When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Pavels Dog]

Again, the "Yzerplan", has never been about tanking or lottery luck. If we're being real here, its about getting lucky with later picks.

Source?

Yzerman chose to go big in free agency this season and all it largely lead to was finish around where they are right now. And the guys he gave term to (Copp, Chiarot and Husso) don't really look like they'll be able to perform up to their contracts either. Yzerman is a good GM, but the "Yzerplan" and some of his decisions absolutely deserve to be criticized.

You'll have to clarify if you think those guys are so bad that they're not worth their contracts, or so good that they prevented the team from getting a higher pick.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Source?


You'll have to clarify if you think those guys are so bad that they're not worth their contracts, or so good that they prevented the team from getting a higher pick.

They're so bad that they're not worth their contracts.

Perron, Walman (and to a far lesser extent, Kubalik) are the ones preventing the team from getting a higher pick.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Kucherov, Pastrnak, Tkachuk, Robertson, and Karlsson were all drafted outside the top-5. That's half of the top-10 scorers.

Burns was a 1st round pick

Ahh my mistake, I thought Tkachuk was drafted 5th after Puljujaarvi.

Still very top-heavy wtih top-5 (or 6) picks:

1- McDavid
3 - Leon
58 - Kuch
6 - Tkachuk
25 - Pasta
39 - Robertson
1 - MacK
1- Nuge
5- Petterson
15 - EK65
4 - MM
10 - Ranta
1 - Hughes


Either way. If you wanna grab elite offensive talent, the odds are much better when drafting in the top-5 then the rest of the field by a SIGNIFICANT margin.


And building a contending team without elite talent is VERY difficult. Detroit will have to fluke into it like the rest of the league is trying to do.

 

[newfy]

Oilers and Sabres are examples of two teams that had at times aggressively acquired talent to expedite their rebuild to shelter the "kids" and it backfired on them spectacularly and set them back.

But even if that weren't the case, what does winning 35 games instead of 25 games establishes a better culture? You don't think even the teams most overtly tanking aren't thinking and talking about culture consistently? Tanking is management's job. Culture is in the locker room. They are not incongruous focuses.

I would actually say Buffalo and Edmonton are/were prime examples of teams that built major cultures of losing and that culture hung around to the point that it took Edmonton getting a future top 5 player of all time for one of them to even win a couple playoff series.

Buffalo has been irrelevant for almost 15 years, multiple high picks including one of the greatest American prospects ever and their culture of losing is a big reason why he isnt even there anymore. And for all this chest pounding about Buffalo, despite the fact that Detroit sold a top line forward and top 4 D at the dead line, the Sabres are a whopping 2 points ahead of Detroit in the standings right now....

Who are these vets that bombed either of these teams and they had to restart. If anything I would say it was the complete opposite in Edmonton at least and they had no vets to mentor all their first overall picks. Pretty sure the party culture on those Edmonton teams was well established in the media as well. No leadership

They're so bad that they're not worth their contracts.

Perron, Walman (and to a far lesser extent, Kubalik) are the ones preventing the team from getting a higher pick.

Wait am I misreading this? You dont think Walman is worth his contract? Hes 27 and an absolute stud, playing on one of the best pairings in the entire league

 

[Kamaya Painters]

The impression I get is that the Red Wings signed a few free agents and made some trades last offseason in order to respect the business side of things for a large period of the current season. The people in charge of the organization then gave Yzerman the green light to blow this up at the trade deadline because of the talent available in the upcoming draft.

I also think he's come to the conclusion that all these Swedish players they've drafted so far haven't really been that great. Some are really good prospects but I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Håkan Andersson less influence in the coming drafts.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Oilers and Sabres are examples of two teams that had at times aggressively acquired talent to expedite their rebuild to shelter the "kids" and it backfired on them spectacularly and set them back.

But even if that weren't the case, what does winning 35 games instead of 25 games establishes a better culture? You don't think even the teams most overtly tanking aren't thinking and talking about culture consistently? Tanking is management's job. Culture is in the locker room. They are not incongruous focuses.

Leaving your players out to dry in a losing situation sours them. Hitting rock bottom and not making improvements reflects on a wishing on a star approach and players want to see progress or they'll bail for greener pastures. Managing the locker room IS part of management. Setting expectations, showing that you're walking the walk and not just blowing smoke up their ass shows the commitment on the management side. Players will understand a lot but just like anyone else except someone who doesn't belong in the first place, lack of progress, lack of goals, lack of trajectory will result in your talent leaving for elsewhere.

Oilers and Sabres both tossed kids into the lineup that should have been eased in and in some cases left off the team, Rags, Habs, and CBJ have done the same with some of their prospects, rushed them in and left them out to dry.

If you want the right culture and commitment of your players, you put them in a situation to win, you nurture their growth. It's very much like having a kid.

Again, the "Yzerplan", has never been about tanking or lottery luck. If we're being real here, its about getting lucky with later picks.

Yzerman chose to go big in free agency this season and all it largely lead to was finish around where they are right now. And the guys he gave term to (Copp, Chiarot and Husso) don't really look like they'll be able to perform up to their contracts either. Yzerman is a good GM, but the "Yzerplan" and some of his decisions absolutely deserve to be criticized.

Yzernman signing some middling stopgaps on manageable contracts isn't going big, there were spaces to fill to be able to put up a roster that was cap compliant without feeding the kids to the wolves. Copp is doing fine, Husso has exceeded expectations. Chiarot was the only one that really missed and it's still only 3 more years (and most likely less as Yzerman will shed the contract at some point).

 

[WarriorofTime]

I also think he's come to the conclusion that all these Swedish players they've drafted so far haven't really been that great. Some are really good prospects but I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Håkan Andersson less influence in the coming drafts.

Andersson has realistically been a bit overrated for a while now, as it appears that everybody has caught up on their European scouting as opposed to the time when Andersson could swoop in and grab a stud in the late 1990s/early 2000s. The Canucks swiping Alex Edler when the Wings thought nobody else had heard of him appears to represent a "changing of the guard" moment in that regard (although they still took a quality player in Franzen with that pick), but since then, it's not like it was.

1998 - 2004 (7 years) (min. 250 NHL games):
Jiri Fischer (25th), Pavel Datsyuk (171st), Henrik Zetterberg (210th), Niklas Kronwall (29th), Tomas Kopecky (38th), Jiri Hudler (58th), Tomas Fleischmann (63rd), Valtteri Filppula (95th), Jonathan Ericsson (291st), Johan Franzen (97th)

2005-2016 (12 year) (min. 250 NHL games):
Jakub Kindl (19th), Gustav Nyquist (121st), Tomas Tatar (60th), Calle Jarnkrok (51st), Petr Mrazek (141st), Mattias Janmark (79th), Filip Hronek (53rd)

Dude deserves to be in the Hall of Fame for basically rebuilding the Red Wings on the fly without them ever dipping out of contention based on just how far ahead of the field he was in terms of European scouting. However, it just wasn't sustainable and the Red Wings don't have an edge anymore in European scouting. They have some promising ones in the subsequent drafts, but the only ones super confident in were very high draft picks.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I would actually say Buffalo and Edmonton are/were prime examples of teams that built major cultures of losing and that culture hung around to the point that it took Edmonton getting a future top 5 player of all time for one of them to even win a couple playoff series.

Buffalo has been irrelevant for almost 15 years, multiple high picks including one of the greatest American prospects ever and their culture of losing is a big reason why he isnt even there anymore. And for all this chest pounding about Buffalo, despite the fact that Detroit sold a top line forward and top 4 D at the dead line, the Sabres are a whopping 2 points ahead of Detroit in the standings right now....

Who are these vets that bombed either of these teams and they had to restart. If anything I would say it was the complete opposite in Edmonton at least and they had no vets to mentor all their first overall picks. Pretty sure the party culture on those Edmonton teams was well established in the media as well. No leadership

Buffalo was a playoff team around 15 years ago. But for clarity:

Buffalo: Okposo, Ehrhoff and Leino stand out as UFA signings, but the vets they targeted in trades were bad too. Even the vets that were brought in to protect the young guys and for the culture (Gionta, Gorges, Leopold, etc.) didn't actually help the culture. Buffalo's other issue was that they flubbed a ton of picks.

Edmonton: The Oilers are the different case, since they were often so capstrapped paying overpaid vets during the beginning of the McDavid era that they couldn't ice a competitive team even if they wanted to. Lucic, Russell, Ference, etc. Edmonton's other issue was they never really added a ton of picks in the draft. Go look through their last 15 drafts and see how many times they had extra picks in the first 2 rounds.

I wouldn't even push that this hard a Red Wings fan either, since they've got the 2nd longest playoff drought in the league and I'd bet on the Sabres making the playoffs before Detroit.

My point is, culture =/= bringing in veterans. Its way more complicated than that.

Wait am I misreading this? You dont think Walman is worth his contract? Hes 27 and an absolute stud, playing on one of the best pairings in the entire league

You are correct in that you are misreading it. Chiarot and Copp are bad contracts, Perron and Walman are preventing Detroit from finishing lower.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I would actually say Buffalo and Edmonton are/were prime examples of teams that built major cultures of losing and that culture hung around to the point that it took Edmonton getting a future top 5 player of all time for one of them to even win a couple playoff series.

Buffalo has been irrelevant for almost 15 years, multiple high picks including one of the greatest American prospects ever and their culture of losing is a big reason why he isnt even there anymore. And for all this chest pounding about Buffalo, despite the fact that Detroit sold a top line forward and top 4 D at the dead line, the Sabres are a whopping 2 points ahead of Detroit in the standings right now....

Who are these vets that bombed either of these teams and they had to restart. If anything I would say it was the complete opposite in Edmonton at least and they had no vets to mentor all their first overall picks. Pretty sure the party culture on those Edmonton teams was well established in the media as well. No leadership

I think Buffalo's biggest issue is that they just missed on too many draft picks. Even where drafting NHL players, they weren't drafting enough quality ones, just depth guys. You'd like more than just Eichel as a guy that feels like a player than can be a core piece on a contender level player from the 2009 - 2017 drafts (or at least that sort of piece before they hit UFA aged years).

 

[Captain Mountain]

Leaving your players out to dry in a losing situation sours them. Hitting rock bottom and not making improvements reflects on a wishing on a star approach and players want to see progress or they'll bail for greener pastures. Managing the locker room IS part of management. Setting expectations, showing that you're walking the walk and not just blowing smoke up their ass shows the commitment on the management side. Players will understand a lot but just like anyone else except someone who doesn't belong in the first place, lack of progress, lack of goals, lack of trajectory will result in your talent leaving for elsewhere.

Oilers and Sabres both tossed kids into the lineup that should have been eased in and in some cases left off the team, Rags, Habs, and CBJ have done the same with some of their prospects, rushed them in and left them out to dry.

If you want the right culture and commitment of your players, you put them in a situation to win, you nurture their growth. It's very much like having a kid.


Yzernman signing some middling stopgaps on manageable contracts isn't going big, there were spaces to fill to be able to put up a roster that was cap compliant without feeding the kids to the wolves. Copp is doing fine, Husso has exceeded expectations. Chiarot was the only one that really missed and it's still only 3 more years (and most likely less as Yzerman will shed the contract at some point).

There are easier and more effective ways ways to bring in veterans.

I just don't understand this cult some people have with Yzerman. Detroit has the 2nd longest playoff drought in the NHL and Yzerman has been around for almost 4 full seasons now. Its frankly unreasonable to not want to criticize his plan at all.

 

[WaW]

Alot of annoying and useless idealism in this thread.

You can't accomplish anything in this league without a franchise 1C. You certainly can't win a cup without one, and as Red Wings fans we don't aspire to become the 2015-2019 Blue Jackets where "winning a round" is treated like the holy grail of hockey.

The Yzerplan is good because it's pragmatic. I'm sorry but 1C is just more consequential to winning a Cup in hockey than starting QB is to winning a super bowl, and I can go back to the end of the 04-05 lockout and demonstrate that with lists.

Franchise 1Cs don't grow on trees. They're usually gifted to teams in the draft lottery (it's absurd how incredibly important winning a lottery is to opening a cup window in this league) or by taking advantage of all-time bad GMs in lopsided trades (i.e. when St Louis picked up Ryan O'Reilly)

 

[WarriorofTime]

You can't accomplish anything in this league without a franchise 1C. You certainly can't win a cup without one, and as Red Wings fans we don't aspire to become the 2015-2019 Blue Jackets where "winning a round" is treated like the holy grail of hockey.

So is Dylan Larkin a franchise 1C? If he is, then the Wings had their franchise 1C on their roster before even rebuilding and it's a bit baffling that it's taken this long even with him there all 7 years (and only now hitting UFA). If he isn't (say a good 2C that's playing up a spot out of necessity), it's a bit surprising he was never traded and was re-signed a big dollar UFA deal which will likely prevent any future tanking.

Maybe a bit ironically, but the Red Wings actually do seem pretty well situated moving forward to be that sort of lower-end Playoff team with their current core where "winning a round" is probably about the best they'll aspire towards. To be a Contender, they're going to need some major boinks from non-premium draft positions or "by taking advantage of all-time bad GMs in lopsided trades"

 

[WaW]

So is Dylan Larkin a franchise 1C? If he is, then the Wings had their franchise 1C on their roster before even rebuilding and it's a bit baffling that it's taken this long even with him there all 7 years (and only now hitting UFA). If he isn't, it's a bit surprising he was never traded and was re-signed a big dollar UFA deal which will likely prevent any future tanking.

No.

If you're hung up on Larkin to invalidate my point then you didn't read my post correctly.

Again, going back to the end of that lockout, you won't find a single cup winner where Dylan Larkin would be the dominant, game-changing 1C on that team. At WORST you need Ryan O'Reilly having the year of his career, winning the Selke and Conn Smythe. That's the bare minimum.

 

[WarriorofTime]

No.

If you're hung up on Larkin to invalidate my point then you didn't read my post correctly.

Again, going back to the end of that lockout, you won't find a single cup winner where Dylan Larkin would be the dominant, game-changing 1C on that team. At WORST you need Ryan O'Reilly having the year of his career, winning the Selke and Conn Smythe. That's the bare minimum.

Not invalidating your point on the 1C, questioning it in relation to the "Yzerplan" generally.

 

[WaW]

Not invalidating your point on the 1C, questioning it in relation to the "Yzerplan" generally.

Sorry - I missed the bit about "why sign him to that deal of not a 1C"

Why not though? He's still a tremendous player and it's very much in line with deals similar to the 2nd and 3rd highest paid forwards on contenders, for which he is of equivalent quality.

Trading him instead of extending wasn't going to get us a lottery pick either. He's still a key piece with likely several productive years left.

 

[kranuck]

The Yzerplan hasn’t spun as bad as nearly the other failed rebuilds like Arizona or Vancouver. Other teams have outshined Detroit in their failures.

Canucks got Hughes, Pettersson, and Demko out of their failure.

Benning was so inept he could build a tanking team while trying to be good. Then he managed to only screw up 2-3 top 10 picks out of 5.

 

[dekelikekocur]

There are easier and more effective ways ways to bring in veterans.

I just don't understand this cult some people have with Yzerman. Detroit has the 2nd longest playoff drought in the NHL and Yzerman has been around for almost 4 full seasons now. Its frankly unreasonable to not want to criticize his plan at all.

Signing them for free is literally the cheapest way to bring in vets.

It's not a cult, when Yzerman took over the team was riddled with bad contracts and shit players, with minimal trade capital. Most teams going into a rebuild have aging vets that they can offload for draft capital, Detroit had next to nothing unless you think Abdelkader was going to fetch something or Nielsen?

Detroit Red Wings 2019 Roster | StatMuse

The 2019 Detroit Red Wings roster for the NHL regular season and playoffs

www.statmuse.com

That's a list of Detroit's 2018-2019 roster. Larkin is basically the only trade asset at that time that could been traded for anything semi decent. Yzerman did get what he could for what was sellable, Bert and Hronek both fetched more this year in trade than they would have back then.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I also think he's come to the conclusion that all these Swedish players they've drafted so far haven't really been that great. Some are really good prospects but I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Håkan Andersson less influence in the coming drafts.

Uhh... excuse me what? This might flat out be the worst take in this thread so far.

1998 - 2004 (7 years) (min. 250 NHL games):
Jiri Fischer (25th), Pavel Datsyuk (171st), Henrik Zetterberg (210th), Niklas Kronwall (29th), Tomas Kopecky (38th), Jiri Hudler (58th), Tomas Fleischmann (63rd), Valtteri Filppula (95th), Jonathan Ericsson (291st), Johan Franzen (97th)

2005-2016 (12 year) (min. 250 NHL games):
Jakub Kindl (19th), Gustav Nyquist (121st), Tomas Tatar (60th), Calle Jarnkrok (51st), Petr Mrazek (141st), Mattias Janmark (79th), Filip Hronek (53rd)

Kind of a bad comparison (btw both Kindl and Mrazek were drafted out of NA).

98 to 2004, Wings drafted 34 players out of Europe (give or take, quick count)
2005 to 2016, Wings drafted 28 players out of Europe (again, give or take)

2005 to 2016, Håkan Andersson had only 4 picks in the first 2 rounds:

Dick Axelsson (bust)
Tomas Tatar (great pick)
Calle Järnkrok (good pick)
Filip Hronek (great pick)

Yeah, no kidding no one is gonna dig up Zetterbergs and Datsyuks in the 6th and 7th rounds with any regularity. But this just highlights one of Holland's mis-steps. For some reason he gave less trust to Andersson and the european scouting staff post-lockout. Whatever the reason was, it was a massive mistake and if you compare Detroit's 2005-2016 european drafting to their NA drafting, you'll see that Andersson & Co. were still outperforming the NA staff despite not having much to work with.

Is it a coincidence that Yzerman immediately identified that he needed to rely on the Wings european scouting staff, and that the results have been terrific so far?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Signing them for free is literally the cheapest way to bring in vets.

It's not a cult, when Yzerman took over the team was riddled with bad contracts and shit players, with minimal trade capital. Most teams going into a rebuild have aging vets that they can offload for draft capital, Detroit had next to nothing unless you think Abdelkader was going to fetch something or Nielsen?

Detroit Red Wings 2019 Roster | StatMuse

The 2019 Detroit Red Wings roster for the NHL regular season and playoffs

www.statmuse.com

That's a list of Detroit's 2018-2019 roster. Larkin is basically the only trade asset at that time that could been traded for anything semi decent. Yzerman did get what he could for what was sellable, Bert and Hronek both fetched more this year in trade than they would have back then.

Not on long term deals, no. The cheapest way to bring in vets is what either what teams like Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, etc. have done and get teams to pay you to take a veteran or do what teams like Seattle and Carolina have done and get vets on decent contracts for basically nothing.

And I'm not even saying Yzerman isn't a good GM. I'm saying he's done things and there are aspects of his approach that deserve criticism. Its the pushback on the idea any sort of criticsm (combined with hype he's had on here) that reeks of a cultish attitude.

 

[norrisnick]

Not on long term deals, no. The cheapest way to bring in vets is what either what teams like Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, etc. have done and get teams to pay you to take a veteran or do what teams like Seattle and Carolina have done and get vets on decent contracts for basically nothing.

And I'm not even saying Yzerman isn't a good GM. I'm saying he's done things and there are aspects of his approach that deserve criticism. Its the pushback on the idea any sort of criticsm (combined with hype he's had on here) that reeks of a cultish attitude.

2-4yr deals aren't long term. And picking vets you like vs literal castoffs is better to give your young players the correct sort of help. Is it technically less asset efficient than taking X player from Y team, sure. But is that slight edge in assets worth it if you greatly prefer to have the kids playing with a guy like Perron vs a guy like... I don't know... Lucic?

This past offseason was a deliberate step forward away from the suck. The Wings have sucked for many years and the assets they have are what they are rolling with. Having the bulk of this season be in a much more competitive environment than the last 4+ years is greatly beneficial to the kids. It's a better growing environment. The only reason to continue the "tank" is if you think that the less than 10% chance at the top pick this summer matters more than the development of the players picked in '17, '18, '19, '20, '21, etc...

I guess, the pushback is on the basis that the criticism levied really doesn't matter. Or that the team building approach by the person laying the criticism is some correct truth on how to build a team. The only team to "successfully" tank themselves to a winner is Pittsburgh and the only reason they were "tanking" was because they were literally going bankrupt and couldn't afford their players. They weren't trying to build a winner. They just lucked into it with a 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd in 4 consecutive drafts with the Crosby cherry in the middle of that run and the salary cap coming out of the lockout to save them financially. Not saying you are supporting the tank, just that 9 times out of 10 that's the argument. "Should have tanked another year!" No team besides Pittsburgh (incidentally) has tanked themselves a winner. And it's frustrating to hear that that is the only way.

That and the vast majority of "trust the Yzerplan" nonsense isn't even coming from fans of teams he's GMed. It's posters/fans that are only superficially familiar with the goings on pumping up his tires so they can slash them in the future, which is happening now. Build up! Tear Down!

 

[Captain Mountain]

2-4yr deals aren't long term. And picking vets you like vs literal castoffs is better to give your young players the correct sort of help. Is it technically less asset efficient than taking X player from Y team, sure. But is that slight edge in assets worth it if you greatly prefer to have the kids playing with a guy like Perron vs a guy like... I don't know... Lucic?

This past offseason was a deliberate step forward away from the suck. The Wings have sucked for many years and the assets they have are what they are rolling with. Having the bulk of this season be in a much more competitive environment than the last 4+ years is greatly beneficial to the kids. It's a better growing environment. The only reason to continue the "tank" is if you think that the less than 10% chance at the top pick this summer matters more than the development of the players picked in '17, '18, '19, '20, '21, etc...

I guess, the pushback is on the basis that the criticism levied really doesn't matter. Or that the team building approach by the person laying the criticism is some correct truth on how to build a team. The only team to "successfully" tank themselves to a winner is Pittsburgh and the only reason they were "tanking" was because they were literally going bankrupt and couldn't afford their players. They weren't trying to build a winner. They just lucked into it with a 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd in 4 consecutive drafts with the Crosby cherry in the middle of that run and the salary cap coming out of the lockout to save them financially. Not saying you are supporting the tank, just that 9 times out of 10 that's the argument. "Should have tanked another year!" No team besides Pittsburgh (incidentally) has tanked themselves a winner. And it's frustrating to hear that that is the only way.

That and the vast majority of "trust the Yzerplan" nonsense isn't even coming from fans of teams he's GMed. It's posters/fans that are only superficially familiar with the goings on pumping up his tires so they can slash them in the future, which is happening now. Build up! Tear Down!

Perron's deal is not an issue apart from him leading a team to no-mans land. Its Chiarot and Copp contracts that are an issue. And what kids are we talking about here? Seider? The guy who's season Chiarot almost sunk? Raymond? He's had a bit of a sophmore slump? Zadina/Veleno/Berggren? I mean come on, if the defence against the idea of criticism is vehement defense, isn't that concerning?

And its coming from fans of the teams too, lets not pretend otherwise.

Plus, if we're talking about tanking, lets be clear - The only cup winners who have won in the salary cap era without drafting 1st or 2nd overall with their own picks are St. Louis and Boston. Pittsburgh isn't the exception there, they're closer to the rule.

 

[norrisnick]

Perron's deal is not an issue apart from him leading a team to no-mans land. Its Chiarot and Copp contracts that are an issue. And what kids are we talking about here? Seider? The guy who's season Chiarot almost sunk? Raymond? He's had a bit of a sophmore slump? Zadina/Veleno/Berggren? I mean come on, if the defence against the idea of criticism is vehement defense, isn't that concerning?

And its coming from fans of the teams too, lets not pretend otherwise.

Plus, if we're talking about tanking, lets be clear - The only cup winners who have won in the salary cap era without drafting 1st or 2nd overall with their own picks are St. Louis and Boston. Pittsburgh isn't the exception there, they're closer to the rule.

What is wrong with Copp? He's a middle 6 center that can win a draw. The centers beyond Larkin are Suter, Veleno and the single game Kasper (who was playing with Copp on his wing til he cracked a kneecap).

Chiarot is a bad partner on the ice but apparently really helpful off the ice. He and Copp are wearing As so the kids don't have to.

And yes, Seider, Raymond, Rasmussen, Veleno, Zadina, Berggren, soon Edvinsson and Kasper. They are the kids the Wings have that they need to develop into something. Having vets around for them to emulate is better than the floundering they have been doing when the Wings were trying to be bad.

The Wings tried. They never got #1 or #2 or even #3. You can't keep sucking and start to hurt the development of the kids you already have. That's how you end up with 10+ years of tanking.

Anaheim and the Wings were also in the Cap era...

 

[Captain Mountain]

What is wrong with Copp? He's a middle 6 center that can win a draw. The centers beyond Larkin are Suter, Veleno and the single game Kasper (who was playing with Copp on his wing til he cracked a kneecap).

Chiarot is a bad partner on the ice but apparently really helpful off the ice. He and Copp are wearing As so the kids don't have to.

And yes, Seider, Raymond, Rasmussen, Veleno, Zadina, Berggren, soon Edvinsson and Kasper. They are the kids the Wings have that they need to develop into something. Having vets around for them to emulate is better than the floundering they have been doing when the Wings were trying to be bad.

The Wings tried. They never got #1 or #2 or even #3. You can't keep sucking and start to hurt the development of the kids you already have. That's how you end up with 10+ years of tanking.

Anaheim and the Wings were also in the Cap era...

You really think a 5 year deal to a 40 point center is good value?

I'm a Habs fan, I know Chiarot's strengths and weaknesses. If you're acquiring him for off the ice reasons, there were and are cheaper ways to do it.

And my point was, there are easier ways to get veteran leaders than give them big money UFA deals.

You also end up with 10+ years by never getting that elite talent. Popular teams brought out as cautionary tales against tanking weren't actually tanking a lot of those years, they were bringing in vets to fit the culture.

And if you think the old Detroit model or what the Ducks did is at all translatable to building a winner now, then go ahead. Personally, teams than benefitted from accruing talent pre-cap or taking advantage of the institution of a cap don't seem like models that work nowadays.

Criticism isn't a bad thing. Its ok to like the leadership of the team but criticize decisions or parts of the plan.

 

[dekelikekocur]

You really think a 5 year deal to a 40 point center is good value?

I'm a Habs fan, I know Chiarot's strengths and weaknesses. If you're acquiring him for off the ice reasons, there were and are cheaper ways to do it.

And my point was, there are easier ways to get veteran leaders than give them big money UFA deals.

You also end up with 10+ years by never getting that elite talent. Popular teams brought out as cautionary tales against tanking weren't actually tanking a lot of those years, they were bringing in vets to fit the culture.

And if you think the old Detroit model or what the Ducks did is at all translatable to building a winner now, then go ahead. Personally, teams than benefitted from accruing talent pre-cap or taking advantage of the institution of a cap don't seem like models that work nowadays.

Criticism isn't a bad thing. Its ok to like the leadership of the team but criticize decisions or parts of the plan.

None of the UFAs Yzerman signed last year were "Big Money", that combined with Detroit having an abundance of cap space means that nothing and no one is being impeded from being signed.

How many times are you going to move the goal post? Go watch the habs suck for the next god knows how long, having a Cinderella run in a screwed up season as your only real claim to fame in 30 years is what you should be bitching about instead of worrying about anything Detroit does.

 

[SuperScript29]

Detroit will not be competitive until their young core takes it to that next level. Until then, signing these random side kicks will not help.

At this point, I feel like Larkin is reaching his max potential, I think 80ish points may be his top ceiling. I don't seem him hitting 90+ unless other players around him start playing crazy. Seider/Raymond still have a lot of room to grow, and the rest of the youth are a bunch of question marks imo. I understand the reasons for getting rid of the likes of Bertuzzi/Vrana, but these guys were quality skillful players and this feels like a semi-reset move. Going to be a while until the Wings compete for a playoff spot.