What Would You Do With This Team Over the Offseason?

[Dekes For Days]

When you have truly good prospects, they graduate to the NHL. That’s what Dubas inherited. Not just Marner, Matthews, and Nylander, but also Johnsson, Kapanen, Engvall, Liljegren, Woll, etc

When you have good prospects, they graduate to the NHL, just as 4 prospects that Dubas brought us did this year to save our depth.
But that whole process takes time.
Johnsson established himself in the NHL in his 6th year after being drafted.
Engvall established himself in the NHL in his 6th year after being drafted.
Liljegren established himself in the NHL in his 5th year after being drafted.
Woll established himself in the NHL in his 8th year after being drafted... after Dubas was gone.
Kapanen established himself in the NHL in his 4th year after being drafted... and he was brought in by Dubas.
This is why you don't empty your prospect pool all at once, especially if you're not going to immediately replenish your pool.
You need a steady stream of internal graduates. But Lou was a short-term thinker. He didn't care about what he was screwing up in the future.

He was brought in on an AHL contract

By Dubas. And then he was signed to an NHL contract by Dubas. Even the AHL GM at the time was brought in by... you guessed it... Dubas.

He was drafted after Dubas was fired.

By the director of scouting that Dubas hired.

Holmberg is a bottom 6 guy. Robertson is a maybe NHLer

Both are solid NHLers and they, along with Knies and McMann, provided cheap, valuable depth for us this year.
And more are coming, because our previous GM understood the importance.

He did some good, some bad. Ultimately he failed because of h the bad.

Everybody does some good, some bad, but he brought a heck of a lot more good than bad, and a heck of a lot more good than any other Leaf GM in recent history.

 

[maskingagent]

Not much is going to change. The team is owned and operated by two giant communication companies who can rarely come to an agreement on any big decision. As long as this board owns the team, it will be regular season success , and playoff failure.

 

[WillNy29]

I saw the difference M.T. made in Florida. If we could find someone like that for Toronto, that would go a long way.

I don't want to argue about the Tkachuk's any more - I was just using them as an example.

Getting a player that goes form playoff dud to stud is crystal ball stuff. You really need to do your homework or just pray that it works.

Maybe a Crouse or Keller or Konecny do that and those are players you could probably get for Marner but you also have the reverse inclination that maybe Marner figures it out elsewhere and scores like tkachuk in the playoffs (probably a snowballs chance in hell but one you have to take).

My only point was that when the trade was made for tkachuk he was a playoff dud he just happened to wake up in the playoffs in florida (which to me sounds like a low character player who didnt try hard in his other team)

 

[Boxscore]

My Plan:

1. Remove Shanahan immediately and do not fill the position. It's a fluffy waste of a position to begin with. Let BT report up and nuke an unnecessary buffer.

2. Fire Keefe immediately and hire Berube at all costs. Knowing Chief, he jumps at the opportunity to coach the Leafs.

3. Ask Tavares for an approved list and sell him for pennies on the dollar without retaining. Idgaf if we get a 4th rounder for him outright. If he refuses, at the very least, the C is removed from him and given to Matthews.

4. Shop Marner and try to find a feasible hockey trade. Then let him know he's no longer part of the future in any way, shape, or form, and I'd image the kid has enough pride to accept a trade and move on. If not, let him rot on the 3rd line and try to produce his way into a big payday as a FA. The days of the inmates running the asylum should be over.

5. Give Matthews the C and make it clear this is now his team, sink or swim. I have been as critical as anyone of Matthews, and personally, I don't think he has enough dog in him to carry a team on his back when it matters most. There's always an "excuse" once the playoffs start with this guy... "hot goalie", "lack of depth", "injuries", "sickness", etc. Newsflash: Every other NHL player deals with the same stuff when the playoffs ramp up. This has been EIGHT YEARS and since he's been on the team we have ONE playoff round win. There's a pattern here. Not acknowledging that is pure denial. That said... we are all in with 34. It's time to turn everything over to him to write his own legacy. If he succeeds, he'll go down as an all-time great Leaf (perhaps the greatest) and if he fails, he'll end up a huge disappointment. But this now must be up to him. No more excuses, no more roadblocks.

6. Given the above ^ 5... BT's mission must be to surround Matthews with the "right" pieces... not just the "flashy" ones. I would bring in dogs and alphas because Matthews just doesn't own that DNA. Target guys like Guentzel, Konecny, etc. Guys who combine skill with dog and love to battle.

7. Address the defense. If we can't get Rielly a "Batman" we need to get him a "Robin" at the very least. If Brandon Montour hits the open market, we should be all over him. He could run PP1 and help the PP immediately, which would lessen the burden on Rielly. If we can't go the FA route, try to land one in a hockey trade.

8. Re-up Domi and Bertuzzi and give them more of a role on the team. With the right coach -- and the right softy stars removed -- the culture of this team could morph into a more gritty and competitive team with Matthews and Nylander at the helm offensively.

9. Drop napalm on the "country club culture" that has been enabled under Shanahan. No more overpriced deals. No more wasting money. No more time dedicated to debating the dress code. No more gifting players positions or contracts without proving their worth. No more babying the players and coddling their feelings. Our new era should be labelled: "The Era of Accountability", full stop.

 

[colchar]

Quite the contrary. He's the one that saved us from the destruction of Lou, and produced some of the best teams this franchise has ever seen through one of the most difficult situations the league has ever seen. And now it seems like our best hope is that his second wave of youth outpaces Treliving's destruction.

The issue has nothing to do with his physical state or his on-ice contributions.

It's to do with leadership and accountability as an organisation. It's both an honour and a responsibility to be the captain of any team. When you have effectively failed to achieve your deliverables for 6 years in a row, as a leader, you need to be held accountable to it. Whether you did it to the best of your ability or not is inconsequential - this isn't grade school where we reward people or organisations for effort rather than results.

It's not so much ruthless as it is the right thing to do for the sake of the organisation. Similar to when the board of directors ask a CEO to leave or resign (or when the CEO does it willingly). Everyone is different, but if I were Tavares, I would offer to resign the C voluntarily.

It's time for a new voice and change, and the captaincy should absolutely be in scope. If anything, I would say that the perception around the league is more negative if things don't change.

You don't have the slightest clue about his leadership.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

You don't have the slightest clue about his leadership.

haha, I hope you don't make these personal attacks just so you can feel better about yourself

 

[Fogelhund]

Maybe this has been posted, but it's worth re-posting, if someone hasn't seen it.

 

[NVious]

You don't have the slightest clue about his leadership.

I think he does;
6 years of failure
Not one big series
Final series 1 goal 1 assist in 7 games

Tavares was one of the highest paid in the league to produce 12 goals and 11 assists in the playoffs in 35 games, basically a glorified 2nd liner.

If he wanted more leeway and forgiveness he should've taken a smaller contract, he got paid his money and didn't produce. He failed bottom line, this is professional sports not a daycare where no bad meanie things happen, there's consequences and there SHOULD be consequences to his failure.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Maybe this has been posted, but it's worth re-posting, if someone hasn't seen it.

Not that he's wrong but the way he stares down the camera after the Mitch entourage comment is so cringey. You can tell Sid thinks he's so bold and cool

 

[Boxscore]

You don't have the slightest clue about his leadership.

Behind closed doors, correct. However, let's look at what we do know and can prove...

1. The last time the Leafs truly battled in the playoffs and punched above their weight class was in 2017 vs. the Caps (pre-Tavares). The Leafs were a scrappy bunch who made every Leafs fan proud.

2. Since Tavares has been the captain, the Leafs haven't matched that same intensity and competitiveness in the playoffs. Tavares was handed the C and a core group of talented superstars, and since the letter was stitched on his jersey, this Tavares-lead squad has won ONE playoff round in the last 6+ years.

3. The Tavares-lead Islanders had similar playoff success... none. Nothing. Zilch. Ironically, once Tavares left Long Island, the team played its best and their compete level ramped up.

So, do any of us have access to the Leafs room and know what JT says or doesn't say? Do we know how he handles his players in private? Of course not. However, we also didn't know what guys like Wendel, Gilmour, Sakic, Yzerman, Toews, Crosby, Pronger, Weber, etc. said in the room, but their leadership was clear based on results, and the competitive nature in which they and their teams played, especially in the playoffs.

Look at a player like Pronger for example... as a leader with the Ducks, helps them win a Cup. Then he goes to Edmonton and leads them to a Cup. Then he goes to Philly and leads them to a Cup. I think it's safe to say what type of leader Pronger is... not by the words we can't hear... but by results and patterns.

Regardless if it was the Islanders or currently the Leafs, team's lead by John Tavares have zero success. I mean, "can't even win a round more than once" type of anemic success. His teams' compete levels certainly seem to drop off when he's captain. And we have his entire career as a sample size. So, what, 13-14 years?

Note, this doesn't mean JT is a bad guy at all. For all indications he's an awesome human being. But sometimes these teams name players captain because "they're nice guys" or "they're responsible" or "they are family oriented and know how to raise kids" but all of that is completely irrelevant if they don't have alpha dog DNA and the willingness to grab their teammates, throw them on their back, and lead them to war, dragging them into the fight by any means necessary. And that, John Tavares certainly has never been able to do.

 

[ORRFForever]

Getting a player that goes form playoff dud to stud is crystal ball stuff. You really need to do your homework or just pray that it works.

Maybe a Crouse or Keller or Konecny do that and those are players you could probably get for Marner but you also have the reverse inclination that maybe Marner figures it out elsewhere and scores like tkachuk in the playoffs (probably a snowballs chance in hell but one you have to take).

My only point was that when the trade was made for tkachuk he was a playoff dud he just happened to wake up in the playoffs in florida (which to me sounds like a low character player who didnt try hard in his other team)

Fair enough.

 

[Boxscore]

Maybe this has been posted, but it's worth re-posting, if someone hasn't seen it.

100% bang on accurate.

 

[sxvnert]

Remove Marner and Tavares, even if it requires a buyout. The team is better off not having either of these two gifted top minutes regardless of how they're playing.

 

[thewave]

Maybe this has been posted, but it's worth re-posting, if someone hasn't seen it.

You could put me in that seat and you would hear the same words out of my mouth. Perfectly said.

 

[colchar]

haha, I hope you don't make these personal attacks just so you can feel better about yourself

That isn't a personal attack, it is fact. Unless you are in the room, you have no clue.

 

[rumman]

Fire everyone


Everyone ?

View attachment 865562

Best post in this thread………

 

[WilliamInLondon]

That isn't a personal attack, it is fact. Unless you are in the room, you have no clue.

I was going to write a response to your point, but I think Boxscore hit the nail on the head with his reply. Absolutely true that I have no clue what he says behind closed doors, but I don't think one needs to be to make a pretty accurate appraisal of his leadership to date and its effect on outcomes.

Behind closed doors, correct. However, let's look at what we do know and can prove...

1. The last time the Leafs truly battled in the playoffs and punched above their weight class was in 2017 vs. the Caps (pre-Tavares). The Leafs were a scrappy bunch who made every Leafs fan proud.

2. Since Tavares has been the captain, the Leafs haven't matched that same intensity and competitiveness in the playoffs. Tavares was handed the C and a core group of talented superstars, and since the letter was stitched on his jersey, this Tavares-lead squad has won ONE playoff round in the last 6+ years.

3. The Tavares-lead Islanders had similar playoff success... none. Nothing. Zilch. Ironically, once Tavares left Long Island, the team played its best and their compete level ramped up.

So, do any of us have access to the Leafs room and know what JT says or doesn't say? Do we know how he handles his players in private? Of course not. However, we also didn't know what guys like Wendel, Gilmour, Sakic, Yzerman, Toews, Crosby, Pronger, Weber, etc. said in the room, but their leadership was clear based on results, and the competitive nature in which they and their teams played, especially in the playoffs.

Look at a player like Pronger for example... as a leader with the Ducks, helps them win a Cup. Then he goes to Edmonton and leads them to a Cup. Then he goes to Philly and leads them to a Cup. I think it's safe to say what type of leader Pronger is... not by the words we can't hear... but by results and patterns.

Regardless if it was the Islanders or currently the Leafs, team's lead by John Tavares have zero success. I mean, "can't even win a round more than once" type of anemic success. His teams' compete levels certainly seem to drop off when he's captain. And we have his entire career as a sample size. So, what, 13-14 years?

Note, this doesn't mean JT is a bad guy at all. For all indications he's an awesome human being. But sometimes these teams name players captain because "they're nice guys" or "they're responsible" or "they are family oriented and know how to raise kids" but all of that is completely irrelevant if they don't have alpha dog DNA and the willingness to grab their teammates, throw them on their back, and lead them to war, dragging them into the fight by any means necessary. And that, John Tavares certainly has never been able to do.

This is an excellent, well thought out post - not so much because I agree with almost all of it, but because it articulates what I was trying to convey in my previous reply but in much more logical, structured manner. Thanks for sharing.

 

[SImpelton]

OK let me preface this with some key facts as I see them

Key problems on the leafs

1. Key players are not movitated to perform
2. Key players occupy a great deal of cap space relative to their production
3. Team culture is obsessed with the playoffs and playoff expectations dominate thinking to an unhealthy degree
4. Team defense is weak, underfunded, and has mediocre fundamentals and skating ability
5. Weak defensive skating is preventing the forwards from making the most of their talent and forcing the forwards to skate 3 on 5 against good teams
6. Lack of continuity at goal is a contributing issue to this problem. This team cannot retain consistent goaltending, which exposes the D even more

How I'd address this in broad strokes:

1. draw down the forward corps. you do not need 4 superstar forwards in a sport where offense flows from the defense. This ridiculous build is analogous to spending all your cap on wide receivers and signing a cheep quarterback off the street and expecting that to go well. Forwards finish the offense, they don't create it on their own. It's hockey done backwards. One or two of the Core 4 needs to go. my picks would be Marner and Nylander. Marner because he doesn't seem to fit in Toronto but has enough talent to be of value to other teams, and Nylander because he's productive enough to be in demand -- you can clear more of his cap hit than you can someone like Taveras.
2. Invest in defensemen who can skate at an elite level. Edmonton is a good start, but we need talent above him on the depth chart. I look at Edmondton and I see Andrew Ference. Great middle pairing guy, but if he's in the top pairing something's wrong. So a top pairing defenseman who can skate and distribute the puck is a top offseason priority. I'm OK with less physical defensemen as long as they can cover their positions, but these guys have to be able to skate, take good angles, take strong positions, and distribute the puck creatively
3. Pick a goaltender and sign them to a 4 year deal. I don't care if it's Samsonov, I don't care if it's Woll, I don't care if it's someone not on the team. get someone in and LEAVE THEM in the net for multiple years. This thing where Leafs fans are forever blaming goaltending for flaws in other areas needs to end, and to do that, Leaf fans need to get used to the same face in net for an extended period of time again.
4. Commit to a slowdown and begin to rebuild from youth. The core 4, or whichever ones are left, are not that old. As the nucleus of a new youth movement they can provide value in the same way guys like Stamkos and Lecavalier did in their latter years, or like Martin St. Louis did for Stamkos and Lecavalier. But they need to be surrounded by young guns who want their jobs. They need to be surrounded by youthful, energetic players aggressively pushing to increase their role on the team. We need to give the young guns their chance to fail. And it needs to happen while we're working on the other issues

The following should be order of priority:
1: Defense
2: Goaltender
3: Center
4: Wing.

If you have a strong mobile defense and you've got good centermen then you can run trap style defenses that give the goaltender a much easier time, and spring forwards with outlet passes to keep the puck in the opposing zone. youth, energy and fundamentals are the key. I'd rather have energy, speed and discipline than physicality or raw scoring talent because the former leads to more wins than the latter.

One more thing before I go back where I come from. Stop trying to hire guys who once won a cup in a completely different system and assuming that'll work. It's led to some pretty awful coaching situations in Toronto and that's not likely to get better. Go grab guys who have made bad teams better rather than ones who took advantage of a good GM and a bit of luck to have a flash in the pan one year.

Also, and I know this is counterintuitive, but don't obsess about the playoffs or the players will play tight every spring. This is half the problem with the leafs right now with the media winding everyone up every April. Team needs to figure out how to keep the earplugs in come playoff time and just skate. Easier said than done, but it's the solution.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Maybe this has been posted, but it's worth re-posting, if someone hasn't seen it.

I like this. He's saying what most of us are feeling.

It makes me sad that he's probably right about "what will actually happen: nothing"

It's all we have, and it's all we've even known. Nothing will change...

 

[AvroArrow]

1) Fire Keefe
2) Ask Marner to waive his NMC, strip him of the A
3) Let Brodie + Gio walk
4) Re-sign Domi
5) Extend McCabe
6) Re-sign Bertuzzi
7) Re-sign Edmundson
8) Unsure about Lily, give him another 3 years if cheap
9) Find a 1B goalie to rotate with Woll
10) Ask Tavares to give the C to Matthews. Stripping him of it publicly is messy, make it a succession.

 

[Fogelhund]

Shanahan stays it seems....

 

[Nineteen67]

Thursday’s press meeting moved to Friday and Pelley will be joining

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[thewave]

Shanahan stays it seems....

Just abort support if all that happens. Watch in the POs next year if they make it. The bi polar owners cant make decisions because they are too scared of image and public perception.

Teams cooked. They lucked out at the draft and got 3 big time players and blew it ever since.

Rogers Bell is a bigger failure than TPP in a sense for the amount they squandered

 

[Shooter2x]

Top 4 mobile D, goalie and make sure Liljegren never sees another playoff game for us would be my priority.