When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[norrisnick]

You really think a 5 year deal to a 40 point center is good value?

I'm a Habs fan, I know Chiarot's strengths and weaknesses. If you're acquiring him for off the ice reasons, there were and are cheaper ways to do it.

And my point was, there are easier ways to get veteran leaders than give them big money UFA deals.

You also end up with 10+ years by never getting that elite talent. Popular teams brought out as cautionary tales against tanking weren't actually tanking a lot of those years, they were bringing in vets to fit the culture.

And if you think the old Detroit model or what the Ducks did is at all translatable to building a winner now, then go ahead. Personally, teams than benefitted from accruing talent pre-cap or taking advantage of the institution of a cap don't seem like models that work nowadays.

Criticism isn't a bad thing. Its ok to like the leadership of the team but criticize decisions or parts of the plan.

I'm fine with criticism. It just needs to make sense.

A 5 year deal for a guy that is a reliable middle six center/winger that can play both special teams is fine. It doesn't hurt. Chiarot is worse than advertised on the ice, but he's there to be a physical leader on the blue line and a vocal leader in the room. He can be buried once we get better.

That and the Wings did have to 1. Field a roster and 2. Be cap compliant. By being a bit heavy they had the bubble to be able to sell off a bit at the deadline. And since it hasn't happened I get the sense that Ilitch isn't keen on spending on dead contracts. He'd prefer a semi competitive roster as he has a brand new building to fill.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Detroit will not be competitive until their young core takes it to that next level. Until then, signing these random side kicks will not help.

At this point, I feel like Larkin is reaching his max potential, I think 80ish points may be his top ceiling. I don't seem him hitting 90+ unless other players around him start playing crazy. Seider/Raymond still have a lot of room to grow, and the rest of the youth are a bunch of question marks imo. I understand the reasons for getting rid of the likes of Bertuzzi/Vrana, but these guys were quality skillful players and this feels like a semi-reset move. Going to be a while until the Wings compete for a playoff spot.

Bert was problematic for resigning, Vrana there were off ice related reasons that will most likely never see the light of day underscoring his trade. Hronek, I'm not sure why he was traded but if I had to guess is Detroit sold high on an asset having an above average year.

At the end of the day though, teams have to be above the cap floor and if a bunch of your team is on ELCs, that cap floor is going to be hard to achieve plus still need to fill out a roster regardless.

 

[Captain Mountain]

None of the UFAs Yzerman signed last year were "Big Money", that combined with Detroit having an abundance of cap space means that nothing and no one is being impeded from being signed.

How many times are you going to move the goal post? Go watch the habs suck for the next god knows how long, having a Cinderella run in a screwed up season as your only real claim to fame in 30 years is what you should be bitching about instead of worrying about anything Detroit does.

I haven't moved the goalpost one inch.

And I'm perfectly happy criticizing the team I watch, why aren't you?

Again, I'm not particularly concerned about Detroit on way or another, because they appear to be the most directionless team in the division. But I am confused why the notion of criticizing the team is such a taboo among fans.

Its clear I hit a nerve though and you've gone from failing to justifying for your position to lazy and dumb attacks that you think will hit a nerve. Don't worry though, the Wings remind me more of the Habs of the last 30 years than any team in the NHL, so you'll be enjoying what Habs fans have for a good long while.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I'm fine with criticism. It just needs to make sense.

A 5 year deal for a guy that is a reliable middle six center/winger that can play both special teams is fine. It doesn't hurt. Chiarot is worse than advertised on the ice, but he's there to be a physical leader on the blue line and a vocal leader in the room. He can be buried once we get better.

That and the Wings did have to 1. Field a roster and 2. Be cap compliant. By being a bit heavy they had the bubble to be able to sell off a bit at the deadline. And since it hasn't happened I get the sense that Ilitch isn't keen on spending on dead contracts. He'd prefer a semi competitive roster as he has a brand new building to fill.

If those are your standards, then fine. But others have higher standards. And frankly, if Chiarot's contract doesn't deserve any criticsim is the standard, then I'm not sure what exactly does.

 

[SuperScript29]

Bert was problematic for resigning, Vrana there were off ice related reasons that will most likely never see the light of day underscoring his trade. Hronek, I'm not sure why he was traded but if I had to guess is Detroit sold high on an asset having an above average year.

At the end of the day though, teams have to be above the cap floor and if a bunch of your team is on ELCs, that cap floor is going to be hard to achieve plus still need to fill out a roster regardless.

Problematic or not, that's the kind of skill you need to compete for the playoffs.

 

[norrisnick]

If those are your standards, then fine. But others have higher standards. And frankly, if Chiarot's contract doesn't deserve any criticsim is the standard, then I'm not sure what exactly does.

Chiarot is bad on the ice, but he's not blocking anything by the time the Wings intend to be good. It's a warm body with leadership qualities. He's not a foundational piece so focusing the criticism on him and/or him being Yzerman's biggest mistake is a complete whatever. It's not 7 years. It's not $8m+. He's a 4/5 D paid like a 3/4. Bad? Yup. Does it matter? Nope.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not buying this whole "leadership" quality. Sounds flimsy. I'm sure Yzerman would love to have that one back. 3 more years for a declining (soon to be) 32 year old defenseman. No thanks.

Not the end of the world, just not a contract anyone feels great about.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I mean, I'm not a Wings fan, I'm a fan of a rival. I'm pretty ok with Yzerman because the Atlantic is tough enough as it is and I'd be critical of the "Yzerplan" if I were a fan because other teams are doing it better.

And you can tank harder while still building a culture. You can still build a culture and rebuild without signing a bunch of older UFAs.

But here’s the thing: for Detroit to tank hard a number of things would have needed to happen…

1. Larkin and Seider needed to miss most or all of the games. Outside of career altering injuries or trading them that wasn’t going to happen.
2. Detroit would have signed nobody in the off-season except replacement level players. They had so much cap they HAD to sign (if I remember correct) 22 million in free agents at minimum just to reach the floor. And if they didn’t sign who they did then there are no Bertuzzi or Hronek or Vrana trades for cap reasons.
3. Building a team culture out of transient replacement level players and kids getting caved 3 out of every 4 shifts. You can’t simultaneously tank AND build a winning culture. You can’t put only rookies and replacement level journeymen into your lineup and expect the kids to be alright. They need savvy vets around them. Guys who know what the right things to do are when the game isn’t going your way.

Nobody is saying to not criticize the Yzerplan, but what you’re saying is wrong. Your idea might work in NHL23 but in the real world it’s how you end up in perpetual Arizona or pre-McDavid Oiler territory.

The wings have 4 1sts in the next 2 drafts. 3 2nds in the next draft. They’ll also have a ton of cap space and a very deep prospect pool. Any number of things can be done to improve the team next season including trades and free agents. Can NJD afford both Meier AND bratt? Can NYR afford Tarasenko if Kane stays? What goalies want a big raise? Or wingers? The Kings stole Fiala for a 1st and Brock Faber. Why can’t Detroit do the same with another team in cap hell?

 

[norrisnick]

Not buying this whole "leadership" quality. Sounds flimsy. I'm sure Yzerman would love to have that one back. 3 more years for a declining (soon to be) 32 year old defenseman. No thanks.

Not the end of the world, just not a contract anyone feels great about.

He instantly got an A. He's basically the new Marc Staal for the Wings.

It's more the annoyance that he's treated as some sort of gotcha. "AHA! Your 4th defenseman is overpaid and bad! Yzerman is not a god and sucks!"

 

[dekelikekocur]

I haven't moved the goalpost one inch.

And I'm perfectly happy criticizing the team I watch, why aren't you?

Again, I'm not particularly concerned about Detroit on way or another, because they appear to be the most directionless team in the division. But I am confused why the notion of criticizing the team is such a taboo among fans.

Its clear I hit a nerve though and you've gone from failing to justifying for your position to lazy and dumb attacks that you think will hit a nerve. Don't worry though, the Wings remind me more of the Habs of the last 30 years than any team in the NHL, so you'll be enjoying what Habs fans have for a good long while.

First it was they needed to tank more, then it was your misunderstanding with why players were not being traded, then it was your inflated idea of how much we spent on UFAs and their contract lengths. You've been intellectually dishonest the entire conversation. No one spends the amount of time you do in this thread if they don't care about Detroit, I on the other hand don't care at all about the Habs and out of my collective 200ish posts in 10 years, have probably mentioned them at most 2 or 3 times, that's not caring about another team, you're obsessed with the Wings and probably pissed off that Yzerman didn't come save the Habs as a most likely culprit.

You haven't hit a nerve, you've literally changed your complaint after every rebuttal to your asinine view. Every time you try to make a point I've responded to it and you've had no counter argument and have only shifted the talk, thus moving the goal posts.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

The impression I get is that the Red Wings signed a few free agents and made some trades last offseason in order to respect the business side of things for a large period of the current season. The people in charge of the organization then gave Yzerman the green light to blow this up at the trade deadline because of the talent available in the upcoming draft.

I also think he's come to the conclusion that all these Swedish players they've drafted so far haven't really been that great. Some are really good prospects but I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Håkan Andersson less influence in the coming drafts.

THIS is your take? A top 5 prospect pool as ranked by people that are paid to write about these things and generally know what they’re talking about. Edvinsson has looked pretty good. Raymond is in a sophomore slump but is still the 2nd highest scorer in his draft. Kasper had a solid year in the SHL where he’s been praised up and down the league. Seider, while not strictly an SHL product, just won rookie of the year and after being liberated from Chiarot has gone back to looking like a top 10-15D in the league. Then there’s late rounders like Wallinder, Liam Dower-Nilsson and Soderblom looking good this year and you think that Yzerman is upset and will give Detroit’s best scout less influence?

 

[norrisnick]

THIS is your take? A top 5 prospect pool as ranked by people that are paid to write about these things and generally know what they’re talking about. Edvinsson has looked pretty good. Raymond is in a sophomore slump but is still the 2nd highest scorer in his draft. Kasper had a solid year in the SHL where he’s been praised up and down the league. Seider, while not strictly an SHL product, just won rookie of the year and after being liberated from Chiarot has gone back to looking like a top 10-15D in the league. Then there’s late rounders like Wallinder, Liam Dower-Nilsson and Soderblom looking good this year and you think that Yzerman is upset and will give Detroit’s best scout less influence?

You forgot Jonny Burgers

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

You forgot Jonny Burgers

I was focusing only on the picks under Yzerman but that’s another one that stands out.

It’s unlikely Detroit drafts from Sweden in the 1st this year just because of the way the draft is shaking out. That won’t mean Yzerman lost faith in Hakan. It will just mean that this year’s top 15 has more Americans and Canadians in it than 2022 and 2021. Thanks to this thread I’m half expecting to hear idiots claim that Detroit is done with Sweden if they pick Ryan Leonard now.

 

[Kamaya Painters]

THIS is your take? A top 5 prospect pool as ranked by people that are paid to write about these things and generally know what they’re talking about. Edvinsson has looked pretty good. Raymond is in a sophomore slump but is still the 2nd highest scorer in his draft. Kasper had a solid year in the SHL where he’s been praised up and down the league. Seider, while not strictly an SHL product, just won rookie of the year and after being liberated from Chiarot has gone back to looking like a top 10-15D in the league. Then there’s late rounders like Wallinder, Liam Dower-Nilsson and Soderblom looking good this year and you think that Yzerman is upset and will give Detroit’s best scout less influence?

First of all; don't put words into my mouth. I clearly mentioned they've got some excellent prospects in/from Sweden.. Seider and Raymond are two obvious examples. Seider, however, only spent a year in Sweden. He's a product of German hockey. Kasper is a good player as well but he has three seasons in Sweden. I hope he takes a major step towards becoming an important player for the Red Wings but none of these players are a safe bet besides possibly Seider. I might be completely wrong (and time will tell since nobody really knows yet) but I think Seider is the only player who'll become someone who can carry the team when it matters in the coming years. Raymond is an excellent player but just like so many other of the Swedish players he has to work a lot on his game in order to become what the organization expects him to become; someone who carries the team as a core player.

Detroit are in need of drafting a player that'll turn into a superstar and give the team a lift. Yzerman and his group of co-workers are well aware of this and it's probably why they gave up this season. They know this isn't a short-term project.

I hope all of them pan out to be great players for Detroit. It's not a matter of wishing bad upon them, just an observation where Håkan Andersson has a lot of influence and the Red Wings are going for a lot of players who're part of Frölunda or have been part of Frölunda because he has inside on these players due to his role at the club; Raymond, Edvinsson, Söderblom, Niederbach, Dower-Nilsson and previously Berglund.

Andersson has realistically been a bit overrated for a while now, as it appears that everybody has caught up on their European scouting as opposed to the time when Andersson could swoop in and grab a stud in the late 1990s/early 2000s. The Canucks swiping Alex Edler when the Wings thought nobody else had heard of him appears to represent a "changing of the guard" moment in that regard (although they still took a quality player in Franzen with that pick), but since then, it's not like it was.

I don't think it's fair to criticize Håkan Andersson because of the Canucks drafting Edler. Detroit lost Edler because the Canucks scout simply happened to hear Red Wings were going to draft him from a friend of his. That was unlucky for Andersson and he still got an excellent player.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't think it's fair to criticize Håkan Andersson because of the Canucks drafting Edler. Detroit lost Edler because the Canucks scout simply happened to hear Red Wings were going to draft him from a friend of his. That was unlucky for Andersson and he still got an excellent player.

It wasn't a critique of Andersson, it was an example of how everyone else has caught up on European scouting and the Red Wing don't have a major edge, if any edge at all, in that area anymore.

 

[Djp]

But here’s the thing: for Detroit to tank hard a number of things would have needed to happen…

1. Larkin and Seider needed to miss most or all of the games. Outside of career altering injuries or trading them that wasn’t going to happen.
2. Detroit would have signed nobody in the off-season except replacement level players. They had so much cap they HAD to sign (if I remember correct) 22 million in free agents at minimum just to reach the floor. And if they didn’t sign who they did then there are no Bertuzzi or Hronek or Vrana trades for cap reasons.
3. Building a team culture out of transient replacement level players and kids getting caved 3 out of every 4 shifts. You can’t simultaneously tank AND build a winning culture. You can’t put only rookies and replacement level journeymen into your lineup and expect the kids to be alright. They need savvy vets around them. Guys who know what the right things to do are when the game isn’t going your way.

Nobody is saying to not criticize the Yzerplan, but what you’re saying is wrong. Your idea might work in NHL23 but in the real world it’s how you end up in perpetual Arizona or pre-McDavid Oiler territory.

The wings have 4 1sts in the next 2 drafts. 3 2nds in the next draft. They’ll also have a ton of cap space and a very deep prospect pool. Any number of things can be done to improve the team next season including trades and free agents. Can NJD afford both Meier AND bratt? Can NYR afford Tarasenko if Kane stays? What goalies want a big raise? Or wingers? The Kings stole Fiala for a 1st and Brock Faber. Why can’t Detroit do the same with another team in cap hell?

i wouldn't make the statement that they have a deep prospect pool. I measure that by players drafted outside the top 20.

NJ can afford both and still have $10M in space.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

i wouldn't make the statement that they have a deep prospect pool. I measure that by players drafted outside the top 20.

NJ can afford both and still have $10M in space.

10 mil in space with that to spend between their 3rd and 4th lines while needing a solid backup goalie and an entire 2nd pair. NJD keeping both hurts other areas of their lineup. Both Bratt and Meier will make north of 7.5 mil. In Meier’s case probably close to 9.

New Jersey Devils Salary Cap, Draft Picks, and Player Contracts - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Also your definition of a deep prospect pool is incomplete. Why discount players picked before 20? Detroit has plenty of good ones there, too. Mazur, Buium, Johansson, Hanas, Wallinder, Soderblom, Cossa, Dower-Nilsson, Viro, Sebrango is a strong pool.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I also think he's come to the conclusion that all these Swedish players they've drafted so far haven't really been that great. Some are really good prospects but I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Håkan Andersson less influence in the coming drafts.

First of all; don't put words into my mouth.

My dude, I didn’t put words in your mouth. I literally quoted you.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Raymond is an excellent player but just like so many other of the Swedish players he has to work a lot on his game in order to become what the organization expects him to become; someone who carries the team as a core player.

Honest question; what is the meaning of including the word "swedish" in that sentence? Do american, canadian, russian, german, mexican or hungarian players not need to work on their game?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Seider is not Swedish, he was only loaned to Sweden due to the pandemic. He played his whole career for German youth (and eventually the main) team before making the NHL outside of that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It wasn't a critique of Andersson, it was an example of how everyone else has caught up on European scouting and the Red Wing don't have a major edge, if any edge at all, in that area anymore.

Scouting is obviously not what it was in the 90s anymore. But the Red Wings (Holland) also didn't use their best picks on european prospects for a long time (as I pointed out but you ignored). You simply can't expect to have "an edge" on anyone if you only use 4th rounders and later.

Since the Wings shifted towards heavier drafting out of europe, it does look like they have an edge on most teams:

 

[WarriorofTime]

Scouting is obviously not what it was in the 90s anymore. But the Red Wings (Holland) also didn't use their best picks on european prospects for a long time (as I pointed out but you ignored). You simply can't expect to have "an edge" on anyone if you only use 4th rounders and later.

it's possible they took less because their picks were getting swiped more frequently

Also not sure how there being 2 fewer rounds starting in 05 factors in as well. Draft was 9 rounds between 1995-2004 (and going back before that, there used to be 12 rounds).

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Not on long term deals, no. The cheapest way to bring in vets is what either what teams like Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, etc. have done and get teams to pay you to take a veteran or do what teams like Seattle and Carolina have done and get vets on decent contracts for basically nothing.

And I'm not even saying Yzerman isn't a good GM. I'm saying he's done things and there are aspects of his approach that deserve criticism. Its the pushback on the idea any sort of criticsm (combined with hype he's had on here) that reeks of a cultish attitude.

Yzerman has turned over literally the entire roster with the exception of Larkin since Holland left.

Like, what more could you possibly expect him to have done at this point lol

 

[Pavels Dog]

it's possible they took less because their picks were getting swiped more frequently

Possible, but begs the question if all of a sudden their picks stopped getting swiped when Yzerman took over.

 

[Nipsey]

He’s doing a fine job, not great but decent enough. At the end of the day he was left with a mess created by Ken Holland.

The drafts between 2015-2018 were awful.

Svechnikov over Eriksson Ek/Konecny/Boeser

Cholowski over staying at 16 and picking Chychrun

Rasmussen over Suzuki/Necas

Zadina over Q. Hughes

2019-2021 all look like great picks since Yzerman took over. Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson.

He has signed some bad contracts but my biggest criticism would be not trading Larkin as he will be in his 30’s and on the decline once the team will compete if they ever do, which they won’t if they don’t get that elusive franchise center.

They need a McDavid/Matthews/Mackinnon/Pettersson/Hughes/Barkov level center in the worst way. They needed to bottom out completely for a couple more years. They are the one team with the most to lose if they don’t win the lottery this year.