What junior leagues are the best?

[nbwingsfan]

Im not looking at the quantity of first round picks - i’m looking at the quality of picks.

Since 2010 - the USHL has produced players like Matthews, Keller, Zegras, Hughes (x2), Knight, Tkachuk (x2), Eichel, Werenski, Boeser, Larkin, Jones, Trouba, Miller and Hayes.

Now I know for a fact the WHL doesn't have that kind of track record, and thats not even mentioning the past two drafts where the USHL took home the bacon.

It wasn’t asking who had the most stars… OP asked quality of the league as a whole.

Having 10-15 star players but very little of anything else isn’t as impressive as having a strong league overall

 

[GermanSpitfire]

It wasn’t asking who had the most stars… OP asked quality of the league as a whole.

Having 10-15 star players but very little of anything else isn’t as impressive as having a strong league overall

Strength of the league can be determined by the quality of talent that comes through it.

 

[nbwingsfan]

If you think MHL is in any way behing the CHL leagues you are mistaken. Also I think the swedish league should be higher on the list.

But in general it is not as simple as it might appear at first look. The major and most important difference for the players is the opportunity to play on higher levels which is not there in the CHL leagues(and USHL I guess).

So the answer would be (slightly )different if you are asking best leagues as the level of competition or best league for player development(which is key for prospects).

In general the CHL leagues are pretty much on par with the MHL as in level of competition. The division into three leagues hurts the CHL a bit too there. The USHL is probably slightly behind.

But the european leagues have the great benefit for prospects of allowing the prospect to move up and down between juniors and first and second division men's leagues. That is something the CHL lacks. For CHL players it's the CHL or NHL(and we all know very few can make that jump right away) and that only after the draft. They can't play on higher levels at age 17 or even younger. Also CHL teams are not affiliated with NHL teams. In Europe big league teams have a two or three level system of junior team, 2nd division team, top league team and the player can be observed and evaluated by the coaches within the system and moved to the level they deem him to benefit the most from playing at. And that on a nightly basis. A player can have a game or two in the big league than spend a month in junior with more icetime and agaist his peers.

This is one of the major factors why I see for Europeans developing at home until 21 at least(unless they are NHL ready phenoms at 18) is the best option. That applies to Russia, Sweden and Finnland likewise. Whether the dropoff in quality of junior and top leagues justify the same for say Czechs or Germans is an another topic again.

Purely on level of competition:

1. OHL, WHL, MHL
2. QMJHL, USHL
3. Superelit
4. U20 SM-Sarja

If the MHL (and other Euro leagues) are so much better at developing players than the CHL then why are they so, so much worse at creating NHL talent/stars?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Strength of the league can be determined by the quality of talent that comes through it.

Not at all. 10-15 stars and bottom barrel players isn’t as good as having potentially less “stars” but the better average player IMO

 

[bigdog16]

While the OHL has the largest pool of players/talent, the best CHL league changes from year to year. I would rank the leagues as:
1. CHL
2. USHL/NCAA
3. MHL
4. Superelit
5. SM-Sarjga

From a head to head standpoint the NCAA doesn't belong here. They would wipe the floor with any CHL team. From an NHL success rate/development standpoint sure

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Not at all. 10-15 stars and bottom barrel players isn’t as good as having potentially less “stars” but the better average player IMO

I guarantee you that the USHL has better “average” players than any other league.

 

[NTDP]

I guarantee you that the USHL has better “average” players than any other league.

The depth in the USHL is very good. Often there's lots of parity with the depth teams in that league. You see it with players that go on to the NCAA and when they're 22-23 they're getting signed as free agents by NHL teams.

 

[Hanji]

If the MHL (and other Euro leagues) are so much better at developing players than the CHL then why are they so, so much worse at creating NHL talent/stars?

Talent pool, perhaps? The talent pool the CHL draws from engulfs any other junior league - so of course they'll have more NHLers. But that doesn't make it an innately better league for development purposes. For an indepth analysis, you'd really have to analyze NHL players produced per league in relation to the number of players each league draws from. I suspect a smaller country like Sweden or Finland would take the cake in this regard.
Then again, the NHL isn't always every kid's dream gig, which sort of scews MHL figures as a lot of those dudes tend to stay home instead of trying for the NHL.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Can someone also explain why USHL players are eligible for the NCAA but not CHL?

 

[bigdog16]

Can someone also explain why USHL players are eligible for the NCAA but not CHL?

Long story short is USHL players don't get paid therefore can retain NCAA eligibility, CHL players get a small stipend

 

[NTDP]

Can someone also explain why USHL players are eligible for the NCAA but not CHL?

One of the reasons always stated is there's kids playing CHL that are signed under pro contracts and that's forbidden per the NCAA regulations. Another point I read a year or go somewhere is the NCAA I'm sure wants to also be looked at as a pro-first option for kids and not a "Safety net" for kids that go the CHL route and it doesn't work out for them turning pro at 20. CIS Canadian College is competitive hockey, but as a whole it's not the same level as the NCAA.

I don't know if covid changed one or two things but when I went to see Bowling Green play St. Thomas a few weeks ago, Austen Swankler was playing for BG, who played for the Erie Otters 2 years ago. But didn't last year because of COVID cancelling the OHL season

 

[nbwingsfan]

I guarantee you that the USHL has better “average” players than any other league.

Pretty debatable when comparing to the CHL

 

[Eye of Ra]

For me, the WHL is the clear cut best junior league. They produce a lot a NHL caliber defensemen. The league lean on the defense so it's harder for forward to produce. The OHL comes 2nd for the amount of NHL draft picks. The Q and USHL are really close in my book, USHL is clearly on the rise.

1. WHL
2. OHL
3.QMJHL
4. USHL
5. MHL
6. Czech U20
7. SuperElit
8. BCHL
9. U20 SM Sarja

What is your argument that Czech u20 is better than Superelit and SM Sarja?

 

[Hanji]

A good way to compare CHL to USHL is by looking at the NTDP.
Year in/out, the NTDP is usually rather average in the USHL. How would a comparable team Canada U18 do in the WHL, OHL, QMJHL?

 

[NTDP]

A good way to compare CHL to USHL is by looking at the NTDP.
The NTDP is usually pretty average at USHL level. How would a comparable team Canada U18 do in the WHL, OHL, QMJHL?

If you're looking at the win/loss record every year you need to remember the US U-17 team (16 year olds) plays the bulk of that schedule. The U-18 team plays about 1/3 or 1/4 of their games vs USHL, the rest vs NCAA opponents and in three international tournaments with the World U-18's at the end of the year. The "Team USA" in the standings is the U-17 and U-18 combined. If they make the USHL playoffs it's the U-17 team that represents Team USA. If you took the best 17 year old Canadian draft eligibles off their respective CHL teams and made a U-18 all star team they'd probably do pretty well too. Think of who'd be on that roster from across Canada with their '04 birth year group.

When the U-18's play vs USHL teams they have more wins than losses. This year's U-18 team has only 2 losses vs USHL teams and beat the Chicago Steel who's the best team in the league 5-1 and 7-5 recently. However, some of the better teams in the USHL beat the NTDP U-18's on any given year. I saw a Youngstown Phantoms team that had Kyle Connor on it beat Auston Matthews NTDP squad 6-2 in 2015. The USHL depth is right there

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Pretty debatable when comparing to the CHL

If it was the entire CHL, its a different story. But since we’re comparing the leagues within the CHL USHL has the edge.

 

[Atas2000]

If the MHL (and other Euro leagues) are so much better at developing players than the CHL then why are they so, so much worse at creating NHL talent/stars?

Are they?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Are they?

That’s I’m undeniable fact. Please point to how many Russian top 6f and top 4D players and them compare it to canadian numbers… it isn’t even close

FYI last year Canada had 11 top 20 scorers, Russia had 1 (at like 16th)….

 

[Atas2000]

That’s I’m undeniable fact. Please point to how many Russian top 6 vs top 4D players and them compare it co Canadian numbers… it isn’t even close

It is only an undeniable fact if you bend the facts and ignore context. And you do it so well that it's not even close. You don't understad that your argument is complete nonsense.

 

[Antiillafire]

This is too simple.

Imports do not add that much to the CHL. For example recently the russian imports are not the top players out of Russia and less and less are making the national junior teams.

Stars usually don't play in pro leagues on the regular basis but shift between leagues during the season.

But the most important part is no matter how big the canadian pool of players is there are 60 teams in the CHL, 34 in the MHL, only 20 in Superelit in Sweden.

I think we can agree that if condensed to 20-30 teams the CHL would have a much higher level of competition. And that is why 34 MHL teams (also drawing from a much wider geography than the KHL) easily on par with the better part of the CHL.


The Q is objectively weaker than the other two. Not by much, but still.

The comparison to the finnish league is misplaced as I never said it was better than any CHL league.

On the other hand your statements reveal a lot of misunderstanding of how those european leagues work.

MHL players are 16-20 year olds. It's not one year at a time. Most players spend as much time in the league as the CHL players. A lot play there in their draft year and beyond. As I wrote they can shift between leagues, but for example this upcoming WJC roster players on Team Russia who play in Russia will all have some MHL games this season on their resume including the 19 year olds from the 2021 draft. And those are the best selects. Also very few from the CHL will even have a chance to make the team.

This is simply not true. Maybe it is for Russia but certainly other euro nations it is not. And what’s with the lack of imports going to MHL? If it was such an excellent junior league than wouldn’t it attract more players from weaker European junior leagues? And by imports I’m not talking about some Belarussian or Ukrainians who will never amount to any pro career.

 

[Corso]

Really hard for most North Americans to rate the European junior leagues because we have very little exposure to them. I would have to think that the MHL, Superelit and SM Jara would battle for top spot for no other reason than they are all based in countries that have a proven track record of developing great players. In no way could I rank them being that I've never seen any of their games.
I do watch a ton of hockey in North America and can certainly provide my opinion as to what the best leagues are but what exactly is the criteria? Are we talking strictly about development or how a NAHL team would fare against a BCHL team? Are we talking about top end talent or depth of talent?

I've read the comments as to whether or not the USHL includes the NTDP or if the NTDP is exclusive. The way I see it, the NTDP is merely affiliated with the USHL and should not be considered a full member. The NTDP has the pick of the litter when it comes to American talent and even the USHL takes a back seat to the "program" The NTDP does not participate in the USHL draft (futures or entry) nor does it trade with any of the USHL clubs. Their try out camps and invitations usually preclude the USHL tender process and they have also been known to either "borrow" a player or simply outright sign a player from the USHL. Their U-17 team plays the bulk of the games against USHL clubs and is the team that participates in the USHL playoffs but even the U-17 team often loses their best players to the U-18 during the U-18 WJC.

In terms of head to head match ups between leagues, do not discount the NAHL. That league does not have any where near the talent of the USHL or the CHL but features older and stronger players who could give any USHL or CHL team a run for their money. The USHL is in a sense handicapped vs the CHL for the simple reason that they lose some of their best 18 year olds and the majority of their best 19 year olds to the NCAA. Owen Power, as an example, did indeed play for the Chicago Steel of the USHL but left after his 17 year old season to play for Michigan. This year the Steel feature one of the best young prospects in Adam Fantilli, a sure fire top 5 NHL draft pick in 2023. By then, however, he will have either played for Michigan in the NCAA or the OHL. The CHL in contrast keeps the vast majority of their best 18 and 19 year olds, giving those respective leagues in the CHL a leg up on the USHL.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It is only an undeniable fact if you bend the facts and ignore context. And you do it so well that it's not even close. You don't understad that your argument is complete nonsense.

Again … 11 of top 20 scorers were Canadian. One was Russian (at like 16). Please explain what I’m missing

 

[NTDP]

Really hard for most North Americans to rate the European junior leagues because we have very little exposure to them. I would have to think that the MHL, Superelit and SM Jara would battle for top spot for no other reason than they are all based in countries that have a proven track record of developing great players. In no way could I rank them being that I've never seen any of their games.
I do watch a ton of hockey in North America and can certainly provide my opinion as to what the best leagues are but what exactly is the criteria? Are we talking strictly about development or how a NAHL team would fare against a BCHL team? Are we talking about top end talent or depth of talent?

I've read the comments as to whether or not the USHL includes the NTDP or if the NTDP is exclusive. The way I see it, the NTDP is merely affiliated with the USHL and should not be considered a full member. The NTDP has the pick of the litter when it comes to American talent and even the USHL takes a back seat to the "program" The NTDP does not participate in the USHL draft (futures or entry) nor does it trade with any of the USHL clubs. Their try out camps and invitations usually preclude the USHL tender process and they have also been known to either "borrow" a player or simply outright sign a player from the USHL. Their U-17 team plays the bulk of the games against USHL clubs and is the team that participates in the USHL playoffs but even the U-17 team often loses their best players to the U-18 during the U-18 WJC.

In terms of head to head match ups between leagues, do not discount the NAHL. That league does not have any where near the talent of the USHL or the CHL but features older and stronger players who could give any USHL or CHL team a run for their money. The USHL is in a sense handicapped vs the CHL for the simple reason that they lose some of their best 18 year olds and the majority of their best 19 year olds to the NCAA. Owen Power, as an example, did indeed play for the Chicago Steel of the USHL but left after his 17 year old season to play for Michigan. This year the Steel feature one of the best young prospects in Adam Fantilli, a sure fire top 5 NHL draft pick in 2023. By then, however, he will have either played for Michigan in the NCAA or the OHL. The CHL in contrast keeps the vast majority of their best 18 and 19 year olds, giving those respective leagues in the CHL a leg up on the USHL.

I agree, good take. What this boils down to is you have to watch the games in these leagues. Anybody that says the USHL is lagging in depth to the other top leagues just isn't watching the games and seeing how good some of these players are that don't get the attention. Almost anybody playing in the USHL full time could also play major junior, and some of the best players in the USHL (not NTDP) would absolutely be in the top 6 on any CHL team.

I'll say this in regards to the NAHL - I watched the Blaine showcase for the first time this year and that's a legit league. Quick transition, physical hockey, and players showcasing a high hockey IQ. As the year goes on you see a lot of NCAA commits coming out of there.

 

[Zenos]

Either OHL or USHL is the best. OHL pulls from the biggest talent pool in Canada and USHL pulls players from across the USA.

The basic premise isn't wrong, but maybe a slightly simplistic way of looking at it as the CHL leagues can also pull players from the States and vice-versa though (plus Europeans through the import draft).

The NCAA ruling that USHL is strictly amateur while the CHL is not also affects things pretty significantly.

It's an interesting discussion though. For me, I think I'd still give the edge to the OHL and WHL in terms of top to bottom talent. But the USHL (and USNTDP) obviously have a ton of very high-end players.

 

[Favin]

I guarantee you that the USHL has better “average” players than any other league.

Without question if counting the USHL players who leave for NCAA.

It last draft:
USHL: 16 teams, 49 players drafted
CHL: 60 teams, 89 players drafted