What happened to Brodeur's legacy?

[JoeSakic13]

He’ll go down as the best St. Louis Blues goaltender in franchise history.

 

[Cup or Bust]

Brodeur was a franchise goalie but I don't think he was better than either Belfour or Kiprusoff. He makes an all-time list based on longevity and accolades but I personally don't think he was a better goalie than either. He just happened to play a lot of years for the most stingy defensive franchise of the last 30 years. That is not to take away from him as a goalie because he still had the pressure and still made the saves he needed to and won the games he won, you can't take that away from him. I just never found him to be a very dominant goalie. Throughout his entire career I considered him one of the better goalies in the league but never felt I was watching one of the best of all-time.

 

[Guttersniped]

While he was playing, he was a consensus top 3 goalie of all time. Roy, Hasek, Brodeur. You could put them in any order and no one could really tell you you were wrong.

Now a few years after his retirement, it seems he has plummeted down the all time rankings. Everyone has Roy/Hasek as 1/2 and Brodeur is only top 5 or top 10. The same tier as guys like Sawchuk or Dryden.

What happened?

I don’t remember that consensus. Sure he got media love while playing, but he still gets that.

But Brodeur had a pack of rabid detractors online, including someone with an infamous “Brodeur is a Fraud” blog.

It was definitely a thing on HFBoards throughout his career.

Those spicy takes were fueled by Luongo fandom and Roy fandom and hate from “the Devils ruined hockey” and absence of any decent goalie analytics and god knows what else.

That’s mostly gone away. This is a 2018 ESPN article looking back on this.

The “Brodeur is a Fraud” guy changed his tune in 2013

I don’t see any plummeting. People put these players in different order. I’ve seen Roy put ahead of Hasek and that seems like lunacy, but this stuff is subjective.

 

[Xirik]

Brodeur still is a top 5 goalie of all time and the people who try to tarnish his reputation are fans that even though they are older now still think Sean Avery was funny and people who feel the need to show how morally superior they are compared to others. You usually find them rushing to be the first to condemn or badmouth someone whenever a controversy comes up.

Why care what dregs of this website think?

 

[Brodeur]

Brodeur was a franchise goalie but I don't think he was better than either Belfour or Kiprusoff. He makes an all-time list based on longevity and accolades but I personally don't think he was a better goalie than either. He just happened to play a lot of years for the most stingy defensive franchise of the last 30 years. That is not to take away from him as a goalie because he still had the pressure and still made the saves he needed to and won the games he won, you can't take that away from him. I just never found him to be a very dominant goalie. Throughout his entire career I considered him one of the better goalies in the league but never felt I was watching one of the best of all-time.

Just to reiterate my earlier post, I think most people don't seem to give Brodeur credit for contributing to that level of stinginess. His puckhandling made life a lot easier on his D as he could diffuse a lot of dump ins on his own. Lou was slow to adapt to the idea that you ought to have righties play on the right side since Brodeur helped them out. New Jersey had some lackluster blue lines after the lockout but Brodeur had some of his better individual seasons.

2007-08 Devils defense:
Johnny Oduya (solid, but probably not an ideal top pairing guy) - Paul Martin (solid but had to play on right side)
Colin White (decent stay at home D) - Mike Mottau (picked up off the scrap heap, hadn't played in the NHL since 2003)
Vitali Vishnevski (could make some highlight reel hits but would be out of the NHL the following year) - Andy Greene (second year in NHL, still getting acclimated)

 

[pi314]

Friend of mine is a 14-year former NHLer and says Brodeur was the best he ever faced.

Was teammates with Roy for a period and said Patrick was a douche.

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

While he was playing, he was a consensus top 3 goalie of all time. Roy, Hasek, Brodeur. You could put them in any order and no one could really tell you you were wrong.

Now a few years after his retirement, it seems he has plummeted down the all time rankings. Everyone has Roy/Hasek as 1/2 and Brodeur is only top 5 or top 10. The same tier as guys like Sawchuk or Dryden.

What happened?

Cap.

Brodeur is one of the greatest ever. But he was never as good as them.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

He’s the GOAT by far

Most regular season wins. He carried numerous bad Devils teams to the playoffs - something Roy could never do

 

[Oddbob]

his time with New Jersey really tainted his legacy as a Blue

True. Everyone told him, don't go to New Jersey now, your career here will be ruined! But he knew better!

 

[These Are The Days]

A lot of all time greats are a perfect storm. You have the right guy in the right situation at the right time with the right talent around him. Brodeur was every bit as great on his own as he was a product of a system that revolutionized and transformed the NHL from about the mid 1990's til the lockout. It's not any different than if you wanted to call Joe Burrow the greatest college QB of all time. You have a hell of a great argument. And also remember the dude basically had an NFL-level offense around him in Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase and Clyde Edwards-Helaire and Chase and Jefferson can perhaps be considered the best receivers today.

That's Brodeur's career in a nutshell. In a NHL where Dom Hasek could literally save the universe on his own and Patrick Roy has a mind-boggling 151 playoff wins he does not get a lot of sympathy

 

[Toby91ca]

Maybe more of a discussion for the History of Hockey board.

One factor with time is that many fans nowadays might judge him solely based on save percentage numbers that they find on hockeydb. Even as a Devils fan, I would concede that there were better goalies at stopping the puck. Some fans discount Brodeur for having Stevens/Niedermayer in the first half of his career. Even though Brodeur had some of his best individual seasons after Stevens/Niedermayer were no longer there, some discredit the second half of his career as merely a product of a fabled system.

I don’t think it’s a stats thing, I think every single one of his stats are better than Roy’s.

 

[Oddbob]

He’s the GOAT by far

Most regular season wins. He carried numerous bad Devils teams to the playoffs - something Roy could never do

The guy faced 20-23 shots a game during his prime with the stingiest defence any goalie of that era had the pleausure of playing behind. Most of the shots he did face were of the crappy or less dangerous variety as it took a lot to get around the trap and be good offensively.

 

[hamzarocks]

The people who are down playings Marty's legacy are doing the same thing to Gretz legacy. Marty hung on for 3 years too long

The only ppl who are questioning Gret legacy are:

1) Lemieux Truther who think he was better/dominant than 99. Dont agree. He could have been had he been healthy but he wasnt so he falls somewhere 2-4 range

2) Mcdavid hypebeasts: Mcdavid is the most skilled and talented player since Lemiuex. Hes already the 5th best player ever and hes only entering year 9. He has a small chance to best Gretzky but its very small. Gretzky was a top 5 player in dead puck era at late 30s with a bad back.

Gretzky's legacy is likely never being touched

Only 2 true threats have existed. 1 couldnt try to beat him due to health/injuries and the other as great as he is, doesnt seem capable of dominating his peers like Gretzky did

 

[Seanaconda]

Turco was a better puck handler.

Yaya someone brought him up ! He had such a drastic fall from grace while still being quite young

 

[njdevils1982]

I don’t remember that consensus. Sure he got media love while playing, but he still gets that.

But Brodeur had a pack of rabid detractors online, including someone with an infamous “Brodeur is a Fraud” blog.

It was definitely a thing on HFBoards throughout his career.

Those spicy takes were fueled by Luongo fandom and Roy fandom and hate from “the Devils ruined hockey” and absence of any decent goalie analytics and god knows what else.

That’s mostly gone away. This is a 2018 ESPN article looking back on this.

The “Brodeur is a Fraud” guy changed his tune in 2013
View attachment 737816

I don’t see any plummeting. People put these players in different order. I’ve seen Roy put ahead of Hasek and that seems like lunacy, but this stuff is subjective.

i remember that post....right when he changed the blog site name.

 

[biturbo19]

I think it's partly just an artifact of how perceptions shift over time. He's caught in a little bit of an awkward middleground in a lot of respects.

He wasn't the otherworldly completely unique and never again to be replicated puckstopper like Hasek. He wasn't the defining pioneer at the cutting edge of the style of goaltending that has come to universally dominate the landscape ever since.

Brodeur's big contribution to the fabric of the game was basically...getting the trapezoid created. Which is interesting, but not necessarily a strictly "goaltending" thing. The way he actually stopped pucks was...not very revolutionary at all. In fact, i think it actually contributes to perceptions in the way he hung on a lot longer than pretty much anyone else playing a sort of standup hybrid.

That hurts perceptions where he starts to look like a bit of a "compiler" who just hung around forever and piled up wins on dominant teams behind an infamously robust defensive system. Especially with other more "modern style" netminders who had statistically similar or better numbers spelling him at times.

It also puts him into a weird crossover territory where he reaches back to an era that has started to fade from memory, but hasn't reached that historic nostalgia threshold yet per se. He sort of straddled two eras in a way. There's been enough time to really weigh what some of the older "all time greats" really achieved in context. It hasn't necessarily been as kind of Brodeur's contributions.



All that said though...I don't think he was ever seriously considered "Top-3 All Time". He was arguably Top-3 of that era, but there were always others with a claim who crossed over with different parts of his playing career at any given point.

He's firmly in that Top-5 of all time conversation. Not necessarily a lock, but he's got a darn strong case. So i don't think anything has particularly happened to his "legacy". So much as some people have had time to reflect and adjust what may have been overhype at times.

 

[Guttersniped]

The statistical renaissance we've seen the past ~10 years tends to lionize goalies with strong save percentages while dismissing wins as a team stat. Both of which disproportionately harm Brodeur more than his cohorts.

A lot of these rigorous statistical models are not really fair to Brodeur because his impact on the game was difficult to quantify with traditional metrics, and nearly all of his career was played before shooting data was recorded. So there's a lot of speculation about his situational performance and shot quality

Kids these days like the Devils because Jack Hughes is cool and they score a lot of goals, but even just a decade ago the New Jersey Devils were considered public enemy #1 by mainstream fans and media. Fans really enjoyed taking Devils players down a peg or two - since they killed hockey, you know? - and so a lot of people are overly dismissive of Brodeur because they hated the team he played for. I'm convinced that if Brodeur played in Toronto or Montreal that his face would be on the loonie by now.

I think if he retired after the 2012 run people would remember him a lot more fondly. He was bad his last few seasons.

The contrarian whining was at its peak when Brodeur was winning Vezinas, the angry mobs were dispersing by the end of his career.

There was a good amount of bitching in 2000s about Brodeur on HFBoards.

I still remember a very active poster who said Broduer was the ~5th (maybe lower lol) best goalie in the NHL when he was winning Vezinas.

You were here for it some it, 2007 was a rich lperiod as there was a rabid pro-Luongo faction very cranky at that point over Luongo not having won a Vezina.

Players ranking shift with different groups, at different times, for different reasons, so I need to know what ranking he’s referring to.

Most popular discussions skip pre-expansion goalies. Dryden is the only older post-expansion goalie who ranks near the top 3 and Brodeur typically gets ranked higher than him.

Any rankings involving all-time NHL goalies is beyond my pay grade, I can’t rank Plante, Sawchuk, etc

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

One things' for sure the dude was a workhorse. Twelve seasons he started 70 games or more.

He had 1,266 starts. That's over 200 more than Roy and over 500 more than Hasek.

He started 200+ more games than Luongo, who is next closest to him on the all-time list. That is some serious focus and durability.

I have Hasek as #1 all time but I do think Brodeur is starting to get underrated here. He was very good for a very long time.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think it's partly just an artifact of how perceptions shift over time. He's caught in a little bit of an awkward middleground in a lot of respects.

He wasn't the otherworldly completely unique and never again to be replicated puckstopper like Hasek. He wasn't the defining pioneer at the cutting edge of the style of goaltending that has come to universally dominate the landscape ever since.

Brodeur's big contribution to the fabric of the game was basically...getting the trapezoid created. Which is interesting, but not necessarily a strictly "goaltending" thing. The way he actually stopped pucks was...not very revolutionary at all. In fact, i think it actually contributes to perceptions in the way he hung on a lot longer than pretty much anyone else playing a sort of standup hybrid.

That hurts perceptions where he starts to look like a bit of a "compiler" who just hung around forever and piled up wins on dominant teams behind an infamously robust defensive system. Especially with other more "modern style" netminders who had statistically similar or better numbers spelling him at times.

It also puts him into a weird crossover territory where he reaches back to an era that has started to fade from memory, but hasn't reached that historic nostalgia threshold yet per se. He sort of straddled two eras in a way. There's been enough time to really weigh what some of the older "all time greats" really achieved in context. It hasn't necessarily been as kind of Brodeur's contributions.



All that said though...I don't think he was ever seriously considered "Top-3 All Time". He was arguably Top-3 of that era, but there were always others with a claim who crossed over with different parts of his playing career at any given point.

He's firmly in that Top-5 of all time conversation. Not necessarily a lock, but he's got a darn strong case. So i don't think anything has particularly happened to his "legacy". So much as some people have had time to reflect and adjust what may have been overhype at times.

I think you’re underrating the sweeper keeper aspect. Brodeur’s ability to play the puck was generational and did so much to make the Lemaire system work as well as it did.

 

[Brodeur]

The guy faced 20-23 shots a game during his prime with the stingiest defence any goalie of that era had the pleausure of playing behind. Most of the shots he did face were of the crappy or less dangerous variety as it took a lot to get around the trap and be good offensively.

This seems like an overly simplistic view like the Devils were the only team who played the trap? As I mentioned in a previous post, the Brodeur era Devils were always among the least penalized teams in the league. That went for awhile post-lockout after Stevens retired and Niedermayer departed.

2005-06: 1/30
2006-07: 1/30
2007-08: 5/30
2008-09: 9/30 -- Brodeur missed a few months with injury
2009-10: 1/30
2010-11: 1/30
2011-12: 10/30
2012-13: 22/30
2013-14: 13/30 -- split season with Schneider
-- Brodeur departs
2014-15: 24/30
2015-16: 20/30
2016-17: 22/30
2017-18: 17/30

Just because I needed the nightmare fuel, here were the D that Lou put together post-lockout. Some folks were certain Brodeur would get exposed after Stevens/Niedermayer left but he had some of his better individual seasons. I think you're being cynical if you don't want to give Marty some credit for making these groups look better than they were:

2005-06
White (21:48) - Rafalski (25:32)
Matvichuk (18:13) - Martin (23:37)
Lukowich (19:11) - Klee (15:03)
------
Hale (12:03) - Albelin (13:59)
Brown (15:22)
McGillis (14:14) - Malakhov (20:44)

In the wake of Niedermayer/Stevens not returning, Lou mistakingly brought in Dan McGillis and Vladimir Malakhov. To his credit, he realized his error. McGillis was jettisoned to the AHL and never played in the NHL again. Malakhov left and never came back. We didn't know it at the time, but this would also be Richard Matvichuk's last season in the NHL.

Lukowich and Klee were brought in at the deadline. Somehow this team won the division.

2006-07
White (22:28) - Rafalski (25:29)
Lukowich (20:13)- Martin (25:13)
Hale (9:41) - Oduya (18:31)
------
Greene (14:15) - Brooks (8:39)
Fraser (3:34) - Fahey (10:47

More stability than the previous year. Johnny Oduya was signed an unheralded free agent from Europe and was solid. But definitely not an awe inspiring defense.

2007-08
Oduya (19:02) - Martin (23:53)
White (19:40) - Mottau (20:39)
Salvador (20:54) - Greene (19:30)
-------
Vishnevski (15:32) - Rachunek (19:23)
Brookbank (15:08)

Unfortunately Lou lowballed Rafalski who took a better deal with Detroit. Vitali Vishnevski was signed to a 3 year deal but he only played one before he was sent to Russia. This would also be Rachunek's (RIP) last season in the NHL. Mike Mottau hadn't played in the NHL since 2003 and suddenly was a 20 minute guy playing on his weak side. Bryce Salvador was brought in at the deadline and Andy Greene started to show glimpses. Brodeur won a Vezina this season with an almost all left shot defense. Brookbank had a breakout AHL season and the Devils claimed him with the hopes he might be a RD option but that never really materialized.

2008-09
Oduya (20:52) - Martin (24:22)
Salvador (19:29) - Greene (16:17)
White (19:01) - Mottau (17:47)
-------
Salmela (15:10) - Havelid (19:43)
Leach (14:50) - Brookbank (8:51)

Some continuity from the previous season. But still not exactly a defense that I would characterize as amazing by any stretch of the imagination.

2009-10
Oduya (21:11) - Martin (22:30)
Salvador (18:52) - Greene (23:32)
White (20:04) - Mottau (22:16)
--------
Skoula (18:37)
Fraser (12:23) - Murphy (12:26)

From what I remember, Oduya signed an extension and really struggled this season before he was included in the Kovalchuk trade. Greene had an offensive breakout. Philadelphia exploited our all left shot D in the playoffs.

2010-11
Greene (22:22) - Fayne (17:50)
Tallinder (22:32) - Volchenkov (18:06)
White (18:51) - Salmela (17:24)
---------
Salvador (DNP) - Corrente (13:36)
Fraser (13:59) - Magnan (15:43)
Taormina (20:40)

This was the Murphy's law season where things fell apart. Paul Martin left as a free agent and the team signed Henrik Tallinder and Anton Volchenkov. Bryce Salvador missed the season with injury. Colin White would be bought out in the offseason and retire a year after that. Mark Fayne was a first year pro who was probably #12 or #13 on the depth chart to start the season. If only because he was RH, he ended up sticking.

2011-12
Greene (19:30) - Fayne (20:11)
Salvador (20:13) - Zidlicky (22:34)
Tallinder (21:19) - Volchenkov (17:59)
--------
Taormina (16:32) - Larsson (20:37)
Harrold (14:36) - Foster (17:09)

Lou finally added some right shot D. Drafted Adam Larsson, brought in Anton Stralman on a PTO, and traded for Kurtis Foster. At the deadline, he added Marek Zidlicky. Solid group but probably not an All-Star among the bunch. A 39/40 year old Brodeur backstopped this group to a SCF appearance.

 

[Thechozen1]

He’s the GOAT by far

Most regular season wins. He carried numerous bad Devils teams to the playoffs - something Roy could never do

I love Brodeur and have him firmly in the top 3 if that era (top 5 all time) but let’s not downplay ROY. Roy out duelled Brodeur the only time they faced each other in the Stanley Cup Final and Brodeur had the 3-2 series lead.

Roy was pretty instrumental in the Canadiens 1993 Cup victory.

 

[ricky0034]

the masses always overhype all-time greats towards the end of their career and that goes away as time passes and they're no longer the current trend

like how at the end of Lidstrom's career you kept seeing people say he was easily the #2 all time at his position and a surprisingly high amount of people even going so far as to say he was better than Orr but now that he's been retired for a while people are back to largely viewing him as worse than Bourque

 

[983 others]

hes universally regarded as a top 7ish or better goalie in the history of the sport

seems like a fine legacy

 

[biturbo19]

I think you’re underrating the sweeper keeper aspect. Brodeur’s ability to play the puck was generational and did so much to make the Lemaire system work as well as it did.

I don't think i'm really underrating it. It's noted and he was undeniably influential in some rule changes, which is a big deal. A lot of that was all just geared at breaking up the system though, more so than goaltender puckhandling specifically. The two are kind of intrinsically linked, and that's where...purely as a goaltender, i don't like to inflate the value of that sort of "bonus" ability. It feels like attributing to goaltending, something that is equally attributable to systems play.


The reality is, rules changes or not...that ability to handle the puck, direct rebounds as though they're outlet passes, etc...just never really caught on. It was a different evolution of the old stand-up style, but a branch that largely died out.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't think i'm really underrating it. It's noted and he was undeniably influential in some rule changes, which is a big deal. A lot of that was all just geared at breaking up the system though, more so than goaltender puckhandling specifically. The two are kind of intrinsically linked, and that's where...purely as a goaltender, i don't like to inflate the value of that sort of "bonus" ability. It feels like attributing to goaltending, something that is equally attributable to systems play.


The reality is, rules changes or not...that ability to handle the puck, direct rebounds as though they're outlet passes, etc...just never really caught on. It was a different evolution of the old stand-up style, but a branch that largely died out.

I'm not sure why you'd say "purely as a goaltender" as though it doesn't factor into his overall positional value?

This reminds me of when people talk about a player like Erik Karlsson or whatever and pound their fist "A DEFENSEMAN'S JOB IS TO DEFEND! PERIOD!"

The reason it hasn't "caught on" is simple, most goaltenders just can't do what Brodeur did, it doesn't make Brodeur's value artificially lower. It's just really rare across hockey history.