Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller?

[Cupless44]

Erik Haula to Carolina, nice pickup.

Decent players moving from cap strapped teams for cheap. Except to Vancouver where we have a dummy for a GM who over pays as always.

 

[Tables of Stats]

They might match but it's worth a shot. It would put some of those teams in a tough spot especially Leafs and Sharks.

If it's such an amazing idea why hasn't a single team gone for an offer sheet this offseason? Offer sheets are one of those things fans love but GMs rarely use.

 

[Canucks1096]

If we're willing to give up a 1st+3rd to TB for Miller why didn't we just wait till July 1st and offersheet a RFA at $6.3 or less. Compensation is... 1st + 3rd.
Players better and younger than Miller that would likely sign for $6.3 or less include Meier, Konecny, Labanc, Vrana, Kapanen, Johnsson, or dmen like McAvoy and Provorov.
I wonder if Benning thinks offersheets are offlimits because they're "mean".

Because 2020 is a deep draft, so Canucks are guarantee to give away their 1st round pick in 2020. Miller trade they are guarantee not to give up a lottery pick in 2020

Also it takes two to tango. Just because giving an offer sheet. It doesn't mean the player will accept it.

Also kapanen, Johnsson and bunch and few others are not better than Miller.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Let's backtrack one moment. Your argument is JB accepted the first offer and didn't negotiate. Where does it say that on your link that you posted?

Not haggling for days and weeks and got back to Tampa at the draft doesn't = No negotiating. This is just my opinion, I think you read this and painted false perception in your head and you made up your own story without knowing

First time they chatted, JB could of asked for a lower price. Just because they didn't wait days or weeks doesnt mean they didn't negotiate and just accepted it.

I doubt Tampa is foolish enough to start for a much higher asking price than what was announced as the trade.
That would be a nonstarter. Im guessing Tampa asked for 1st + 3rd and Jim said ok but the 1st slides if we dont make the playoffs and Tampa said done before Jim could finish.

 

[Scott Stevens]

This is how much thought Benning puts into trades and signings. Just casual pushes of buttons in between Words With Friends and Kuku Kube.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

that didn't age well

The equivalent of drinking wine out of the barrel.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Agree, it's kind like if an employee is always late for work, pretend the employee is an accountant, the boss has a bad perception of this employee, so the boss automatically think the employee doesn't have the skills to do the accounting work properly because he is late for work. even though being late has nothing with the actual skill of the job. The boss are already painted a false perception of this employee in his head.

Similar to some people that don't like Benning. All the Benning hater has this bad image of him in their head. Whatever he does they can turn it into more negative than it really is. By looking at the Miller stat line of 13 goals last year, 10 and 13 goals split between the NY/Tampa. They misread no 20 goals in the last 3 years because they already have a bad image of Benning in their head. Their head was reading something else because of the bad image.

Wrong perception happens when you have negative impression of something. Your brain plays tricks on you

The complex explanation you posted is called confirmation bias, (where people look/see just the information that confirms what they already think) and it's been argued to death since Benning traded Kesler away for Sbisa.

That said, objectively, in the current market, and in this current situation, Benning didn't fare well in this trade. Is it apocalyptic bad? No. Was it yet another example of Benning being bad at his job, yes.

There are examples of posters that are intelligent about their biases; mainly find a good deal done by Benning and check the responses. Most recently, the Edler deal.

Now, since we're talking about psychology, you should look up "projecting". It loosely means, you see traits in others that you have yourself. Because the same exact way one can have confirmation bias for Benning being terrible, one can have it about virtually anything; such as seeing everyone else being "Benning haters with confirmation bias".

Wrong impressions can happen when you have positive perceptions as well. Your brain plays tricks on you.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

If you ask yourself what is a 26 year old 55 to 60 point winger with a good contract worth? Then compare it to what the Canucks got and ask yourself realisticly where would that 1st round pick be. Then you realized he didn't get really get killed.

Let me help you

Let's say the pick ends up being the 15th pick and a 3rd round pick


Considering the fact, Hawks got two 2nds for salary dump in Shaw and Wash got a 2nd and a 3rd for Johanssen. Miller is better than both of them so he should get more.

Then you realized you are right Canucks1096. He didn't really killed in this trade, maybe a slight overpayment.

Considering the team was against the cap, the above is pretty irrelevant.

It's overpayment.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Wow... That Haula trade shows how far off the mark the price was for our Miller trade...

 

[DonnyNucker]

Wow... That Haula trade shows how far off the mark the price was for our Miller trade...

Haula and Miller have little in common

 

[Canucks1096]

Considering the team was against the cap, the above is pretty irrelevant.

It's overpayment.

Hawks and Wash was against the cap as well. Hawks manage to get two 2nds for a middle 6 forward in Shaw

Fyi I am not even a Benning fan, for me I am kind neutral. The thing for me is I always call things the way I see regardless for what player we are talking about.

I am a big Bure fan. I am not going to debate and say he is better Than Ovechkin and Malkin.

I did confirm in a lot lot past posts ab out all the stupid trades/signing he did

 

[Canucks1096]

Wow... That Haula trade shows how far off the mark the price was for our Miller trade...

I am actually very surprise you wrote this. You are usually one of the more knowledgeable ones on this forum. But Haula and Miller are not comparable at all. Also Haula missed almost the entire year last year as well.

 

[RobertKron]

If you ask yourself what is a 26 year old 55 to 60 point winger with a good contract worth? Then compare it to what the Canucks got and ask yourself realisticly where would that 1st round pick be. Then you realized he didn't get really get killed.

Let me help you

Let's say the pick ends up being the 15th pick and a 3rd round pick


Considering the fact, Hawks got two 2nds for salary dump in Shaw and Wash got a 2nd and a 3rd for Johanssen. Miller is better than both of them so he should get more.

Then you realized you are right Canucks1096. He didn't really killed in this trade, maybe a slight overpayment.

This is like buying a car at full price and telling yourself you did really well at haggling because it’s a nice car.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I am actually very surprise you wrote this. You are usually one of the more knowledgeable ones on this forum. But Haula and Miller are not comparable at all. Also Haula missed almost the entire year last year as well.

You trying to tell me you wouldnt rather have Haula at the price Carolina got him than Miller at the price we got him at?

 

[Disappointed EP40]

I really don't know what part you are not getting. So what Tampa got what they wanted. It doesn't mean they didn't negotiate.

Tampa said I want 1st and a 3rd pick
JB could said I will give you two seconds instead
Tampa said No, I want 1st and a 3rd.
JB get back to them at the draft and say deal.

This scenario they didn't haggle for days or weeks. It doesn't mean for sure he didn't Negotiate.

Do we know if this scenario happens? We don't so you can't just say assume he didn't Negotiate. That is your assumption from your part.

I honestly think you know I am right ON that part but of course we been debating for some time now. You will look like a fool if you admit you are wrong. Usually HF users don't admit they are wrong.

So answer the question on the 1st round pick. If there are no negotiating involve. Are you telling me that Tampa came up with the 1st round conditions that benefits Van and said 2020 is way better draft and we have no chance to get a 2020 lottery pick? Did Tampa say this? Yes or No? The answer is No, that proves JB did negotiate

The conditions clearly favors Van so Tampa came up with this conditions. Nonsense.

Yikes. You are arguing whether they had a back and forth about the trade. (Of course they did -- Do you think Tampa asked for Marek Mazanec?? We had to lose a contract)

He is arguing Benning gave Tampa what they wanted in the trade. They asked for a 1st and 3rd, and JB gave it to them. They ironed out the details.

 

[Canucks1096]

This is like buying a car at full price and telling yourself you did really well at haggling because it’s a nice car.

You do realize the original debate wasn't about If JB was good at Haggling. If was about if he haggle or not. The other user stating he didn't try haggle at all. I disagree with that

 

[Canucks1096]

Yikes. You are arguing whether they had a back and forth about the trade. (Of course they did -- Do you think Tampa asked for Marek Mazanec?? We had to lose a contract)

He is arguing Benning gave Tampa what they wanted in the trade. They asked for a 1st and 3rd, and JB gave it to them. They ironed out the details.

Sorry this part of the debate, I am just going to reply to the orginal user. It gets too confusing when you had such a long debate with someone. Then you have other posterd that didn't read entire post joined in and don't understand completely where the debating going. Me, having clarify myself again. Don't want to do that.

 

[Canucks1096]

You trying to tell me you wouldnt rather have Haula at the price Carolina got him than Miller at the price we got him at?

I rather have Miller at the price we got him for.

1 Haula only has a year left on his contract
2 coming off a major injury
3 he is a center, canucks need help on the bottom 6 as well by wing is a bigger issue
4 Miller is a more proven top 6 scorer. Haula has just 1 good season, not sure if he can repeat that.

Overall Miller is a legit top 6 winger, he is a sure thing. Haula has more question mark.

Miller failing in Van, chances are slim to none

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I rather have Miller at the price we got him for.

1 Haula only has a year left on his contract
2 coming off a major injury
3 he is a center, canucks need help on the bottom 6 as well by wing is a bigger issue
4 Miller is a more proven top 6 scorer. Haula has just 1 good season, not sure if he can repeat that.

Overall Miller is a legit top 6 winger, he is a sure thing. Haula has more question mark.

Miller failing in Van, chances are slim to none

But Haula was basically free.

Miller, even if he is as good as we expect him to be, is still an overpayment that maybe gives us 4 points more in the standings next year.

Guess we just disagree big time on where the Canucks stand as a team.

I am actually very surprise you wrote this. You are usually one of the more knowledgeable ones on this forum. But Haula and Miller are not comparable at all. Also Haula missed almost the entire year last year as well.

I dont know if you were being facetious with this but if not, thank you.

Lately Ive been far more piss & vinegar than I would like to with how things turned out so far this summer.

 

[Canucks1096]

Some facts about Miller two 50 plus point seasons

2017 Miller played with Grabner and Hayes the most

2018 Miller played with Zuccarello and Desharnais the most ( important note, played with Stamkos last quarter but still was on pace for 50 plus points before trade)

50 plus points without any legit 1st line talent as linemates is quite impressive. All this talk he is complimentary player. Doesn't seem like Complimentary to me.

 

[F A N]

Miller is a good hockey player. I don't think this should be a question at all. The legitimate questions are the merits of what was offered for him, the timing of the deal, and whether Miller is worth is contract. That's pretty much it.

50 plus points without any legit 1st line talent as linemates is quite impressive. All this talk he is complimentary player. Doesn't seem like Complimentary to me.

You know, a lot of posters seem to take a negative view of "complimentary players." To me, a complimentary player simply means a player who can't anchor his own line / you can't build a line around. JT Miller isn't an elite level player on the wing like Ovechkin or Panarin. You shouldn't go looking to build a line around him. But he does drive offense. Harman Dayal has an article out on the Athletic today and while he questions the price paid he has glowing reviews of Miller as a player. In summary, according to Daval, the stats show that Miller is "crafty and skilled when it comes to creating scoring chances for his linemates," Miller was "12th among NHL forwards in winning offensive zone puck battles," and Stamkos was better at driving offense with Miller than without. So from an "advanced stats" point of view, JT Miller isn't a "complimentary player" at all.

 

[The Pucks]

I think this thread should be brought back up around Christmas time, I suspect when Miller is clicking with Pettersson or Horvat and is 2nd/3rd in team scoring, some feelings may have changed.

 

[VancouverJagger]

I think this thread should be brought back up around Christmas time, I suspect when Miller is clicking with Pettersson or Horvat and is 2nd/3rd in team scoring, some feelings may have changed.

Yeah I agree - right now everyone is pissed (I'm also in the mildly outraged camp as I think Benning did a poor job yet again of negotiating here) however let's hope that Miller gets off to a decent start and doesn't become our next whipping boy.

I think there's actually a solid chance this trade will end up working ok for us - it's just the downside that has a lot of people (myself included) up in arms.......

 

[RobertKron]

You do realize the original debate wasn't about If JB was good at Haggling. If was about if he haggle or not. The other user stating he didn't try haggle at all. I disagree with that

Yes, and then I said that he did haggle, but got killed and you decided to talk about how he got a really good car, so the retail price is actually really fair.

 

[The Pucks]

Yeah I agree - right now everyone is pissed (I'm also in the mildly outraged camp as I think Benning did a poor job yet again of negotiating here) however let's hope that Miller gets off to a decent start and doesn't become our next whipping boy.

I think there's actually a solid chance this trade will end up working ok for us - it's just the downside that has a lot of people (myself included) up in arms.......

The thing that is different with this deal than the salary dump deal is Miller is 26 and either in or headed into his prime. Marleau was a dump, PK is 30 and has a 9 million cap hit. Miller is 26 and 5.25, a reasonable salary for what he has done and has 4 years to build on it.

What people forget is Vancouver was not the only team Tampa had to move salary to. They had a plethora of players they could have moved out, and many teams would be interested in many of those players. Benning decieded that Miller was a good fit, and I agree with him. He wasnt looking for table scraps, he was looking for a long term fit for this roster. I believe Miller is a good long term fit.

I hate giving up a 1st rounder like everyone else, and none of us were in on negotiations, but Benning wanted him, now lets let this play out before we die of stress heart attacks.