What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[Toby91ca]

Well, nobody’s ever had more 50 goal seasons than Ovi, so he sets the bar there. He got very close again on multiple occasions (46, 48, 49 goal season), and you need to factor in lockouts and the pandemic.

16 years separate his 1st and last 50 goal seasons.

Going to be super nerd here.....you are correct that no has more 50 goal seasons, but 2 other guys have the same number....but in terms of OV setting the bar, I guess you have to say Bossy set the bar for 50 goal seasons and no one has surpassed it yet.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

not trying to shit on him at all. just didnt score 50 goals every season. its actually crazy that hes prob had more 50s in his 30s than he did in his 20s. I could be wrong on that though

Kuch and other players have lost close to as many games with covid shutting down seasons but OV missed his 1st season to a lock out so he prob lost more games

Didn’t imply that you were shitting on him,just supporting my argument of consistency.

Although he didn’t hit 50 every single year, his career average at the end of the 2021-22 season was exactly 50 goals per season.

Ovechkin lost time to the lockout in 2012-13. He had a great season that year, winning the Hart and Rocket, and he was well on his way to hit 50 (might have even pushed for 60).

Kucherov was a late bloomer, that’s the main difference I see. If he had been a 100+ point player from his first 2-3 seasons, he’d be held in much higher regard (like McDavid for example).

 

[Video Nasty]

Good god people, let the Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin era go. Had to listen to the baloney that they were better than everyone before them when they first entered the league and now that the shoe is on the other foot, surprise surprise, certain fans can’t let go of their childhood superheroes and supposedly, their era is now a magical frozen in time world that was better than whatever preceded and came after.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Going to be super nerd here.....you are correct that no has more 50 goal seasons, but 2 other guys have the same number....but in terms of OV setting the bar, I guess you have to say Bossy set the bar for 50 goal seasons and no one has surpassed it yet.

That’s a bit pedantic, but yes, Bossy and Gretzky were born before Ovi.

The point I was trying to make is that we cannot reasonably expect anyone to have double digit 50 goal seasons, as it’s never been done before. Ovi was 1 goal away from this accomplishment when considering his 49 goal result in 2018.

 

[JFedol]

Obviously he needs more Harts and arguably awards, but Kuch in my eyes has always been the better player, and has already done more damage than Ovechkin has done or accomplished, both in the regular season and playoffs. Shame me all you want, but if I could care less or give 2 f***s about Ovi's 9 rockets. If he somehows manages to clear 200 career playoff points, win another Ross in the McDavid Era no less, average more 100pt+ seasons and sustain his excellence in his mid to late 30s, Win another cup lol, don't think there would be any f***ing argument as to which who's the better and greatest player IMO.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Assuming Kucherov wins the Art-Ross/Hart/Lindsey this season (most deserving anyways), what else would he need to add to his resume to be able to catch OV and become the greatest Russian player to play in the league?

His playoff resume is already above OV's and you could now argue that his peak also is.

What does Kucherov need to become the greatest russian to ever play in the NHL?

To change his name to Pavel Datsyuk

 

[Planetov]

Missing 1 Stanley Cup, 3 Prince Wales Cup, 1 Art trophy.

Two of these are team trophies.

Cups which have more value than the Richard Trophy,

This is a strawman.

which disinterests practically all elite players.

This is an utterly, blatantly ridiculous statement. At this point I’m convinced that you hate goals. If Ovechkin stated he likes oxygen you just might suffocate.

What did Ovechkin's goals bring to Washington ? 1 title in 20 years, the only one that Washington reached the conference finals. Not crazy compared to Tampa's 6 appearances with Kucherov.

Both of these players play for TEAMS. TEAMS reach Conference Finals as a group. Direct your criticism toward team accomplishments to the team.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Assuming Kucherov wins the Art-Ross/Hart/Lindsey this season (most deserving anyways), what else would he need to add to his resume to be able to catch OV and become the greatest Russian player to play in the league?

His playoff resume is already above OV's and you could now argue that his peak also is.

Unless Kucherov breaks a record he’s not on pace to break, he’s going to finish at best #2.

Damn good player in any event.

 

[TheNorth]

120 assists

 

[wetcoast]

There is an assumption here that OV is the greatest ever Russian born player. IMO he’s not. Kucherov is a great player. There are other Russian players who were better though.
Is Kucherov better than ov. That’s close between those two. But there have been a lot of fabulous Russian born players.

While I think that you make a good point here its hard to say that any Russians are better all time than Ovi though as he did it in the best league in the world while others like Makarov for instance who i like alot did his best under different conditions in the 80s.

 

[wetcoast]

2013: Sucks that Crosby missed time that year for sure. But that's not Ovi's fault. He lead the league in goals (10% lead over #2), and was 3rd in points (4 points behind #1, who had almost half the goals that year). Ovi still had the best season that year (even if Crosby was the better player that year).

The reason that i was and still is a weak Hart is the unbalanced schedule where Ovi basically went off against one division and was pretty meh against the rest of the conference and yes Crosby was only afew actual voting points behind him overall despite missing 1/4 of the season.

Put another way Ovi has had better seasons when he didn't win the Hart than this one and if you look at it closely you will see what I'm talking about here.

Also people bring up the Ovi had a weak supporting cast argument, often wrongly IMO but it still comes up, and Tavares in 14-15 was much more "valuable" to hi team in 14-15 than Ovi was as I will outline below.

In the 12-13 season Ovi had Backstrom and a really good playmaker in Mike Riberio on that team.

Ovi was also 28th in ESP in 12-13 so he was a PP darling and much less a force at ES.

Sure PPP count just as much on the scoresheet but I'm consistent with Mario historically as well give me the ES scorer over the PP guy 8 days a week and 28th in ESP is just really low for a Hart winner IMO.

the unbalanced schedule also really helped this weak Hart trophy.

Against the weak southeast division Ovi does look Hart worthy with a line of

18-16-13-29 (+10)

But against the other 2 eastern conferences this was his line.

30-16-11-27 (-8)

It truly was a weak Hart and frankly other guys were more Hart worthy and 2 Canadians (just for you MJ) really got shafted in Hart voting in Stamkos and MSL who were a distant 8 and 9th in voting along with John Tavares once again.

2015: PP points still count man, and realistically that powerplay was good BECAUSE of Ovechkin. Outside of Backstrom having a good point total (largely due to Ovechkin), look at how much Ovi carried that team lol. Tavares had a good season, but we all know that a huge advantage in goals > a small advantage in points. Tavares had 5 more points, but Ovechkin had FIFTEEN more goals. That's huge and you know it.

	Points
Ovechkin	81​
Backstrom	78​
Carlson	55​
Johansson	47​
	Goals
Ovechkin	53​
Brouwer	21​
Johansson	20​
Fehr	19​

Sure part of that is Ovi being the shooter on the PP and having not one but 2 excellent playmakers on the PP in Backstrom and Mike Green.

But all of this seems moot as you seem to really lean towards the goal scoring argument so you must have Austin really high on your Hart ballot this year right?

 

[wetcoast]

Obviously he needs more Harts and arguably awards, but Kuch in my eyes has always been the better player, and has already done more damage than Ovechkin has done or accomplished, both in the regular season and playoffs. Shame me all you want, but if I could care less or give 2 f***s about Ovi's 9 rockets. If he somehows manages to clear 200 career playoff points, win another Ross in the McDavid Era no less, average more 100pt+ seasons and sustain his excellence in his mid to late 30s, Win another cup lol, don't think there would be any f***ing argument as to which who's the better and greatest player IMO.

Some ifs there to be sure but if Kuch keeps this prime going along with some more playoff individual success sure but those are still ifs.

 

[eviohh26]

Kucherov is coo and all that but he plays at the highest scoring of my life time. My Eye test doesn't even say he is better than Federov Datsyuk or Malkin.

 

[Lou Sassole]

In some way you may be right, but Fedorov's peak is too short by all accounts. If what you're implying is right, Fedorov will be perennially underrated.

(This is my meta analysis and prediction. I am in no position to compare Fedorov vs. Kucherov, I like to read people who put their time in discussing.)

People do really underrate Fedorov. He lined up as a Dman at times for Detroit and Washington. He was remarkable.

 

[Lou Sassole]

Love Kucherov but this is Ovechkin easy. Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin played their primes in a lower scoring, tougher, more violent era, with goalies that looked like the Michelin man.

McDavid/Kucherov/MacKinnon are fantastic talents but this current era is much easier for superstars. Can gallop around the ice untouched and the goalies have smaller pads. All three really took off with their gaudy numbers after the pad sizes were reduced in 17-18.

How are people seemingly ignoring this. I can't imagine the numbers Prime Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, etc... would put up against the defense played today and goalie pads since then.

 

[Lou Sassole]

2013: Sucks that Crosby missed time that year for sure. But that's not Ovi's fault. He lead the league in goals (10% lead over #2), and was 3rd in points (4 points behind #1, who had almost half the goals that year). Ovi still had the best season that year (even if Crosby was the better player that year).

2015: PP points still count man, and realistically that powerplay was good BECAUSE of Ovechkin. Outside of Backstrom having a good point total (largely due to Ovechkin), look at how much Ovi carried that team lol. Tavares had a good season, but we all know that a huge advantage in goals > a small advantage in points. Tavares had 5 more points, but Ovechkin had FIFTEEN more goals. That's huge and you know it.

	Points
Ovechkin	81​
Backstrom	78​
Carlson	55​
Johansson	47​
	Goals
Ovechkin	53​
Brouwer	21​
Johansson	20​
​

Yeah so that's the reward for the excuse. I struggle with the idea of establishing a guy as better than a guy over an idealization of what he could have done. Same for Sabonis. We established a myth because in one match he dominated Robinson but, I am very skeptical of the idea that he was really better than him.

If Markov and Gonchar had experienced the same thing, we could have built the same myth but we clearly saw that they were far from Lidstrom.

In general, we saw that there were no big differences between performances in Europe and North America. If you're good in Europe, you're good in North America. You adapt very quickly and if you're not able to adapt, it's because you're not that strong.

Fetisov was the best Soviet defender in the 80s but he's not worth much on a global scale. The best current Russian defender is far from the best.

If you question how great Sabonis was at his peak, then your credibility is gone. Do some research. Before he blew his achilles he was a marvel, and was still a great, great player after.

 

[Lou Sassole]

Interesting how you only include points but not goals as if it isn't Hockey fact that scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in the game. I also like how you don't even mention at all entirely that Ovechkin is about to break arguably the hardest sports record.

Maybe Ovie had to be a bit more selfish because unlike Kucherov who played his career with 3 other already locks for HOF (Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy) and 90%+ likely 4 (Point), Ovechkin basically has one guy with an outside shot of getting in in Backstrom.

The bottom line is you don't pass the greatest goal scorer of all time because you did something that 2 other guys also did. He also gets docked heavily for cheating his way to a cup and just in general being a whiny cry baby


Lmfao yeah most overrated about to break one of the hardest records in all of sports from arguably the greatest figure in all of sports.....definitely overrated, unlike Kucherov who is surrounded by HOF but still needs to cheat his way to a cup.

Ovechkin turned Chris Clark into a 30 goal scorer as his RW. Chris Clark. The idea that Ovie doesn't make linemates better is insane.

 

[Heffyhoof]

Good Lord, the new flavour of the month syndrome has extended far enough to now pooping on the superstar of only yesteryear, instead of the older ones. Prime Ovi and Crosby were otherworldly players, to the point they're still in the tops of scoring over a decade later. McDavid, Kucherov and Matthews are all amazing history book players, but none of them are on the same level.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Two of these are team trophies.

This is a strawman.

This is an utterly, blatantly ridiculous statement. At this point I’m convinced that you hate goals. If Ovechkin stated he likes oxygen you just might suffocate.

Both of these players play for TEAMS. TEAMS reach Conference Finals as a group. Direct your criticism toward team accomplishments to the team.

Team trophies matter more than individual trophies. Especially since the Tampa dynasty, it starts with Kucherov. He is the No. 1 face of this dynasty. Washington has never been one. Kucherov helped his team be a dynasty. Ovechkin's goals didn't do much for Washington.
Anyway, among the individual trophies, Kucherov is missing nothing. His 2nd Art compensates for the absence of a Hart. Hart & Lindsay is practically the same thing. And the Rocket Trophy is none of his business. Matthews is out to win it every year and all the McDavids, Kucherovs, McKinnons don't care.
And these are trophies won against a better generation and the craziest player in the history of this sport in his prime.

That pretty much sums up the careers of both. Ovechkin and his ultra-individualistic game, to which the coach had to think of playing patterns for the players around him, put him in the best possible condition. His individual aura will have cost a more deserving teammate a Smythe. Kucherov and his altruistic play focused on others, who makes the system, organizes the game. He makes his teammates better and his team better.

Tampa has indefinitely scored more goals with Kucherov on the ice than with Ovechkin.

Yes Ovechkin scores more goals but he doesn't help his teammates score. Kucherov scores less and not much less, by shooting less often but creating indefinitely more goal-scoring situations for his teammates.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

If you question how great Sabonis was at his peak, then your credibility is gone. Do some research. Before he blew his achilles he was a marvel, and was still a great, great player after.

Yes I know the legend but I have strong doubts. His injury dates back to 1987 and he faced Robinson a second time in 1988. He was doing very well when he was in ACB. He was just a very good pivot comparable to Mutombo in a different register.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

I would wager that in the eyes of the vast majority, he will never surpass Ovi.

There will be a small minority that will think kuch was better, but that's what it will be - a very small minority.

 

[Nsjohnson]

Team trophies matter more than individual trophies. Especially since the Tampa dynasty, it starts with Kucherov. He is the No. 1 face of this dynasty. Washington has never been one. Kucherov helped his team be a dynasty. Ovechkin's goals didn't do much for Washington.
Anyway, among the individual trophies, Kucherov is missing nothing. His 2nd Art compensates for the absence of a Hart. Hart & Lindsay is practically the same thing. And the Rocket Trophy is none of his business. Matthews is out to win it every year and all the McDavids, Kucherovs, McKinnons don't care.
And these are trophies won against a better generation and the craziest player in the history of this sport in his prime.

That pretty much sums up the careers of both. Ovechkin and his ultra-individualistic game, to which the coach had to think of playing patterns for the players around him, put him in the best possible condition. His individual aura will have cost a more deserving teammate a Smythe. Kucherov and his altruistic play focused on others, who makes the system, organizes the game. He makes his teammates better and his team better.

Tampa has indefinitely scored more goals with Kucherov on the ice than with Ovechkin.

Yes Ovechkin scores more goals but he doesn't help his teammates score. Kucherov scores less and not much less, by shooting less often but creating indefinitely more goal-scoring situations for his teammates.

You can't be much more wrong and this leads me to believe you did not watch Ovechkin for the first half of his career. I read about 20 of your other replies through this thread and you basis for many of your arguments are flawed.

Ovechkin at his peak is a single entity unlike anything hockey has ever seen.

Kucherov may go down as the second best Russian to play the game.

Second.

Just be happy this is the case.

Oh and just an FYI, Ovechkin can hang with the best of 'em passing.

 

[kp61c]

Kuch has always been a better player. This season makes it AINEC.

 

[pld459666]

Different players with different skill sets.

 

[Planetov]

Team trophies matter more than individual trophies.

This is a strawman.

Especially since the Tampa dynasty, it starts with Kucherov. He is the No. 1 face of this dynasty. Washington has never been one.

Buddy, the overwhelming majority of teams haven’t been dynasties.

Anyway, among the individual trophies, Kucherov is missing nothing. His 2nd Art compensates for the absence of a Hart.

You can’t just make this claim to spin your narrative and have it be true. This is once again you diminishing the accomplishments a player you don’t like.

And the Rocket Trophy is none of his business. Matthews is out to win it every year and all the McDavids, Kucherovs, McKinnons don't care.

Your claim is that players don’t win trophies because they don’t care? Please tell me you see what a bonkers take this is.

That pretty much sums up the careers of both. Ovechkin and his ultra-individualistic game, Kucherov and his altruistic play

This is just satire at this point. You don’t have to make a hero vs villain screenplay to make your point.