What can we do to get Keefe fired.

[ULF_55]

I dont totally disagree with you but teams have won with mediocre goaltending before. No teams have won with nobody scoring. I think the only real difference between the leafs in the regular season and playoffs is that their soft, overpaid core mostly disappears when the playoffs come around. They never have great D or goaltending but it’s enough to be a top team when they’re scoring. I don’t think they’re a cup contender as is but they should be able to win a playoff series more than once.

The other reason I pick on the core 4 is their contracts. They could have a better blueline or a better goaltending situation if they had money to spend. That’s why I criticize the playoff performances of their highly paid core - they need to be better to make up for the shortcomings elsewhere because of the cap.

I hope they retain Nylander over Marner tbh. Sounds like Marner is gonna want 13-14m and they just can’t afford that. They have enough soft, non physical players already and enough cap money spent up front.

Matthews
Tavares
marner
Rielly

That's their core 4.

Yes, they should have more of the Rielly, Nylander contracts and less of the double digit contracts.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Keefe's time could very well be up here, but for the most part the issues were seeing aren't coaching related. You have individual players underperforming in key situations with strong opportunities created for them. It's a lot of bad individual execution and limited abilities by the personnel, part of that's injuries, part of it is just surprisingly poor performances

Go watch the shorthanded goal last night and Nylander backtracking the puck carrier while they were on a 2 on 1. That is coaching as we’ve done that all year.

No one in the history of the game back tracks the puck carrier on a 2 on 1 against but we do? f***ing galaxy brain coaching. I’ve seen us do it all season it is 100% a conscious effort to do it wrong because we think we’re smarter than 100 years of hockey history.

 

[Gallagbi]

Go watch the shorthanded goal last night and Nylander backtracking the puck carrier while they were on a 2 on 1. That is coaching as we’ve done that all year.

No one in the history of the game back tracks the puck carrier on a 2 on 1 against but we do? f***ing galaxy brain coaching. I’ve seen us do it all season it is 100% a conscious effort to do it wrong because we think we’re smarter than 100 years of hockey history.

The games slowly moved to puck pressure on the carrier forcing a play rather than goalie takes the man. It's been pretty noticeable in league-wide 2on1 play for some time, even if last night's was a little more obvious because Willy/Rielly don't recognize it's more of a 2on2 and poorly execute getting in the lanes.

I notice it a lot more from the D play than the back checker league wide. It's not a let the goalie have the shot mentality anymore.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

The games slowly moved to puck pressure on the carrier forcing a play rather than goalie takes the man. It's been pretty noticeable in league-wide 2on1 play for some time, even if last night's was a little more obvious because Willy/Rielly don't recognize it's more of a 2on2.

I notice it a lot more from the D play than the back checker league wide. It's not a let the goalie have the shot mentality anymore.

I’ll take your word for it. I watch Flames second because my friends are fans and I’ve never seen them do that. And I’ve never seen our Leafs play it that way until this season.

 

[Stephen]

Keefe's time could very well be up here, but for the most part the issues were seeing aren't coaching related. You have individual players underperforming in key situations with strong opportunities created for them. It's a lot of bad individual execution and limited abilities by the personnel, part of that's injuries, part of it is just surprisingly poor performances

But wouldn't you say there's been an issue with managing the momentum of a 60 minute game, to put it in the most generic terms?

The Leafs either come out ready to play and then sag, or they might no show completely only to turn on the turbo engine. The lack of motivation to just come out and stomp a non playoff team feels non existent and has emerged as a real pattern on the schedule.

One of the biggest issues with the team is their transition game is hurt by the the blueline. Rielly is the only one who can do it all. Benoit and Lagesson are good in their roles and have played survival mode for the Leafs as well as you'd hope, but they don't move the puck north very well. Brodie is a puck moving tire fire this year. McCabe is decent but probably more tunnel vision when it comes to play through the neutral zone, you take whatever you can. Liljegren is so so. Has the skills to be a better puckmover with more offensive impact but just seems kind of timid and runs out of space out there. Timmins is awful on defense but has surprisingly pinpoint effective offense from time to time. Gio is obviously long in the tooth but is a good example of what we need but much younger and more impactful. You can see why they thought a Klingberg type player would have made a difference.

 

[leafers]

I imagine how those Devon Toews comments about teammates who think they're playing hard but have no clue would go over in the Leaf room.

They probably wouldn’t invite him to their pajama parties.

 

[Gallagbi]

But wouldn't you say there's been an issue with managing the momentum of a 60 minute game, to put it in the most generic terms?

The Leafs either come out ready to play and then sag, or they might no show completely only to turn on the turbo engine. The lack of motivation to just come out and stomp a non playoff team feels non existent and has emerged as a real pattern on the schedule.

It's the NHL, teams rarely dominate for a full 60 minute. Our expectations as far are always sky high and rarely match reality across the league. This season has been our worst in some time from an on ice play perspective, but we've usually been a team that closes out games well with the ability to come back. It's why we've been such a successful regular season team. Even in playoffs we've been pretty steady with effort and play, if anything playoffs have been overly regimented and not free flowing enough.

One of the biggest issues with the team is their transition game is hurt by the the blueline. Rielly is the only one who can do it all. Benoit and Lagesson are good in their roles and have played survival mode for the Leafs as well as you'd hope, but they don't move the puck north very well. Brodie is a puck moving tire fire this year. McCabe is decent but probably more tunnel vision when it comes to play through the neutral zone, you take whatever you can. Liljegren is so so. Has the skills to be a better puckmover with more offensive impact but just seems kind of timid and runs out of space out there. Timmins is awful on defense but has surprisingly pinpoint effective offense from time to time. Gio is obviously long in the tooth but is a good example of what we need but much younger and more impactful. You can see why they thought a Klingberg type player would have made a difference.

Lots of ways to transition. The D is a big one, but we're noticeable poor on the wings defensively right now, which doesn't help. Add in Kampf's play falling off a cliff and we've had a lot of trouble just maintaining quality play this season compared to years past. This is the worst I've seen it since the final Babcock days, and that was a lot more obvious in deployment issues.

I’ll take your word for it. I watch Flames second because my friends are fans and I’ve never seen them do that. And I’ve never seen our Leafs play it that way until this season.

Watch for a lengthy 2on1. Traditional hockey logic would have the D cheating pass and letting the goalie make the save. Now you'll see the D cheating shooter to force a pass. Time, space and variables are more of a focus now than before.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Watch for a lengthy 2on1. Traditional hockey logic would have the D cheating pass and letting the goalie make the save. Now you'll see the D cheating shooter to force a pass. Time, space and variables are more of a focus now than before.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Nylander was not the D on that play, he was backtracking. Rielly was the D. Nylander was coming hard on the back check behind the 2 on 1 and could've easily made it back to cover the pass which has been how a back checker comes back forever. But this year the player on the back check is instructed to attack the puck carrier while the Dman playing the 2 on 1 covers the pass (which he should always do until the back checker has it covered and then swap to attack the puck carrier).

 

[weems]

But wouldn't you say there's been an issue with managing the momentum of a 60 minute game, to put it in the most generic terms?

The Leafs either come out ready to play and then sag, or they might no show completely only to turn on the turbo engine. The lack of motivation to just come out and stomp a non playoff team feels non existent and has emerged as a real pattern on the schedule.

One of the biggest issues with the team is their transition game is hurt by the the blueline. Rielly is the only one who can do it all. Benoit and Lagesson are good in their roles and have played survival mode for the Leafs as well as you'd hope, but they don't move the puck north very well. Brodie is a puck moving tire fire this year. McCabe is decent but probably more tunnel vision when it comes to play through the neutral zone, you take whatever you can. Liljegren is so so. Has the skills to be a better puckmover with more offensive impact but just seems kind of timid and runs out of space out there. Timmins is awful on defense but has surprisingly pinpoint effective offense from time to time. Gio is obviously long in the tooth but is a good example of what we need but much younger and more impactful. You can see why they thought a Klingberg type player would have made a difference.

They should get the people who do the micro stats counting to come up with a intensity per 60 stat.

I don't think we'd rank very high.

This is sometimes the drawback of having insanely talented cores in that their intensity and focus can wane throughout games because they think they can just turn it back on whenever while less skilled teams not so much.

 

[Gallagbi]

I think you're misunderstanding me. Nylander was not the D on that play, he was backtracking. Rielly was the D. Nylander was coming hard on the back check behind the 2 on 1 and could've easily made it back to cover the pass which has been how a back checker comes back forever. But this year the player on the back check is instructed to attack the puck carrier while the Dman playing the 2 on 1 covers the pass (which he should always do until the back checker has it covered and then swap to attack the puck carrier).

I understand what you're saying. I'm explaining the progression of how and why were seeing that, and how the D play was the first step, now the back pressure is adding more of a layer to it.

Even still it's a misread by Mo and Nylander with poorly executed pressure and poorly managed gap on Mo's end

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Matthews
Tavares
marner
Rielly

That's their core 4.

Yes, they should have more of the Rielly, Nylander contracts and less of the double digit contracts.

Yeah, if we're talking about core 4 players leaving money on the table, as of right now Nylander shouldn't be in that conversation. How much cheaper can you realistically get a ppg forward on a post ELC deal? Especially 1 that will probably put up 90-110 points?

 

[notDatsyuk]

What makes him a bad coach? He has the best record of any active tenures for coaches. He has some flaws, but has managed to have the team get some pretty consistent results and won us a playoff series.

Only thing anyone can say is playoff series wins which is a core issue not a Keefe one.

In the last seven years, only LA and Minnesota have not won a playoff series.

Keefe and Dubas were gifted with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly, and have done nothing with it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Go watch the shorthanded goal last night and Nylander backtracking the puck carrier while they were on a 2 on 1. That is coaching as we’ve done that all year.

No one in the history of the game back tracks the puck carrier on a 2 on 1 against but we do? f***ing galaxy brain coaching. I’ve seen us do it all season it is 100% a conscious effort to do it wrong because we think we’re smarter than 100 years of hockey history.

I don't think you should blame that particular play on the coach - Rielly should have played the 2-on-1 better, and Nylander and Rielly failed to communicate.

Much worse was the next goal, where Marner didn't even bother trying to keep up with his man, who scored.

 

[arso40]

I understand what you're saying. I'm explaining the progression of how and why were seeing that, and how the D play was the first step, now the back pressure is adding more of a layer to it.

Even still it's a misread by Mo and Nylander with poorly executed pressure and poorly managed gap on Mo's end

It looks like Willy wanted mo to take the pass away so he could get the pucc carrier but you could see the indecisiveness by Willy cause rielly wasn’t definitively taking one of the options away

 

[ACC1224]

We had a President brought in who was in over his head bring in a GM that was in over his head, bring in a coach who was in over his head.
This team is a result of all this dysfunction.
One loser was removed, they just need to take the rest of the garbage out.

Go Leafs Go!

 

[hotpaws]

We had a President brought in who was in over his head bring in a GM that was in over his head, bring in a coach who was in over his head.
This team is a result of all this dysfunction.
One loser was removed, they just need to take the rest of the garbage out.

Go Leafs Go!

maybe despite every advantage they still haven't failed enough tests yet

 

[RunItBackAgain]

It looks like Willy wanted mo to take the pass away so he could get the pucc carrier but you could see the indecisiveness by Willy cause rielly wasn’t definitively taking one of the options away

Yes, according to the system the coaches want them to play, Rielly should have taken the pass away and let Willy track back on the carrier. But we could see the end result was that Willy could've taken the pass but because of the system that was never his man and they didn't adapt.

 

[arso40]

And you can see there still not comfortable with it to where it’s second nature the indecisiveness is apparent why did they change the defensive systems anyway they weren’t the problem the personnel was

 

[Niagara Bill]

I am not a real fan of Keefe, BUT, there is another consistent theme.
Year after year a GM has loaded up the bottom 6 plus 2 with rentals. We have not seen any success (unless you consider 1 round a success). The common denominators are Keefe and the core. Is this core so selfish, so isolated, so aloof that nobody, not Reaves, Domi, O'Reilly, Schenn, etc etc can influence them, can engage them. Are they so distant that nobody wants to.
Maybe Keefe is a saint.

 

[JKG33]

In the last seven years, only LA and Minnesota have not won a playoff series.

Keefe and Dubas were gifted with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly, and have done nothing with it.

This. And not only have they done f*** all after being gifted these players, I'd argue the amateur hour shit show under Dubas and Keefe made some of the players worse.

What if Matthews and Nylander got to learn under Maurice in Winnipeg? Marner to Carolina with Rod?

Their bank accounts wouldn't be as inflated, but they'd be much more complete players. Dubas and Keefe have taken a very talented group, and coddled them to get a result that's worse than the sum of its parts.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

This. And not only have they done f*** all after being gifted these players, I'd argue the amateur hour shit show under Dubas and Keefe made some of the players worse.

What if Matthews and Nylander got to learn under Maurice in Winnipeg? Marner to Carolina with Rod?

Their bank accounts wouldn't be as inflated, but they'd be much more complete players. Dubas and Keefe have taken a very talented group, and coddled them to get a result that's worse than the sum of its parts.

Coddled is the perfect word to describe this. But I'd include Shanny in this too.

 

[pcruz]

Go watch the shorthanded goal last night and Nylander backtracking the puck carrier while they were on a 2 on 1. That is coaching as we’ve done that all year.

No one in the history of the game back tracks the puck carrier on a 2 on 1 against but we do? f***ing galaxy brain coaching. I’ve seen us do it all season it is 100% a conscious effort to do it wrong because we think we’re smarter than 100 years of hockey history.

It's not coaching.

It's braindead player who doesn't understand the basic fundamentals of the sport.

You always convert a 2 on 1 situation into a 2 on 2.

100% of the time, you do this.

It's is never, ever, advisable to allow an open player in front of your net. EVER.

 

[notbias]

This. And not only have they done f*** all after being gifted these players, I'd argue the amateur hour shit show under Dubas and Keefe made some of the players worse.

What if Matthews and Nylander got to learn under Maurice in Winnipeg? Marner to Carolina with Rod?

Their bank accounts wouldn't be as inflated, but they'd be much more complete players. Dubas and Keefe have taken a very talented group, and coddled them to get a result that's worse than the sum of its parts.

Maurice is now who we want as a coach... gross.

These players learned in the NHL under Babcock, not Keefe.

The majority of their ELCs were under Babcock but Keefe inflated their salaries?

 

[ULF_55]

I am not a real fan of Keefe, BUT, there is another consistent theme.
Year after year a GM has loaded up the bottom 6 plus 2 with rentals. We have not seen any success (unless you consider 1 round a success). The common denominators are Keefe and the core. Is this core so selfish, so isolated, so aloof that nobody, not Reaves, Domi, O'Reilly, Schenn, etc etc can influence them, can engage them. Are they so distant that nobody wants to.
Maybe Keefe is a saint.

I found this interesting.

List all Leafs players who have more 15 or more points total in the playoffs since 2016-2017 season.

10 points or more points

22 players at 5 or more

The top 4/5 players, have had little support.

 

[ToneDog]

I found this interesting.

List all Leafs players who have more 15 or more points total in the playoffs since 2016-2017 season.

View attachment 791998

10 points or more points

View attachment 791999

22 players at 5 or more

The top 4/5 players, have had little support.

Is that because you can't get a good enough supporting cast because they are chewing up half the cap space or you are turning over the supporting cast yearly because they are chewing up half the cap?

If you want and get all the money, be prepared to deliver. They have not for what they have been paid. There is no defending the so called Big 4 for their playoff performance. They should look to Rielly for guidance.