When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Hockeyholic]

The real criticism should go to the NHL and the game they manage, where it takes a decade to rebuild because you can't renegotiate contracts, or buy them out, etc.

And you have to draft kids like 6 years before they're mature professional players.

The whole set-up is ridiculous, it's a miracle they're able to draw any new fans to the game.

I think this was taken out in 2005 because of players holding out. Keith Tkachuk would consistently hold out for new deals. Even though he had agreed to his previous deal. So a player under contract would get suspended without pay if they tried to hold out now.

You can buy out contracts. It will affect the cap.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I think this was taken out in 2005 because of players holding out. Keith Tkachuk would consistently hold out for new deals. Even though he had agreed to his previous deal. So a player under contract would get suspended without pay if they tried to hold out now.

You can buy out contracts. It will affect the cap.

You can't really buy out contracts in a way that helps the team's cap.

 

[Oddbob]

Signing trash like Chiarot is highly suspect for an all world GM.

Name a GM that hasn't made bad signings or trades? Even the absolute best GMs in league history, are going to make a large number of moves that don't work out if on the job long enough.

the Vrana trade looks really bad atm. he might have some issues, but he can score goals at the NHL level

Doesn't look bad at all. Vrana wasn't moved because of his skills on the hockey rink. Not sure how many times this needs to be said. If it was his skills, he would still be in Detroit, heck, if it was just skills he would probably still be in Washington.

 

[StreetHawk]

You can't really buy out contracts in a way that helps the team's cap.

Then you as the GM have structured the contract poorly on your end. You open up $4 mill on a $6 mill contract. If you front loaded it or have big signing bonuses that’s on you for doing that.

This is the cba the owners agreed to. Goes both ways.

Every nfl team has a dead salary cap space. Some more than others. It’s how the nfl does business due to signing bonuses and guarantees.

 

[Oddbob]

Nothing lazier than bad reading comprehension. Culprit: you.

This is a deep draft with four outstanding players. You tank, you give yourself a shot to get them. You fail to get them, you get sweet consolation prizes.

The Red Wings are getting neither.

And before I get labeled a hater, I like the Red Wings. Which is why I'm annoyed by their bad decisions.

And who says the best 4 players are all going to go 1-4? Almost every draft in existence has seen a top 4 overall not include many top 4 picks when all is said and done. Have you looked at NHL draft history? Basically none of them have a Top 4 overall from the top 4 picks only.

Kucherov was undervalued because of concerns with him being a Russian. Point was someone Yzerman actually specifically traded up to in order to draft in the 3rd round. In the case of Kucherov at least you can probably argue that what makes up an undervalued asset changes all the time and what he was able to take advantage of in 2011 isn't something he can take advantage of now, but you can't really write off Point as just "fluking out" when it was clearly someone he and the scouts had zeroed in on wanting to draft when they did. I'm sure they didn't expect what he's turned into but they clearly saw something they liked.

There will always be great players found in rounds 2+ no matter how good scouting is or becomes. Reason: Drafting is very much more on luck than great skill and there will always be late bloomers who come out of nowhere to be stars. That is never going to change.

 

[Oddbob]

No one has been able to describe just how the Wings were supposed to tank into the bottom 4 this year.

It is very easy Pavels, you just healthy scratch Larkin and Seider for 60 games, and play Hellberg 63 games and the rest Ned.

Think If we still had Holland, Yzerman got rid of all those albatross contracts and has signed some good deals, restocked our prospect pool and we have a ton of picks going forward. Now he has the ability to wheel and deal with some prospects as well as draft picks and current roster players.

We would have played Ericsson, Abdelkader and Nielsen all the way through their contracts almost guaranteed. Dekeyser also.

 

[GMR]

If Vrana relapses again, the honeymoon in St. Louis will be over.

Remember that Vrana was placed on waivers shortly before the deadline, and nobody signed him. Including St. Louis. The other GMs knew the issue, it just hasn't been publicly discussed.

 

[Oddbob]

Okay.

Don't sign Chiarot. Don't give away Vrana. Don't avoid tanking the one year you can get Bedard.

Mentioning Chiarot is hilarious if you have seen him play this year. If ever there was a tank commander defenceman he is it. Vrana was not hockey related and they literally could only give him away as no one wanted him. STL only took him because they got him half price and paid nothing else. Also, if Vrana was playing like he is currently is in STL that would mean more wins not less, which is what you are suggesting the Wings did wrong this season. Need to pick a lane here.

 

[Frank Drebin]

By this logic every "hit" beyond the first round is a fluke and not deserving of praise. There's zero reason to draft a player with a higher pick than is necessary to get said player. That's wasting draft picks.

Somewhere in the middle I think. You're kind of saying someone who has won the lottery twice is inherently better at picking lucky numbers.

Sure, he wouldn't have won if he didn't buy the tickets in the first place, but if there was really skill involved, he'd be able to replicate his success over and over again.

 

[Oddbob]

Which is why I said not long/low enough. Most of the other teams that have bottomed out in the past 10ish years have more than 1 bottom 3 finish. And got at least 2 elite players from top 5 picks.

You had bad lottery luck, but also didn't buy that many tickets compared to your competition.

Detroits finishes
Last: 1
2nd: 0
3rd: 0
4th: 1
5th: 2
6th: 1
7th: 0
8th: 1

We literally had among the most draft picks of any teams in the past 3-4 drafts and have quite a few in the next 2 as well, so not sure what you mean by we didn't get as many lottery tickets.

Getting into the bottom 4 took a lot of effort this year. Several teams were *really* committed to maximizing their chances of that pick.

Yes, and all but one of them will still be disappointed as everyone down there wants one player, Bedard, and only 1 can have him. No different than everyone wanted McDavid over Eichel. This will be no different. They will be happy with who they get, but make no mistake all of them tanked hard for the shot at Bedard, not any of the other 3 or 4 guys rated high.

 

[Oddbob]

There are a few guys who I like over Raymond too, though I'd hesitate to actually criticize the pick.

The Raymond pick is still good thus far compared to the others drafted after. I am down on him at the moment cause this season has been a rough hopefully sophomore slump year, but who else is doing really well already that we could have taken?

I think this was taken out in 2005 because of players holding out. Keith Tkachuk would consistently hold out for new deals. Even though he had agreed to his previous deal. So a player under contract would get suspended without pay if they tried to hold out now.

You can buy out contracts. It will affect the cap.

Adam Oates was another who would sit out eventhough he had a contract because he didn't like the deals his peers had just signed. He did it like 3-4 times in about 8 years.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I imagine next year they'll want Albert Johansson, William Wallinder and Cross Hanas in the NHL. That will probably go a long way to determining the success of the rebuild. Six 2nd round picks from 2019 and 2020 drafts, about to enter the "ok show me" time of their careers beyond just being a good U21 defenseman in Sweden or whatever. If those guys are good, then they might just be a couple players away. If they fizzle out, like the 2nd round picks in the late Holland era, then it could be a lot longer.

 

[LarKing]

I imagine next year they'll want Albert Johansson, William Wallinder and Cross Hanas in the NHL. That will probably go a long way to determining the success of the rebuild. Six 2nd round picks from 2019 and 2020 drafts, about to enter the "ok show me" time of their careers beyond just being a good U21 defenseman in Sweden or whatever. If those guys are good, then they might just be a couple players away. If they fizzle out, like the 2nd round picks in the late Holland era, then it could be a lot longer.

Maybe Johansson. More likely Edvinsson and Kasper. Then Wallinder the year after as well as Johansson if not up next year.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Not to harp on the kid but is it fair to call Raymond’s season a big disappointment? I think the organization was counting on him taking a big step forward this year.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I imagine next year they'll want Albert Johansson, William Wallinder and Cross Hanas in the NHL. That will probably go a long way to determining the success of the rebuild. Six 2nd round picks from 2019 and 2020 drafts, about to enter the "ok show me" time of their careers beyond just being a good U21 defenseman in Sweden or whatever.

None of that makes any sense.

 

[norrisnick]

Not to harp on the kid but is it fair to call Raymond’s season a big disappointment? I think the organization was counting on him taking a big step forward this year.

He had a dip at the beginning of the season. For a good chunk he was on pace to push this season's output beyond last year's. Then he got trucked by Chiarot in practice and missed a few weeks and hasn't really regained form since.

 

[BFLO]

We literally had among the most draft picks of any teams in the past 3-4 drafts and have quite a few in the next 2 as well, so not sure what you mean by we didn't get as many lottery tickets.



Yes, and all but one of them will still be disappointed as everyone down there wants one player, Bedard, and only 1 can have him. No different than everyone wanted McDavid over Eichel. This will be no different. They will be happy with who they get, but make no mistake all of them tanked hard for the shot at Bedard, not any of the other 3 or 4 guys rated high.

You had 1 bottom 3 finish, so only 1 bottom 3 lottery ticket. Other teams like Tor, Buffalo, Edm, NJ, Ott, AVs, FLA have had multiple bottom 3 finishes over the last 10 or so years and gotten multiple elite players out of it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You had 1 bottom 3 finish, so only 1 bottom 3 lottery ticket. Other teams like Tor, Buffalo, Edm, NJ, Ott, AVs, FLA have had multiple bottom 3 finishes over the last 10 or so years and gotten multiple elite players out of it.

they had pretty tank-y rosters in 2018-19 and 2020-21, but they just got outtanked by a few other teams. 2019 ended up working out fine as is with Seider, and 2020 the 1st overall Lafreniere didn't end up living up to the hype anyways. Guess we'll see what happens with the 2021 pick (Edvinsoon).

 

[SEALBound]

I can understand Vrana being traded but can DRW fans clue me on as to why Yzerman elected to trade Bertuzzi? Seems like the kind of guy you need on your team...

 

[GarlicbreadTB]

I can understand Vrana being traded but can DRW fans clue me on as to why Yzerman elected to trade Bertuzzi? Seems like the kind of guy you need on your team...

Contract running out this summer, troubled contract negotations in the past and they weren't getting anywhere on a new contract. And when Yzerman realised the team wasn't gonna make the playoffs and what other players went for it was better to get something for Bertuzzi instead of nothing.

Also he's been injured quite a lot recently too. And if it matters or not, I'm sure how well not getting vaccinated(missing a bunch of games last season due to it) went over with the management either.

 

[Tatar Shots]

I can understand Vrana being traded but can DRW fans clue me on as to why Yzerman elected to trade Bertuzzi? Seems like the kind of guy you need on your team...

He got a first round pick for an oft-injured UFA that he was having difficulty signing and who was having a disappointing season. Trading him was better than giving him the big contract

 

[newfy]

Somewhere in the middle I think. You're kind of saying someone who has won the lottery twice is inherently better at picking lucky numbers.

Sure, he wouldn't have won if he didn't buy the tickets in the first place, but if there was really skill involved, he'd be able to replicate his success over and over again.

Yeah except the lottery is actually pure luck. Drafting isnt. Certain teams consistently outdraft others and Yzerman has said he has specific traits that he looks for in a player that he wont share publicly. Whatever those traits are, obviously leads to more hits in the draft. Obviously if he knew Kucherov would be Kucherov he would draft him higher and theres a lot of luck to it, but Yzerman has also clearly found some things to look for that work in the NHL.

How long does he consistently have to out draft the majority of the league to get some props? Its been going on for over a decade now

Not to harp on the kid but is it fair to call Raymond’s season a big disappointment? I think the organization was counting on him taking a big step forward this year.

I guess. He was a 20 year old sophomore this year and hes going to end the season on pace for somewhere around 20 goals and 50 points despite having a pretty bad injury in the middle of his season. WOuld it have been nice for him to go score 90 points? Definitely, but hard to say that he was a big disappointment unless your expectations are over the top.

I can understand Vrana being traded but can DRW fans clue me on as to why Yzerman elected to trade Bertuzzi? Seems like the kind of guy you need on your team...

He was an upcoming UFA that has basically missed at least ten games a season since he broke into the league. His age doesnt line up perfectly with the core of young guys on the way either. They also got a pretty good return for him

 

[Pavels Dog]

Other teams like Tor, Buffalo, Edm, NJ, Ott, AVs, FLA have had multiple bottom 3 finishes over the last 10 or so years and gotten multiple elite players out of it.

Toronto's had one bottom 3 finish.
NJ has two bottom 3 finishes, zero bottom 2 finishes (and have three picks in the top 2)

 

[Frank Drebin]

How long does he consistently have to out draft the majority of the league to get some props? Its been going on for over a decade now

Since 2014, has he?

 

[sepster]

Every nfl team has a dead salary cap space. Some more than others. It’s how the nfl does business due to signing bonuses and guarantees.

The NFL also doesn't have guaranteed contracts. A player could sign a $100mil contract today and be cut and released from that contract tomorrow. There is absolutely no way to compare the NHL and NFL contract scenarios.

Also, going back to the 2005 lockout, I have always contended that a league can have a hard salary cap OR guaranteed contracts, not both.