need game breakers, bottom line. The best avenue to those types is finishing in bottom 3-5 max. If you don't like that idea, I don't know what to tell you. It does fail, but it is what it is and there is no way around it. There just isn't some other option available that works better. There just isn't, I'm sorry. You have to go through it and the best way to do it is serious commitment, you have to stick with it until you get your elite players. If you rush it, you blow your feet off and likely get stuck rebuilding even longer.

Generally outside the top 12 or so you are getting some role players. Some of thrm can be decent players.

if you look at recent cup finalists/ winners they have had a couple top 5 picks they built from either the player, or what they got in trades from it. Thry also had a bunch of other top 20 picks.

LA, Chicago, tampa bay, Pittsburgh, Washington, Boston, even St. Louis.

at the same time they did get decent players outside the top 20 either as part of their team, or as trade chips.

tampa dtill got stamkos snd hedman. But they also hit on a bunch of 3rd and latter players. When I mean hit, I don’t say they have to be superstar players, but just be above replacement level players.

now with a hard cap, ROI matters. Teams are going to be more willing going with that prior 1st/2nd round pick innyr 2 of an ELC over signing an average vet player for $3M+

you have seen this in other sports where the avg player gets squeezed out. You see this in other industries that is not based on skills/ experience. Only thr top ones last fir 20+ years while the rest skews younger until they have to change careers.

 

[Fatass]

It seems this is what Yzerman is doing. Everyone here expects a miracle though.

Yup. Not every rebuild is successful and makes for a great club. Need to get the key guys during that cycle. Seems Yzerman feels he needs to improve on his key guys. He traded away some important players at the TDL for picks. He’s still building his core.

 

[Djp]

colorado is a good comparison. they managed to rebuild in 8ish years by having a good gm with excellent supporting staff of amateur scouts, pro scouts and an analytics department. this is how the wings should be doing it. the amateur scouts nailed their picks, the pro scouts identified underutilized and undervalued players, their gm managed to pay excellent prices and it was all driven by good use of analytics.

Colorado is not the example you want to follow

they hit on the top 5 picks they had.
they hit on ROR who they traded and Duchene who they traded.

they have done little in the draft Beyond that.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

Boston was supposed to fall off.
A fully healthy lineup should've at least made a wild card spot.
Bertuzzi missing half the season, Vrana entering PAP and Raymond's sophomore slump all hurt tremendously.

Yzerman knows you need to build a winning culture, so he brought in guys who have won. Perron, Sundqvist and Maatta.

Just like our draft lotteries over the past few years, we've just had shitty luck.

 

[DamonDRW]

Colorado is not the example you want to follow

they hit on the top 5 picks they had.
they hit on ROR who they traded and Duchene who they traded.

they have done little in the draft Beyond that.

Man superstar D at 3rd and 50 goal scorer at 9th are huge luck.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Colorado is not the example you want to follow

they hit on the top 5 picks they had.
they hit on ROR who they traded and Duchene who they traded.

they have done little in the draft Beyond that.

they hit all their early picks out of the park. sounds simple but it's not. they had a very good rebuild.

that duchene trade solidified their future.

 

[BHD]

He has been back for 4 seasons, and the teams future looks way better than when he returned.

There is always ‘the future.’

 

[StreetHawk]

Boston was supposed to fall off.
A fully healthy lineup should've at least made a wild card spot.
Bertuzzi missing half the season, Vrana entering PAP and Raymond's sophomore slump all hurt tremendously.

Yzerman knows you need to build a winning culture, so he brought in guys who have won. Perron, Sundqvist and Maatta.

Just like our draft lotteries over the past few years, we've just had shitty luck.

I think most would have put money on Boston over Detroit to make the PO. Pitt and Wash were the teams to be on the lookout for in terms of dropping out of the PO the most. FLA, after the Tkachuk deal, weakened their D. Output from Hub to Tkachuk was a push from last season to this one, so a decline from them was expected to occur.

TB, Tor, NYR, Car were the teams I'd put as locks to make the PO.

I'd figure one maybe two of Bos, Fla, Pitt, Wash may fall out because NYI would be competitive. Probably one of But, NJ, Ott would step up and challenge for a spot.

Question for the Wings is whether they have enough impact players to drive the team going forward.

LA I think has guys who can fill in the roles of Carter, Toffoli, Pearson, Martinez, etc. in that second tier, but have yet to have anyone that can take over for Kopitar, Doughty, Quick as their 3 key drivers. Patterson, whom they invested multiple years on, completely fell off the rails this season.

Detroit has the key Dman who can play big minutes. I don't think Raymond is going to win you a series, but can be an important role. Need to figure out how to acquire an impact forward.

 

[Oddbob]

wings were over the floor by $15m so clearly thats not the case.

When the offseason began they were nearly 20 under, so yes it was the case.

 

[FastEddie]

They're trending upwards, but the answer is next year. The must at least be in Buffalo or Ottawa's situation of near missing the playoffs, and even that isn't a lot to ask. I personally believe in Yzerman. Wings were so good for so long it's hard to turn the page, remake the team from the ground up.

 

[StreetHawk]

They're trending upwards, but the answer is next year. The must at least be in Buffalo or Ottawa's situation of near missing the playoffs, and even that isn't a lot to ask. I personally believe in Yzerman. Wings were so good for so long it's hard to turn the page, remake the team from the ground up.

They are doing that. Have to take the start from when Yzerman arrives in 2019 not since 2017 when they missed the playoffs for 3 years before he arrived pushing the total to 7 straight seasons out.

But realistically they need to land a couple of impact players. Be it draft or trade. I doubt they are in position to convince someone big to sign as a ufa with them.

 

[dirtydanglez]

When the offseason began they were nearly 20 under, so yes it was the case.

so? that doesn't mean that have to go $15m over to be cap compliant, thats silly.

 

[Oddbob]

so? that doesn't mean that have to go $15m over to be cap compliant, thats silly.

What is much much more silly is thinking the team that has the 4th lowest cap hit in the whole league, spent "too much" in the offseason. That is with having spent 25 million this past offseason.

 

[dirtydanglez]

What is much much more silly is thinking the team that has the 4th lowest cap hit in the whole league, spent "too much" in the offseason. That is with having spent 25 million this past offseason.

those weren't one year contracts.

you have a worse pick and still no playoffs.

if thats what youre going for congrats.

 

[Oddbob]

those weren't one year contracts.

you have a worse pick and still no playoffs.

if thats what youre going for congrats.

So what if they weren't one year contracts? They still need players beyond this year. Only thing that changes is who gets the money if you bring in new players. Weren't going for the playoffs, were going for more competitive which we were, have the 4th lowest cap in the league and drafting about where we thought we would at the beginning of the season. Most Wings fans after the signings thought we were drafting 7-12 and that is where we will be drafting. In actual on ice talent we are 8.5-9 or so mil over the floor, that isn't some crazy number here.

 

[Connor McConnor]

They desperately need a superstar forward, preferably 1c. They’d be a whole new team.

 

[Pavels Dog]

trading them for players who help mold the team, not sending them out for a rebuild.

look at Kings. They traded a bunch of prospects in trades to add players they needed

If you have a deeper prospect pool from drafting, then team traded them in deals later to help mold e the build around filling them.

I'm sure Yzerman will do some prospect/picks for players trades. He already has to some extent (Husso/Nedeljkovic trades, Leddy trade). Wings are not in the same situation as LA who are still building around Kopitar and Doughty.

you look at other teams and their drafting of players after top 20– Detroit has not been all that good.

Except you have completely failed to provide any examples of this except a handful of picks dating back to 2011. And you mainly used Tampa as an example, i.e. giving your vote of confidence to Yzerman over any other GM in the NHL.