What junior leagues are the best?

[Corso]

The OHL and WHL are basically the USHL if all the high end 18-20 year olds didn't leave to play NCAA.....the fact the USHL is as high a quality as it is with it's best players moving out year after year is unreal......

Not to beat a dead horse here, but that is precisely why the USHL is viewed as a step below the CHL. It's why Tkachuk went to the O after the NTDP or why Jones went to the Dub or why just recently Gushchin left Muskegon for Niagara. If the USHL could keep its top talent until the age of 20 and actually recruit the best U.S. born kids who opt for the NTDP then they indeed would be the best league in the world. It does not and that is why a USHL club would have a very difficult time competing in the Memorial Cup. They may have a talent laden squad like some the recent Chicago Steel rosters but they would be younger and face teams with an almost equal number of talented players but older and stronger.

 

[DatDude44]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but that is precisely why the USHL is viewed as a step below the CHL. It's why Tkachuk went to the O after the NTDP or why Jones went to the Dub or why just recently Gushchin left Muskegon for Niagara. If the USHL could keep its top talent until the age of 20 and actually recruit the best U.S. born kids who opt for the NTDP then they indeed would be the best league in the world. It does not and that is why a USHL club would have a very difficult time competing in the Memorial Cup. They may have a talent laden squad like some the recent Chicago Steel rosters but they would be younger and face teams with an almost equal number of talented players but older and stronger.

NTDP is in the USHL and gets first dibs on the best players at said age groups, no ushl team is "recruiting" it's all in the phase I and phase II drafts......guschin left muskegon because he thought he was playing pro in san jose....they sent him down to the OHL...

I wasn't saying the USHL is better....just that it does what it's designed to do which is develop and help move guys on to the next level which is the ncaa etc....

If they didn't have an NCAA to move guys onto....like the CHL leagues...it'd absolutely be on par talent wise with those 3

 

[Corso]

NTDP is in the USHL and gets first dibs on the best players at said age groups, no ushl team is "recruiting" it's all in the phase I and phase II drafts......guschin left muskegon because he thought he was playing pro in san jose....they sent him down to the OHL...

I wasn't saying the USHL is better....just that it does what it's designed to do which is develop and help move guys on to the next level which is the ncaa etc....

If they didn't have an NCAA to move guys onto....like the CHL leagues...it'd absolutely be on par talent wise with those 3

Actually all Junior teams recruit and the USHL more so than others through their tender process. The NTDP is affiliated with the USHL but I still dont consider them a full member. Guschin signed on to play with Niagara last season before signing with the Sharks but returned to Muskegon because the OHL delayed and cancelled their season. Absolutely agree with you that if the USHL didn't lose their young talent they would be everybit as good if not better than the CHL. As it stands though, they do lose that talent and USHL would have a difficult time competing with the best CHL teams

 

[Tripledeke333]

Benn, Getzlaf and keith were drafted well before 2010....and seth jones was ntdp first...... he didn't even mention schwartz and many others from USHL....

Take out Getzlaf, Benn and Keith and it is still an equivalent list. Plenty others from the WHL that I did not name.

 

[Tripledeke333]

Im not looking at the quantity of first round picks - i’m looking at the quality of picks.

Since 2010 - the USHL has produced players like Matthews, Keller, Zegras, Hughes (x2), Knight, Tkachuk (x2), Eichel, Werenski, Boeser, Larkin, Jones, Trouba, Miller and Hayes.

Now I know for a fact the WHL doesn't have that kind of track record, and thats not even mentioning the past two drafts where the USHL took home the bacon.

Leon Draistle = Mathews
Point = Eichel
Stone = Thachuck


I remain not convinced.

 

[DatDude44]

Actually all Junior teams recruit and the USHL more so than others through their tender process. The NTDP is affiliated with the USHL but I still dont consider them a full member. Guschin signed on to play with Niagara last season before signing with the Sharks but returned to Muskegon because the OHL delayed and cancelled their season. Absolutely agree with you that if the USHL didn't lose their young talent they would be everybit as good if not better than the CHL. As it stands though, they do lose that talent and USHL would have a difficult time competing with the best CHL teams

Let me rephrase of course they “recruit” but outside of potentially tendering and forfeiting their first and or 2nd rd pick depending on how many renders, they draft. Gusch was last year yes, but came back because covid, this particular year he thought he was playing pro and then got sent down to the O.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think there’s some middle ground. USHL may not be better than the best CHL leashes because it’s best players leave earlier, but if the players are better on average, it can also be better than the worst CHL leagues. That’s why I’d say it’s worse than OHL and WHL, but better than QMJHL.

 

[Remparts666]

find it fun to go back and read all of these knowlegeable takes here from guys who really know their stuff. 4 in a row, 7 in 11.
fixed it for you all:
Q.
OHL


WHL

 

[WarriorofTime]

find it fun to go back and read all of these knowlegeable takes here from guys who really know their stuff. 4 in a row, 7 in 11.
fixed it for you all:
Q.
OHL


WHL

The Q may be the best at stacking their best team, likely because they have the fewest teams, but I think they’re still behind on nhl draftees.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

find it fun to go back and read all of these knowlegeable takes here from guys who really know their stuff. 4 in a row, 7 in 11.
fixed it for you all:
Q.
OHL


WHL

You can't really base which league is the best based on a few single-elimination games. In terms of actually producing high-drafted players and NHL careers the Q is clearly behind the other 2 CHL leagues.

 

[Remparts666]

You can't really base which league is the best based on a few single-elimination games. In terms of actually producing high-drafted players and NHL careers the Q is clearly behind the other 2 CHL leagues.

It is the only point of comparison that is when they face each other (and there are round robin games as well).

You dont rate a league on the numbers of projectable NHL 4th liners it produces right? And the argument about stacking is even more ridiculous, it just cant be made by someone who has actually paid attention

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

It is the only point of comparison that is when they face each other (and there are round robin games as well).

You dont rate a league on the numbers of projectable NHL 4th liners it produces right? And the argument about stacking is even more ridiculous, it just cant be made by someone who has actually paid attention

You don't need to rely on a short sample size of direct competition to make a comparison.

There's a reason scoring in the Q doesn't translate to the NHL as well as scoring in the OHL and WHL.

 

[Remparts666]

You don't need to rely on a short sample size of direct competition to make a comparison.

There's a reason scoring in the Q doesn't translate to the NHL as well as scoring in the OHL and WHL.

Yes, and there are reasons why the next Conny Smith winner was not even drafted. I'll leave you making up your mind about it

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yes, and there are reasons why the next Conny Smith winner was not even drafted. I'll leave you making up your mind about it

Dude you're getting really defensive here. From watching the League, the OHL definitely has a lot more parity, the best kids are really spread out across the League. That's why a team that finished like 10th in the standings won the Playoffs. I think only like 4-5 kids from the Q made the Canadian World Juniors team. The Q is a have and have not kinda league. Some sort of All Star tournament amongst the leagues would make the Memorial Cup a better barometer of league strength, as it is, it's just one team (or two if a host team). How many kids from the Q will even go in the first two rounds? Ethan Gauthier, Etienne Morin, Mathiew Cataford.. and that's it potentially?

Quinnipiac won the NCAA Championship, they beat Michigan and Minnesota to do it. They still don't have better NHL prospects than Michigan or Minnesota. This is a pretty common trend in NCAA Hockey and Junior Hockey isn't radically different in this regard. For the purposes of this particular thread, the people aren't wrong. If you want to talk Memorial Cup, leave it in the CHL thread.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Yes, and there are reasons why the next Conny Smith winner was not even drafted. I'll leave you making up your mind about it

You think Marchessault was undrafted because he was French Canadian?

Lol.

 

[Postulates]

Yes, and there are reasons why the next Conny Smith winner was not even drafted. I'll leave you making up your mind about it

Jack Eichel was drafted 2nd overall in the 2015 draft though

 

[Remparts666]

Dude you're getting really defensive here. From watching the League, the OHL definitely has a lot more parity, the best kids are really spread out across the League. That's why a team that finished like 10th in the standings won the Playoffs. I think only like 4-5 kids from the Q made the Canadian World Juniors team. The Q is a have and have not kinda league. Some sort of All Star tournament amongst the leagues would make the Memorial Cup a better barometer of league strength, as it is, it's just one team (or two if a host team). How many kids from the Q will even go in the first two rounds? Ethan Gauthier, Etienne Morin, Mathiew Cataford.. and that's it potentially?

Quinnipiac won the NCAA Championship, they beat Michigan and Minnesota to do it. They still don't have better NHL prospects than Michigan or Minnesota. This is a pretty common trend in NCAA Hockey and Junior Hockey isn't radically different in this regard. For the purposes of this particular thread, the people aren't wrong. If you want to talk Memorial Cup, leave it in the CHL thread.

There are just so many faulty arguments here and my time is limited

You're referring to the NCAA and comparing one team with a higher average age to another. There's no connection.

You're referring to Q stacking; you clearly haven't followed in recent years.

You refer to the number of Q players making the WJC. There are reasons for this, and you and I will never agree on them, so there's no point arguing about it.

There's certainly a reason why a team that wins the OHL Championship gets blown out at the Memorial Cup. It speaks volumes about the quality of hockey being played in the league.

In terms of raw talent and skill, the Q. is at the top. For many players, the lack of size prevents them from breaking through to NHL level.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You're referring to the NCAA and comparing one team with a higher average age to another. There's no connection.

The connection is that there are more factors involved, when comparing why one team may be better at their level, compared to which teams have better NHL prospects. Overagers, Imports, top prospects that leave for the NHL before 19, trades from the middle of the league to the top of the league, etc.

You're referring to Q stacking; you clearly haven't followed in recent years.

The Q has less teams than the OHL and WHL, that is a FACT. That alone packs the league's talent closer together.

You refer to the number of Q players making the WJC. There are reasons for this, and you and I will never agree on them, so there's no point arguing about it.

Telling that you don't want to get into the "reasons"... because the most obvious "reason" is those kids aren't as good.

There's certainly a reason why a team that wins the OHL Championship gets blown out at the Memorial Cup. It speaks volumes about the quality of field hockey being played in the league.

No it doesn't speak "volumes". A league with a lot more depth and parity is a lot less likely to have a single dominant team compared to a league where the first two Playoff rounds are a joke because 80 % of the League consists of terrible teams that include a lot of kids that got cut from their OHL team.

In terms of raw talent and skill, the Q. is at the top. For many players, the lack of size prevents them from breaking through to NHL level.

This makes no sense. Are kids from eastern Canada more likely to be small? Is there something in the water that prevents a third of the country from having size?

 

[Castle8130]

@Remparts666 You need to find a healthier hobby. Trying to pick a fight with random people online to argue your favorite league is more talented than others is not a fun way to live.

 

[Remparts666]

@Remparts666 You need to find a healthier hobby. Trying to pick a fight with random people online to argue your favorite league is more talented than others is not a fun way to live.

You're right that I should not spend time arguing about it. It is just pointless. I remember being a bit frustrated about the lack of respect when reading this post. 4 in a row (never been done?), 7 in 11. Its the time of the year where champions actually play each other, but it does not mean anything? Right.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You're right that I should not spend time arguing about it. It is just pointless. I remember being a bit frustrated about the lack of respect when reading this post. 4 in a row (never been done?), 7 in 11. Its the time of the year where champions actually play each other, but it does not mean anything? Right.

It doesn't mean anything, you're right about that.

You never gave a reason as to why Marchessault went undrafted. You make it seem like there is some vendetta against French Canadians, but is it something else?

 

[Mrb1p]

You think Marchessault was undrafted because he was French Canadian?

LoLol.

I mean if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore centuries of prejudice be my guest, but the reality is that there is inherent bias in the relationship between canadians and Québécois, and I know this coming from a familly thats half Canadian and Half Québécois.

Closer to home though, there is clear bias against the Q too. We see players labelled as offense only and the likes way more often than not. Marchessault is a good example.

 

[Remparts666]

It doesn't mean anything, you're right about that.

You never gave a reason as to why Marchessault went undrafted. You make it seem like there is some vendetta against French Canadians, but is it something else?

I suspect size is the reason but you know it all could validate that. When comparing leagues, does being a projectable 4th liner at the NHL level really matter. I was just trying to expose the faulty argument but you saw racism right

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I suspect size is the reason but you know it all could validate that. When comparing leagues, does being a projectable 4th liner at the NHL level really matter. I was just trying to expose the faulty argument but you saw racism right

I said "There's a reason scoring in the Q doesn't translate to the NHL as well as scoring in the OHL and WHL." and somehow you thought Marchessault going undrafted was at all relevant?

I only bring up the French Canadian thing because that seemed to be what you were hinting at without ever saying it. You seemed to refer to it again when attempting to explain why Team Canada tends to have less Q players selected.

So go ahead, clear the air. Why is it that scoring in the Q translates to lower scoring in the NHL?

I mean if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore centuries of prejudice be my guest, but the reality is that there is inherent bias in the relationship between canadians and Québécois, and I know this coming from a familly thats half Canadian and Half Québécois.

Closer to home though, there is clear bias against the Q too. We see players labelled as offense only and the likes way more often than not. Marchessault is a good example.

Marchessault going undrafted had nothing to do with him being a French Canadian. Look at his draft year numbers and then look at his size.

 

[EdJovanovski]

MHL AINEC