When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Ararana]

Does this mean Sakic was the better player and GM?

 

[Mrb1p]

I'm just not sure how drafting Zadina over Hughes relates to Yzerman I guess

What do you mean? Im talking about picking higher, Im talking about picking more.

2018 is before the Yzerplan.

Do you really think Detroit without Chiarot is worse than Chicago this year?

And I thought you were talking about 2021 and 2022? How did Copp affect our draft position those years? Should we have traded Seider and Raymond too, given they were massive parts of lifting us out of the bottom 4?

Every year so far.

Chiarot doesnt make you worse, of course... Those decisions shouldve been taken in 2020, and slowly built.

The goal is to build a winner, no? You guys got a gamebreaker out of Seider, which is insane, at what spot? 8? I think? Your talent pool should look much, much better than it is right now after nearly five years of rebuilding.

At the end of the day, he kept Larkin, Bertuzzi, Mantha and Hronek for what? To be non-competitive for five years ?

I know its hard to see your team look like Hawks and Ducks but it is the way, sadly. Its just the way the league is set up now.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Wings need to acquire elite gamebreaking talent that can win hardware.

Guys that tend to win Rockets and Art Ross (and Harts) are often drafted near the top of the draft. Not always, there's a rare 1/300 exception to the rule.

Currently the top 10 leading scorers in the league?
I count 3 who were not drafted top 5.
Kuch, Pasta, Point

So the Wings are likely gonna try and be Competitive NOW without an Elite Ross/Rocket guy to build around unless they're relying on that 5% crapshoot pick that literally all 32 teams are wishing for.

About 50% of Norris guys are drafted in the top-5 (Doughty, Hedman, Makar, Dahlin) but about half the time then there's Josi, Fox, Burns who are drafted outside of the 1st round).

Goalies are an unpredictable mess - so you can't really gameplan around building around a Vezina caliber goalie until you have one.


So the Wings are gonna try and become competitive around developing Selke players, and fluking out with acquiring Norris/Vezina caliber players along with the rest of the 27 teams not in the draft lottery.



Goodluck!

 

[Pavels Dog]

At the end of the day, he kept Larkin, Bertuzzi, Mantha and Hronek for what? To be non-competitive for five years ?

Bertuzzi, Mantha and Hronek have all been traded. What are you even talking about. Bertuzzi's 9 games in 2020-21 were not what prevented the Wings from tanking.

 

[Mrb1p]

Bertuzzi, Mantha and Hronek have all been traded. What are you even talking about. Bertuzzi's 9 games in 2020-21 were not what prevented the Wings from tanking.

He just traded two of them.

What about last year? Did Bertuzzi not help you win games? Larkin?

The goal is to start a rebuild close to zero, not with a wish-washi half assed still a few players good enough type of roster.

 

[Captain Mountain]

You literally just mentionned Mercer?

Also, yes they do in their system.

Do you want to perhaps re-read what I wrote?

I think you misunderstand. Winning the lottery isn't the plan, but if you DON'T - things tend to take more time.
Like, Raymond is 2nd in scoring from his draft class and the only U21 players outscoring him this season are top 3 picks. Yet he's questioned, debated and seen by some as a disappointment.

It's all just a lack of patience.

You can still be patient and, after almost 4 years, think its reasonable to criticize a GM. Excluding a lame duck in Poile, Yzerman is already the 14th longest tenured GM in the NHL. The question is "[w]hen does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?" And if the answer isn't at the very least now, then you're probably not being too much of a homer.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Do you want to perhaps re-read what I wrote?



You can still be patient and, after almost 4 years, think its reasonable to criticize a GM. Excluding a lame duck in Poile, Yzerman is already the 14th longest tenured GM in the NHL. The question is "[w]hen does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?" And if the answer isn't at the very least now, then you're probably not being too much of a homer.

I'll become impatient when things go off the rails. Part of being patient is waiting for things to get better and 4 years in, things have gotten drastically better. Yzerman started out with a seriously negative value club. He cleared bullshit contracts, offloaded a few assets that aren't part of the long term strat and has drafted well in the first round with what picks he was able to acquire. We're now starting to see his second and later round picks starting to develop but that's where the patience part comes in, it's not an overnight process and lotto luck has screwed Detroit almost as much as Holland's leftover mess that had to be cleaned up did. But despite both of those situations, we're showing improvements and continue the slow and steady route.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm not sure how much better lotto luck would have improved based on how it shaped out. Like if the get the 1st pick in 2019, they have J. Hughes, but no Seider, and if they get the 1st in 2020 they have Lafreniere which doesn't feel significantly different than Raymond at the moment.

 

[norrisnick]

He just traded two of them.

What about last year? Did Bertuzzi not help you win games? Larkin?

The goal is to start a rebuild close to zero, not with a wish-washi half assed still a few players good enough type of roster.

That is not the goal.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I'll become impatient when things go off the rails. Part of being patient is waiting for things to get better and 4 years in, things have gotten drastically better. Yzerman started out with a seriously negative value club. He cleared bullshit contracts, offloaded a few assets that aren't part of the long term strat and has drafted well in the first round with what picks he was able to acquire. We're now starting to see his second and later round picks starting to develop but that's where the patience part comes in, it's not an overnight process and lotto luck has screwed Detroit almost as much as Holland's leftover mess that had to be cleaned up did. But despite both of those situations, we're showing improvements and continue the slow and steady route.

Again, you can still be patient and criticize the plan. Like, its really not a crime to appreciate the process and growth and still wonder about some of the draft picks or what the point of giving money and term to older players that drove the team away from a higher draft spot/lottery odds, but not near the playoffs.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Currently the top 10 leading scorers in the league?
I count 3 who were not drafted top 5.
Kuch, Pasta, Point

Kucherov, Pastrnak, Tkachuk, Robertson, and Karlsson were all drafted outside the top-5. That's half of the top-10 scorers.

About 50% of Norris guys are drafted in the top-5 (Doughty, Hedman, Makar, Dahlin) but about half the time then there's Josi, Fox, Burns who are drafted outside of the 1st round).

Burns was a 1st round pick

 

[bleedgreen]

They’re going to be fine. He’s a very good gm and I expect that this year will only help them in the end. I wasn’t expecting that much more from them this season and this allows them another good draft pick. People love to tear down anyone that’s got a good name. Sad, but that’s hf.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Again, you can still be patient and criticize the plan. Like, its really not a crime to appreciate the process and growth and still wonder about some of the draft picks or what the point of giving money and term to older players that drove the team away from a higher draft spot/lottery odds, but not near the playoffs.

My only complaint to date is the Chiarot signing. Outside of that (and honestly, I think Chiarot has probably cost us more games than he's helped us so kind of a wash of better standings vs better draft picks).

 

[Captain Mountain]

My only complaint to date is the Chiarot signing. Outside of that (and honestly, I think Chiarot has probably cost us more games than he's helped us so kind of a wash of better standings vs better draft picks).

Then you're a far more generous fan than I, because I see a lot more.

 

[Mrb1p]

That is not the goal.

It is, after you establish the goal that you want a succesful team.

Name one contender today that was built any other way ?

Boston.
Vegas.
NYR.
Seattle, I guess ?


Edmonton
Colorado
NJD
Tampa
Carolina
Toronto


Unless you're
A) an expansion team
B) Gonna get a Pastrnak at 26
C) A destination like New york

You need to tank, and tank hard.

 

[RedWingzz]

All the Wings fans shitting on Ken Holland when he was pushed out of Detroit, look what he has done for Edmonton in just a few short years. look at what the Lightning have done without Yzerman

How many first round picks did the Oilers get again?

 

[dekelikekocur]

Then you're a far more generous fan than I, because I see a lot more.

You hope for more, the reality is, trades take two parties and if no one is buying, you aren't gonna sell. Trading Larkin would have soured a LOT of fans as he's the hometown kid combined with being the Captain of the team. Bert, Hronek, and so on we got decent returns for.

Outside of the whining about "not tanking enough" what else is there? Tank too much and you build a losing culture, Relying on winning the lottery? Not even close to reliable and should be considered, "cool we won" and not a "we have to win" approach. We had fairly high chances were constantly getting worse picks, it's just what it is, you don't keep trying to toss the dice in hopes of winning, you start building and getting better and developing. The mindset that you keep tossing the dice is a poor mans dream of riches or a gambling addict.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

All the Wings fans shitting on Ken Holland when he was pushed out of Detroit, look what he has done for Edmonton in just a few short years. look at what the Lightning have done without Yzerman

You should probably look at the roster Holland took over in Edmonton then look at the dumpster fire he left behind for Yzerman in Detroit.

 

[Phrasing]

The Yzerplan hasn’t spun as bad as nearly the other failed rebuilds like Arizona or Vancouver. Other teams have outshined Detroit in their failures.

 

[Captain Mountain]

You hope for more, the reality is, trades take two parties and if no one is buying, you aren't gonna sell. Trading Larkin would have soured a LOT of fans as he's the hometown kid combined with being the Captain of the team. Bert, Hronek, and so on we got decent returns for.

Outside of the whining about "not tanking enough" what else is there? Tank too much and you build a losing culture, Relying on winning the lottery? Not even close to reliable and should be considered, "cool we won" and not a "we have to win" approach. We had fairly high chances were constantly getting worse picks, it's just what it is, you don't keep trying to toss the dice in hopes of winning, you start building and getting better and developing. The mindset that you keep tossing the dice is a poor mans dream of riches or a gambling addict.

I mean, I'm not a Wings fan, I'm a fan of a rival. I'm pretty ok with Yzerman because the Atlantic is tough enough as it is and I'd be critical of the "Yzerplan" if I were a fan because other teams are doing it better.

And you can tank harder while still building a culture. You can still build a culture and rebuild without signing a bunch of older UFAs.

 

[dekelikekocur]

I mean, I'm not a Wings fan, I'm a fan of a rival. I'm pretty ok with Yzerman because the Atlantic is tough enough as it is and I'd be critical of the "Yzerplan" if I were a fan because other teams are doing it better.

And you can tank harder while still building a culture. You can still build a culture and rebuild without signing a bunch of older UFAs.

Yes, a culture of losing. Players don't tank, they go out there and bust their ass (in most cases) So setting a team up for failure is going to cause problems making it harder to resign your developing talent and drive off any would be free agents.

It's not like a team gets 4 or 5 players injected from the draft in a year. Those kids coming up need to be sheltered and educated, not put into a sink or swim environment. The Oilers and Sabres are prime examples of how sink or swim extends your rebuild by a very long time and wastes draft picks.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yes, a culture of losing. Players don't tank, they go out there and bust their ass (in most cases) So setting a team up for failure is going to cause problems making it harder to resign your developing talent and drive off any would be free agents.

It's not like a team gets 4 or 5 players injected from the draft in a year. Those kids coming up need to be sheltered and educated, not put into a sink or swim environment. The Oilers and Sabres are prime examples of how sink or swim extends your rebuild by a very long time and wastes draft picks.

Oilers and Sabres are examples of two teams that had at times aggressively acquired talent to expedite their rebuild to shelter the "kids" and it backfired on them spectacularly and set them back.

But even if that weren't the case, what does winning 35 games instead of 25 games establishes a better culture? You don't think even the teams most overtly tanking aren't thinking and talking about culture consistently? Tanking is management's job. Culture is in the locker room. They are not incongruous focuses.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You can still be patient and, after almost 4 years, think its reasonable to criticize a GM. Excluding a lame duck in Poile, Yzerman is already the 14th longest tenured GM in the NHL. The question is "[w]hen does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?" And if the answer isn't at the very least now, then you're probably not being too much of a homer.

The problem is the only suggestions really made in terms of what Yzerman could have done differently seem to boil down to two things;

1. Tank harder and longer
2. Just get lucky in the lottery

Even if you do your best at #1, #2 is impossible to control.

He just traded two of them.

What about last year? Did Bertuzzi not help you win games? Larkin?

The goal is to start a rebuild close to zero, not with a wish-washi half assed still a few players good enough type of roster.

How confident are you that Detroit's a bottom 3 team without Larkin and Bertuzzi though? And that they actually retain a top 3 pick in the lottery and don't fall to 4th or 5th?

 

[Captain Mountain]

The problem is the only suggestions really made in terms of what Yzerman could have done differently seem to boil down to two things;

1. Tank harder and longer
2. Just get lucky in the lottery

Even if you do your best at #1, #2 is impossible to control.


How confident are you that Detroit's a bottom 3 team without Larkin and Bertuzzi though? And that they actually retain a top 3 pick in the lottery and don't fall to 4th or 5th?

Again, the "Yzerplan", has never been about tanking or lottery luck. If we're being real here, its about getting lucky with later picks.

Yzerman chose to go big in free agency this season and all it largely lead to was finish around where they are right now. And the guys he gave term to (Copp, Chiarot and Husso) don't really look like they'll be able to perform up to their contracts either. Yzerman is a good GM, but the "Yzerplan" and some of his decisions absolutely deserve to be criticized.

 

[McShogun99]

Detroit is on the right path and still have some pretty good prospects that are almost NHL ready. They'll be in the playoffs very soon.