When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Oddbob]

There is no need to be rude, I understand it's the path of least resistance to just re-sign Larkin, but no need to scoff like trading him would have been the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard. There is a lot more consideration in play. FWIW, there is an elite Top 4 this year and even prospects 5 and 6 are all very good... it's a bit of a fallacy to think it's Bedard or Bust and that everyone after him sucks.

None of the other players even if better are playing at top flight level for a very long time, which is the point. People are already complaining about missing the playoffs for so many seasons, and trading Larkin adds at least 2-5 more years of no playoffs. Like I said, where is there a really good, already playing, and available NHL center? There aren't any. The good ones never make it to UFA unless there is outlying issues with the team they are on ala Horvat. Otherwise you aren't getting a good NHL center for a long time without drafting one. If people think the Wings are bad now, watch with Larkin out, we are a whole new level of bad.

There is no need to be rude, I understand it's the path of least resistance to just re-sign Larkin, but no need to scoff like trading him would have been the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard. There is a lot more consideration in play. FWIW, there is an elite Top 4 this year and even prospects 5 and 6 are all very good... it's a bit of a fallacy to think it's Bedard or Bust and that everyone after him sucks.

Also, want to mention that every draft there is "elite" players available and virtually all of them are much less elite than you hope for. People always talk like the top draft picks are all going to be homeruns and your ship is on the right track, and the will be penciled into your lineup immediately, but that isn't reality. Takes at least 2-3 years after any draft to truly start seeing who is good and great, and many times the top draft picks aren't the guys who all end up being the best ones.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Where was I rude?

“Special store” felt condescending. Apologies if that’s not how you meant it.

 

[Oddbob]

“Special store” felt condescending. Apologies if that’s not how you meant it.

No it was meant as where do we get top end centers, other than draft luck, as if there is this store where anyone can get one? We would have had to sit Larkin for 40-60% of our games this season, to be down with SJ and company at the bottom and could still end up with other than Bedard. Those other players may eventually be great, but that is a long time from now and in the mean time who plays NHL center for Detroit, eating all the big matchups, PP and PK.

We were 20 pts off 2nd worst spot a few years back, and that ended with us dropping to 4th. The Wings have never risen since the draft lottery took place, while 3 or 4 other teams have won or jumped more than once in that span of time. Not hard to see why Yzerman and company are not happy to just hope for getting #1 overall only to have it go away.

 

[Pavels Dog]

There are many teams who drafted nhl players outside the top 20. Some of them might have been used as trade chips. They fill generally depth roles vs being all stars.

you need to have some success filling your 23 man with late 1st and 2nd day draft picks. Thesr pkayers sre grnerally your hotyom 6/ bottom 4.

Look at tampa and Boston. Cirelli and Point were not top 20 picks. Kucherov was not a 1st round pick.

in the era of a hard cap you are going to run into problems trying to survive solely on top 20 picks and signing UFAs.

Since 2013:
Mantha (20th)
Bertuzzi
Janmark
Hronek
Lindström
Veleno
Berggren
Söderblom

Best candidates from recent drafts:
Mazur
Wallinder
Johansson
Lombardi
Hanas

 

[dirtydanglez]

That 74 is projected cap hit, their actual roster and buried is 59m with another 9m in dead cap, we had enough extra to be able to make trades and yes, to be more competitive than last year, which we were/are.

Last year we were .451, the year prior we were .429, this year we're .513. Yzerman is going the slow and steady route as he's indicated numerous times that it will take time and patience is the key.

at the beginning of the season it was $76m and only $4m in dead cap. besides dead cap still counts against the floor so the $25m in new ufas didn't have anything to do with getting to the floor when the wings are $15m over that threshold.

You do realize that we had to sign about 20 mil just to get to the floor, right? Yzerman said he brought them in to make the team better, but more importantly it was so the young guys weren't getting smoked everynight. Nowhere in Yzerman's press interview before or during this season, did he mention us making the playoffs, simply being more competitive and in the race, which we were. All of that was without Bert and Vrana stuff happening.

no you didn't. the floor is around $60m the wings opening payroll was around $76m.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

$25m in new ufa contracts comes with expectation. the wings were suppose to compete and maybe even win a wildcard. it didn't work out as planned so people are rightfully questioning the decision.

What is your definition of "compete"?

 

[dirtydanglez]

What is your definition of "compete"?

in this sense be a serious threat for and maybe win a wildcard spot.

 

[Djp]

Yes, and who says Yzerman hasn't already drafted some? None of the outside 1st rounds picks with the exception of Soderblom that Yzerman drafted for Detroit have played for Detroit yet.

that is the big unknown. How do those players develop Is key.

Since 2013:
Mantha (20th)
Bertuzzi
Janmark
Hronek
Lindström
Veleno
Berggren
Söderblom

how many of those were traded and for what? 2014 picks are st UFA age now.

 

[Dotter]

I read the first 10 pages of this thread and the #1 question wasn't even asked. What is considered a great rebuild? Because I look around the league and look at teams and haven't even seen anything spectacular.

What are we comparing DRWs to? Edmonton sucks. Been in a rebuild for like a million years. Buffalo sucks, they have done literally nothing. Devils have done nothing other than winning some lottery. Toronto been rebuilding since what, the 1960s? They can't even make it out of the first round and look to be about to implode after this season. TBL did nothing till Yzerman came to their rescue. OTT sucks.

Clearly every other rebuilding team has done nothing other than getting some lottery luck.

As for DRWs, they suck. They're supposed to suck. Yzerman knows more about losing culture than anyone in the league. He also knows more about winning culture more than anyone in the world. He's been part of both sides.

His drafting thus far looks spot on. He drafted a player that just won Calder, another player that was runner up. Edvinsson looks like a stud. Kasper has been much impressive. Mazur and Wallinder have been in high praise talks on the boards. The Cossa vs. Wallinder debate will be settled in 5 yrs. Can't claim one is better than the other until they prove themselves in the NHL.

Yzerman scored Walman that has been nothing short of brilliant. Healthy Fabbri has been a steal.

You can criticize anything. Maybe you think Larkin earns $25 too much. Maybe you think Chariot is nothing but a water boy. But at the end of the day, what matters is moving forward with the rebuild and acquiring valuable draft picks and being a rockstar at drafting, which Yzerman has done. He's been nothing short of amazing at drafting (his guy just won Calder). He has 5 picks in the first 2 rounds this upcoming draft! He has cap space to play with.

If he you expected them to make the playoffs, then that is on you for being unrealistic. Look around the league at all these teams that have spent 5 decades rebuilding and still can't do anything. Yzerman is in year FOUR with no lottery luck.

 

[BFLO]

I think Buffalo's biggest issue is that they just missed on too many draft picks. Even where drafting NHL players, they weren't drafting enough quality ones, just depth guys. You'd like more than just Eichel as a guy that feels like a player than can be a core piece on a contender level player from the 2009 - 2017 drafts (or at least that sort of piece before they hit UFA aged years).

I think Buffalo expected too much from their players while they were too young and had no good nhl depth on the roster. And traded away or let walk a lot of decent NHL players.

The ex-Sabres line up:

E.Kane Eichel Reinhart
Hagel RoR Compher
Carrier E.Rod Armia
Johansson Sheary Deslauries
Foligno Vesey Lemieux

Miller Montour
McNabb Risto
Zadorov McCabe
Borgen Kulikov
Irwin Bogosian
Scandella

Ullmark
Lehner

 

[The Red Line]

There is no need to be rude, I understand it's the path of least resistance to just re-sign Larkin, but no need to scoff like trading him would have been the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard. There is a lot more consideration in play. FWIW, there is an elite Top 4 this year and even prospects 5 and 6 are all very good... it's a bit of a fallacy to think it's Bedard or Bust and that everyone after him sucks.

Yes but you must at least appreciate a tiny bit of the hilarity that in a thread that is criticizing the Yzerman rebuild for not producing results fast enough, you are suggesting making moves that would prolong the rebuild an additional 4-5 years...

 

[Oddbob]

at the beginning of the season it was $76m and only $4m in dead cap. besides dead cap still counts against the floor so the $25m in new ufas didn't have anything to do with getting to the floor when the wings are $15m over that threshold.


no you didn't. the floor is around $60m the wings opening payroll was around $76m.

Umm yeah we did. When the offseason began we were at about 41-42 million cap hit, some of which was dead cap, and you still need to hit the floor and have enough players to play a full season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

how many of those were traded and for what? 2014 picks are st UFA age now.

Don't move goalposts. You brought up picks as far back as 2011. And this is what you said:

There are many teams who drafted nhl players outside the top 20. Some of them might have been used as trade chips. They fill generally depth roles vs being all stars.

Yes, Wings traded Bertuzzi for a 1st and Hronek for a 1st = using them as trade chips.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Umm yeah we did. When the offseason began we were at about 41-42 million cap hit, some of which was dead cap, and you still need to hit the floor and have enough players to play a full season.

wings were over the floor by $15m so clearly thats not the case.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

in this sense be a serious threat for and maybe win a wildcard spot.

Which might have happened if Vrana wasn't admitted to the player assistance program and Bertuzzi wasn't injured most of the year.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Which might have happened if Vrana wasn't admitted to the player assistance program and Bertuzzi wasn't injured most of the year.

wings weren't the only team in the east with injuries. if no other team in the east lost key players the wings probably still finish where they are.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

wings weren't the only team in the east with injuries. if no other team in the east lost key players the wings probably still finish where they are.

I never said they were the only team with injuries. I am saying they had talent to compete but lost key pieces for most/ all of the season.

A rebuilding team like Detroit isn't going to have the same depth that a contender might have to mitigate those losses. Unless you think Yzerman should have created enough depth to counterract the possibility that two of their top forwards might be out for the rest of the season?

 

[dirtydanglez]

I never said they were the only team with injuries. I am saying they had talent to compete but lost key pieces for most/ all of the season.

A rebuilding team like Detroit isn't going to have the same depth that a contender might have to mitigate those losses. Unless you think Yzerman should have created enough depth to counterract the possibility that two of their top forwards might be out for the rest of the season?

yes yzerman should have added more depth since he was pushing for the playoffs. i think he should have just stuck with his young core personally. not getting a high pick or playoffs is the road to mediocrity. he'll have to be careful the next few seasons so that detroit doesnt get stuck in that loop

 

[ArGarBarGar]

yes yzerman should have added more depth since he was pushing for the playoffs. i think he should have just stuck with his young core personally. not getting a high pick or playoffs is the road to mediocrity. he'll have to be careful the next few seasons so that detroit doesnt get stuck in that loop

Yzerman was not "pushing for the playoffs". What makes you think that was the goal of this season?

The goal was to start adding pieces and see where the team goes from there, possibly competing for a playoff spot (which was unlikely to win a cup anyway). Based on what he saw this season, he moved pieces to add long-term assets at the deadline.

I'm not sure what is so controversial about this. Either make a bunch of trades (either giving up roster pieces or draft picks) or sign overpaid free agents to add depth or remove enough players to actually compete for the lottery (which is almost impossible unless you get rid of Larkin/ Bertuzzi/ Seider/ Raymond)? Both sound like shortsighted goals to me.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Yzerman was not "pushing for the playoffs". What makes you think that was the goal of this season?

The goal was to start adding pieces and see where the team goes from there, possibly competing for a playoff spot (which was unlikely to win a cup anyway). Based on what he saw this season, he moved pieces to add long-term assets at the deadline.

I'm not sure what is so controversial about this. Either make a bunch of trades (either giving up roster pieces or draft picks) or sign overpaid free agents to add depth or remove enough players to actually compete for the lottery (which is almost impossible unless you get rid of Larkin/ Bertuzzi/ Seider/ Raymond)? Both sound like shortsighted goals to me.

looks like he was pushing for the playoffs. he was the biggest buyer in free agency.

nothing about what yzerman did is controversial but it does seem questionable.

yzerman could have just let the core grow on their own. maybe pick up a few assets for eating a contract if need be. i think the wings would end up with a much better pick and would have more cap flexibility going forward had they been more patient.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

looks like he was pushing for the playoffs. he was the biggest buyer in free agency.

nothing about what yzerman did is controversial but it does seem questionable.

yzerman could have just let the core grow on their own. maybe pick up a few assets for eating a contract if need be. i think the wings would end up with a much better pick and would have more cap flexibility going forward had they been more patient.

The biggest buyer grabbing a bunch of middling guys? I think your definition of "big buyer" is different than mine.

How far do you think the Wings could have dropped in the standings, realistically? Maybe they drop below Washington and Vancouver. Do you think they drop below Philly? Montreal?

 

[dirtydanglez]

The biggest buyer grabbing a bunch of middling guys? I think your definition of "big buyer" is different than mine.

How far do you think the Wings could have dropped in the standings, realistically? Maybe they drop below Washington and Vancouver. Do you think they drop below Philly? Montreal?

$25m in new acquisitions seems like a lot to me.

with no new acquisitions and just keeping their core i think the wings might be 15th in the east. somewhere around there. likely not as bad as cbj.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

$25m in new acquisitions seems like a lot to me.

with no new acquisitions and just keeping their core i think the wings might be 15th in the east. somewhere around there. likely not as bad as cbj.

So you think they would jump around four spots in the draft based on this strategy?

 

[DamonDRW]

Too much depends on the lottery and luck..

Take the old rivalry partner - Colorado.

They were irrelevant for 10+ years since 2003 even longer. People are quickly to forget it. Even made the playoffs in 2008, I clearly remember that because of Franzen. They drafted some good players but lacked a competent GM.

Then,

1. They got lucky (actually I believe they deserved after all that) in the lottery with their 1st and 2nd in real stars MacKinnon and Landeskog

2. They got absolutely lucky to get superstar D in Makar (somewhat unnatural for his position on the draft) and 40+ goal scorer in Rantanen at 9th

3. They had competent GM that did not waste the opportunity.

Without any of these three points they are still a middle of the pack team just like Buffalo, Edmonton, NYI, Nashville, Detroit, etc that had only one out of these three points.

You need luck to build a contender and it should come in bunches.

 

[dirtydanglez]

So you think they would jump around four spots in the draft based on this strategy?

if thats where 15th in the east drafts than yes.