TSN: What's holding up Kopitar's new contract? (MOD WARNING) post #205

[Raccoon Jesus]

The notion that trading Kopi equates to a rebuild is just silly. So, who do we keep, and who do we trade if we're rebuilding? Do we trade Carter? Quick?

For me, it really depends on what we can get on a return for Kopi. Only then, I think we'll know better whether we need to rebuild or try and compete for the cup.

But that's the crux of it--go look at what a UFA Kovalchuk returned. You're not getting much back for a rental, least of all something to 'fill' Kopi's spot. I think most people would be happy to be wrong about that it just seems fully unlikely that you're going to get anything close to full value. And if you're not going to be able to fill Kopi's spot with the return, we're probably done competing, unless you think Shore, Kempe, Andreoff, Lewis, whatever can keep up with Toews, Getzlaf, Thornton...

 

[HYORI 1963]

But that's the crux of it--go look at what a UFA Kovalchuk returned. You're not getting much back for a rental, least of all something to 'fill' Kopi's spot. I think most people would be happy to be wrong about that it just seems fully unlikely that you're going to get anything close to full value. And if you're not going to be able to fill Kopi's spot with the return, we're probably done competing, unless you think Shore, Kempe, Andreoff, Lewis, whatever can keep up with Toews, Getzlaf, Thornton...

Lucic returned essentially two 1st and Miller who is playing top 4 for the bruins. Kopi should return something pretty close to that, perhaps, even a little better.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Lucic returned essentially two 1st and Miller who is playing top 4 for the bruins. Kopi should return something pretty close to that, perhaps, even a little better.

That was for an entire year though, not a portion.

 

[KINGS17]

I think those things are related. Sort of like when we traded for Sekera, if you're trading for a big rental, you're more than likely doing it with the expecation that you're taking a shot at signing him, no? Especially with what potential you'd be giving up. I don't think we DO have 3-4 seasons with this group, I think we have this year and MAYBE next year before a retool would be necessary, but erasing Kopitar from that equation, decline or not, means we're hosed and need to start over, and like I said elsewhere, may as well start moving anything not nailed down--Kopi, Lucic, Gaborik, Brown, Quick...anything near or on the wrong side of 30 for big assets. Go full Bruins.



I see tons of people apprehensive about it and 2-3 that are supportive of it, and only one does it without flinching. That's not helping your point really. But at least it creates some good discussion.

Look, I think worst case scenario right now we're rolling Carter and Kopi as pseudo-co-#1Cs for the foreseeable future. Even so, selling low on Kopitar would be silly, especially when things are starting to look up for him. I agree that the contract will be an overpayment as soon as year #3, but we're just looking at different philosophies, and what happens will tell us what DL is thinking--do you sign him and take 1-2 last cracks at the cup with this group, or do you sell and retool?

Edit: Just read like the five posts prior to mine, they're the same thing but more succinct

It doesn't help your point at all, since you dismissed the possibility that it would ever be considered at all. Montreal appears to be all in this year.

 

[King'sPawn]

Lucic returned essentially two 1st and Miller who is playing top 4 for the bruins. Kopi should return something pretty close to that, perhaps, even a little better.

So your argument that trading Kopitar doesn't signify a rebuild by citing a trade that returned long term assets?

 

[KINGS17]

That was for an entire year though, not a portion.

Do the deal now and re-sign him and it's for the next 8.5+ years. This idea that Kopitar would be strictly a rental like Sekera was for the Kings is pretty naive.

 

[HYORI 1963]

So your argument that trading Kopitar doesn't signify a rebuild by citing a trade that returned long term assets?

No, you flip them for someone that can help now.

 

[damacles1156]

I don't even think Sekera got a good return. He was a pure rental, I don't think the Kings were interested in resigning Sekera, unless he was going to be really cheap.

Any team would want to retain Kopitar, at all costs, just like the Kings are trying too.

 

[KINGS17]

I don't even think Sekera got a good return. He was a pure rental, I don't think the Kings were interested in resigning Sekera, unless he was going to be really cheap.

Any team would want to retain Kopitar, at all costs, just like the Kings are trying too.

Kopitar's price is well known. Any team trading for him would give him something very close to what Brisson is asking.

 

[damacles1156]

Kopitar's price is well known. Any team trading for him would give him something very close to what Brisson is asking.

Yup, that is 100% correct.

 

[damacles1156]

Someone would give up a pretty darn good package for Kopitar, it wouldn't be junk or spare parts.

The question is, would Lombardi even entertain that idea ? I don't think he would.

I think he should though.

 

[KopitarFAN]

The notion that trading Kopi equates to a rebuild is just silly. So, who do we keep, and who do we trade if we're rebuilding? Do we trade Carter? Quick?

For me, it really depends on what we can get on a return for Kopi. Only then, I think we'll know better whether we need to rebuild or try and compete for the cup.

Yes. Like I said a couple pages ago (last night), if you let Kopi walk, you trade everyone with value, except Toffoli and Doughty, recouping major draft picks and young players for Carter, Muzzin, Martinez, throw Quick out there but I am not sure of his market with 7 years left on his deal.

At this point, trading him (Kopi) is not an option, being in 1st place and all.

 

[HYORI 1963]

Even if Kopi were to get traded, whoever said we can't re-sign him when he comes crawling back, begging to be a King again. I think Kopi just need to experience a stint with another team, before he realizes how good he has/had it here in LA.

 

[KINGS17]

Even if Kopi were to get traded, whoever said we can't re-sign him when he comes crawling back, begging to be a King again. I think Kopi just need to experience a stint with another team, before he realizes how good he has/had it here in LA.

After the trade that cap space would be gone. I think that there are a handful of teams that would make a deal for Kopitar and give up a talented young roster player to get him. Montreal and Nashville are the obvious choices.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Someone would give up a pretty darn good package for Kopitar, it wouldn't be junk or spare parts.

The question is, would Lombardi even entertain that idea ? I don't think he would.

I think he should though.

But again, I'm citing the Kovalchuk trade; what other times have UFAs been traded mid-season for significant assets?

It doesn't help your point at all, since you dismissed the possibility that it would ever be considered at all. Montreal appears to be all in this year.

Oh, well then I guess your point stands, because one fan on a message board agreed with you with no rationale for the trade.

I already backed off my stance earlier when I read MTL is all-in, I just don't think they'll sacrifice Galchenyuk to that altar.

 

[HYORI 1963]

After the trade that cap space would be gone. I think that there are a handful of teams that would make a deal for Kopitar and give up a talented young roster player to get him. Montreal and Nashville are the obvious choices.

Possibly.

It really depends on whether the kings would prefer to re-sign Kopi, or to trade the recently acquired players in the Kopi deal to free up some cap space.

 

[Trolfoli]

I already backed off my stance earlier when I read MTL is all-in, I just don't think they'll sacrifice Galchenyuk to that altar.

Even if they did, Galchenyuk wouldn't be ready for a couple of years.

Only way a Kopitar trade works this year, being at the top of the division, and looking at the playoffs is if Lombardi is able to bring in a replacement for him. A guy that is ready this year to go up against the best lines in the playoffs and come off on the winning end. That list looks like Crosby, Stamkos, Staal (maybe). So trade Kopitar, then spend as much or more then you get for Kopitar to bring in a replacement. All this to maybe save 1-1.5M. Lombardi would need to get a steal for Kopitar and then get a steal on a replacement to make this work. Seems unlikely.

WCF going up against NSH with Kopitar as their 1C would be fun.

Side note: If the Kings trade Kopitar I hope he ends up in NSH to make it that much harder on the Hawks.

 

[KINGS17]

But again, I'm citing the Kovalchuk trade; what other times have UFAs been traded mid-season for significant assets?



Oh, well then I guess your point stands, because one fan on a message board agreed with you with no rationale for the trade.

I already backed off my stance earlier when I read MTL is all-in, I just don't think they'll sacrifice Galchenyuk to that altar.

More than one. Just admit that the idea of Kopitar purely as a rental isn't the only way it could go down. Kopitar is loyal as hell when the dollars are right. Any team trading for him would come close to matching what he wants. He would sign with that team, almost 100% guaranteed if they gave him Brisson's asking price or close to it.

Why wouldn't Montreal give Galchenyuk? They are deep down the middle and would have Kopitar and Plakenac.

 

[kingsboy11]

But again, I'm citing the Kovalchuk trade; what other times have UFAs been traded mid-season for significant assets?



Oh, well then I guess your point stands, because one fan on a message board agreed with you with no rationale for the trade.

I already backed off my stance earlier when I read MTL is all-in, I just don't think they'll sacrifice Galchenyuk to that altar.

And lets say they do trade Galchenyuk (I don't think they would do it, but this is hypothetical), Carey Price's contract is up in 2 years and he's going to want to be the highest paid goalie in the league. Add in the fact they have Subban 9 million and signed for another 7 years. How would they be able to fit Subban and Price and Kopitar and still be competitive? And the 1st round pick they would throw in would be a late first in the 25-30 range. I just don't see Bergerven or Lombardi making that deal

 

[damacles1156]

But again, I'm citing the Kovalchuk trade; what other times have UFAs been traded mid-season for significant assets?



Oh, well then I guess your point stands, because one fan on a message board agreed with you with no rationale for the trade.

I already backed off my stance earlier when I read MTL is all-in, I just don't think they'll sacrifice Galchenyuk to that altar.

No one like Kopitar has made it to the market(lately), So there is no basis.

Maybe Seguin/ was a trade, but top Center. ?

Kovalchuck was a winger, that had serious legit rumors, of leaving to the KHL. Kovalchuck also is just not a good basis for anything, the guy had numerous issues of a piss poor attitude ETC. The guy was a flight risk his whole career, which tanked any value he did have.

Kopitar has none of those concerns.

 

[KINGS17]

No one like Kopitar has made it to the market(lately), So there is no basis.

Maybe Seguin/ was a trade, but top Center. ?

Kovalchuck was a winger, that had serious legit rumors, of leaving to the KHL.

But, but, this doesn't help Brad's argument, so surely you are wayyyyy off base.

 

[damacles1156]

Also that trade happened in 2010, with a failed GM/Franchise making that trade.

Things have changed in the NHL since then.

If anyone GM called up Lombardi and said "Well Kovalchuck only returned this ------". Lombardi would be taking the next phone call.

 

[Minor Boarding]

Even if Kopi were to get traded, whoever said we can't re-sign him when he comes crawling back, begging to be a King again. I think Kopi just need to experience a stint with another team, before he realizes how good he has/had it here in LA.

now this is childish, embarassing posting...

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

But, but, this doesn't help Brad's argument, so surely you are wayyyyy off base.

I guess I've been unreasonable in our several months of discussion and haven't backed up my ideas at all.

No one like Kopitar has made it to the market(lately), So there is no basis.

Maybe Seguin/ was a trade, but top Center. ?

Kovalchuck was a winger, that had serious legit rumors, of leaving to the KHL. Kovalchuck also is just not a good basis for anything, the guy had numerous issuse of a piss poor attitude ETC. The guy was a flight risk his whole career, which tanked any value he did have.

Kopitar has none of those concerns.

No, the concern Kopitar has is he's a rental UFA asking for Toews money but may be declining. Regardless of Kovalchuk's position and 'concerns,' let's not pretend his value in a trade would be vastly less than Kopitar's somehow. There's no 'basis' because it's not often guys like this are on the block (with good reason), I'm just trying to draw comparables because it seems like people think we're going to just sling Kopitar for a king's ransom and remain competitive.

And lets say they do trade Galchenyuk (I don't think they would do it, but this is hypothetical), Carey Price's contract is up in 2 years and he's going to want to be the highest paid goalie in the league. Add in the fact they have Subban 9 million and signed for another 7 years. How would they be able to fit Subban and Price and Kopitar and still be competitive? And the 1st round pick they would throw in would be a late first in the 25-30 range. I just don't see Bergerven or Lombardi making that deal

They wouldn't, they'd be in the same boat we are in right now, ironically...but if they're 'all in' now as is reported...

More than one. Just admit that the idea of Kopitar purely as a rental isn't the only way it could go down. Kopitar is loyal as hell when the dollars are right. Any team trading for him would come close to matching what he wants. He would sign with that team, almost 100% guaranteed if they gave him Brisson's asking price or close to it.

Why wouldn't Montreal give Galchenyuk? They are deep down the middle and would have Kopitar and Plakenac.

I already said that. Any team trading for Kopitar isn't looking at him as a pure rental, they're looking to sign him. Doesn't necessarily increase his trade value.

Montreal wouldn't give Galchenyuk because then they run the risk of losing Galchenyuk forever AND Kopitar after the season and it's a major setback. Suddenly, Plekanec is your #1 center and you have nothing behind him of substance. Jeez, look how many people were broken up over losing Roland ****ing McKeown around here!

It's just a lot riskier than you've made it sound.

 

[damacles1156]

I guess I've been unreasonable in our several months of discussion and haven't backed up my ideas at all.



No, the concern Kopitar has is he's a rental UFA asking for Toews money but may be declining. Regardless of Kovalchuk's position and 'concerns,' let's not pretend his value in a trade would be vastly less than Kopitar's somehow. There's no 'basis' because it's not often guys like this are on the block (with good reason), I'm just trying to draw comparables because it seems like people think we're going to just sling Kopitar for a king's ransom and remain competitive.



They wouldn't, they'd be in the same boat we are in right now, ironically...but if they're 'all in' now as is reported...



I already said that. Any team trading for Kopitar isn't looking at him as a pure rental, they're looking to sign him. Doesn't necessarily increase his trade value.

Montreal wouldn't give Galchenyuk because then they run the risk of losing Galchenyuk forever AND Kopitar after the season and it's a major setback. Suddenly, Plekanec is your #1 center and you have nothing behind him of substance. Jeez, look how many people were broken up over losing Roland ****ing McKeown around here!

It's just a lot riskier than you've made it sound.

It's not going to be a Kings ransom.

But you have a problem admitting, that it won't be a (underwhelming) package either. Is the package going to return Kopitar ? No, Someone like Kopitar ? NO!, a stop gap ? Maybe.