We didn’t know what we had

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Here is a list of the moves by Lou that set us back.
1. Disaster 2016-2017 drafts.
2. 2nds for 4th line centres
3. Zaitsev contract
4. Marleau contract which cost us a 1st
5. Let Babcock run free and embarass a young player
licensed-image.jpeg.jpg

This image sums up Lou's time here
 
Here is a list of the moves by Lou that set us back.
1. Disaster 2016-2017 drafts.
2. 2nds for 4th line centres
3. Zaitsev contract
4. Marleau contract which cost us a 1st
5. Let Babcock run free and embarass a young playerView attachment 446524
This image sums up Lou's time here

Okay now do Dubas.

Ohhhh wait. He’s been flawless and can do no wrong right?
 
Here is a list of the moves by Lou that set us back.
1. Disaster 2016-2017 drafts.
2. 2nds for 4th line centres
3. Zaitsev contract
4. Marleau contract which cost us a 1st
5. Let Babcock run free and embarass a young player

Let me extrapolate a bit on your 5 points.

1. Yes..Lou had shitty drafts...no defending them.

2. Brian Boyle was pretty good for us and Plekanic was useful as well compared to Foligno (and cost way less)

3. When he signed the deal it was with the knowledge that if he went back to the KHL it would disappear off our books. Bad thinking there and the threat of him leaving that summer is why he gave him that much...stupid deal.

4. Marleau was pretty much all Babs...he wanted him from way back. They assumed in his last year of the deal that it wouldn't matter taking up $6m because we did not have any UFA's to sign for year 3 ...not knowing Dubas would sign Tavares. Had he not signed JT...it wouldn't have mattered when the kids came up for contracts.

5. Babs doing what he did (and probably a lot more than we know of) is not on Lou, Babs was here already..Shanny hired him to that almost fire-prevention deal of $8m yr. Should he have been fired over it and explain to the board how they have to pay out $50M to Babs to not coach? I doubt it.
 
I am beginning to wonder if the Dubas defenders are just trolling us at this point.
Like Shanahan, their fates are tied to Dubas being successful, like I previously posted, their opinions haven’t and won’t age well. With each failure the excuses multiply, before long it will be Harold Ballard’s fault......
 
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Would that really be a bad thing?

Remind me who’s in the final 4 again and who’s been eliminated in the first round 5 straight years?

The only reason the Isles are successful is that they have a very defensively organized team with good goaltending, defense, and defensive forwards. Over the years the Isles haven't hit on many offensive superstars but they've managed to find guys who can be serviceable in the top 6. They have however drafted a ton of players who are good high energy/ effort bottom 6 guys. Add that in with a defensive first system of Barry Trotz and that's a recipe for success. The biggest thing Lou did for the Isles was to lose JT to free agency because that forced that whole franchise to change the way they played. Mat Barzal as great of a player as he is hasn't been anywhere near as dominant as an offensive player since his rookie year when he was getting sheltered minutes thanks to JT.

If Lou had stayed with this team, we wouldn't be a hell of a lot better because a ton of our players are offensively gifted and our team is built on speed and skill. Lou made us big and slower by acquiring the likes of Matt Martin and not surrounding the team with much else. And when push came to shove and the chips were down, Babs either scratched Martin or just flat out refused to play him. Our drafting record under Lou was also absolutely atrocious. We went after a ton of big-bodied players in hopes of landing a few guys that would provide much-needed physical edge and feistiness because we lacked that as a team but every single one of his draft picks with that style of game or big size fell on their faces.

If there's one thing the Leafs have failed at and my biggest criticism of Dubas would be that they are succumbing to media/ fan pressure and trying to move away from their team identity. Since the days of Lou, we were a skilled and speed team who always wasted a few roster spots on grit, and that grit never actually played for us because one or 2 guys can't change the identity and the style of game for a team. Isles are gritty and tough to play because that's their team identity, and every player outside of maybe Barzal, Bailey, and Lee has that in their DNA. So, for us to inject a few select tough guys in hopes of becoming a better-rounded team, we are literally just diluting the one major strength we have. And contrary to popular belief, TB has proved that skill plays out, year after year is at or near the top and last year finally breaking through to win the cup.

I understand Leafs nation is filled with toxic ass people who will dig their heads out of their asses as soon as something negative happens. But as usual, the delusion is strong and the grass isn't greener on the other side because clearly, this team has gone as far as they did with Lou. Just because he's having success with a team that has a better coach and established team identity, doesn't mean he would've magically given that to this team over a span of a few years. If Trotz wasn't the coach of the Islander, I'm quite confident they wouldn't have nearly as much success as they've enjoyed. Not to mention that the team is already in cap hell with their big kids resigning within a season or two. They were already forced to deal a high-quality top 2/4 dman in Toews this past offseason because of Lou's shit cap management. I don't expect things to get too rosy.
 
The only reason the Isles are successful is that they have a very defensively organized team with good goaltending, defense, and defensive forwards. Over the years the Isles haven't hit on many offensive superstars but they've managed to find guys who can be serviceable in the top 6. They have however drafted a ton of players who are good high energy/ effort bottom 6 guys. Add that in with a defensive first system of Barry Trotz and that's a recipe for success. The biggest thing Lou did for the Isles was to lose JT to free agency because that forced that whole franchise to change the way they played. Mat Barzal as great of a player as he is hasn't been anywhere near as dominant as an offensive player since his rookie year when he was getting sheltered minutes thanks to JT.

If Lou had stayed with this team, we wouldn't be a hell of a lot better because a ton of our players are offensively gifted and our team is built on speed and skill. Lou made us big and slower by acquiring the likes of Matt Martin and not surrounding the team with much else. And when push came to shove and the chips were down, Babs either scratched Martin or just flat out refused to play him. Our drafting record under Lou was also absolutely atrocious. We went after a ton of big-bodied players in hopes of landing a few guys that would provide much-needed physical edge and feistiness because we lacked that as a team but every single one of his draft picks with that style of game or big size fell on their faces.

If there's one thing the Leafs have failed at and my biggest criticism of Dubas would be that they are succumbing to media/ fan pressure and trying to move away from their team identity. Since the days of Lou, we were a skilled and speed team who always wasted a few roster spots on grit, and that grit never actually played for us because one or 2 guys can't change the identity and the style of game for a team. Isles are gritty and tough to play because that's their team identity, and every player outside of maybe Barzal, Bailey, and Lee has that in their DNA. So, for us to inject a few select tough guys in hopes of becoming a better-rounded team, we are literally just diluting the one major strength we have. And contrary to popular belief, TB has proved that skill plays out, year after year is at or near the top and last year finally breaking through to win the cup.

I understand Leafs nation is filled with toxic ass people who will dig their heads out of their asses as soon as something negative happens. But as usual, the delusion is strong and the grass isn't greener on the other side because clearly, this team has gone as far as they did with Lou. Just because he's having success with a team that has a better coach and established team identity, doesn't mean he would've magically given that to this team over a span of a few years. If Trotz wasn't the coach of the Islander, I'm quite confident they wouldn't have nearly as much success as they've enjoyed. Not to mention that the team is already in cap hell with their big kids resigning within a season or two. They were already forced to deal a high-quality top 2/4 dman in Toews this past offseason because of Lou's shit cap management. I don't expect things to get too rosy.
The Islanders gained Lou and lost Tavares and have had their two best seasons in recent franchise history.

We lost Lou and gained Tavares and have had two of our most pathetic post season exits in recent franchise history.

These are facts.

You say that the Islanders have a better coach, and I would agree with that. But we had a Hall of Fame coach too and we let Dubas fry him and replace him with a kid who had zero NHL experience.

You say the Islanders have a more well-rounded him, and yes I agree, but it's impossible to have a more well-rounded team when 4 finesse forwards are taking up half your cap. Who's fault is that? It's not Lou's, it's Dubas and Shanny's fault. They opened the vault for JT and then let the young core take them to the cleaners. Meanwhile, Lou got Barzal to agree to a $7 mil cap hit -- a hair higher than Nylander's.

Seeing the reality of how it's playing out for both franchises, there's no verbal gymnastics that can justify the opinion that we wouldn't be more successful right now if Lou was in charge and not Shanny/Dubas.
 
Okay now do Dubas.

Ohhhh wait. He’s been flawless and can do no wrong right?
The worst thing Dubas has done is trade a 1st for Foligno in a year where the Leafs were unanimously favoured to go to at least the conf finals. A year where a fluke injury took out JT (one of the 10+ mil contracts) and even then we still managed to go to 3-1 before the team inexplicably collapsed including 2 OT losses where the team was fully in control of the games.

The GMs job is to reward the team when they do well and put them in the best possible situation to win. Dubas goofed it by trading for Foligno instead of Hall. The other factors that really hurt us were the Muzzin injury in game 5 and Zach Hyman (who was an absolute beast pre-injury) coming back to his stone hands Hyman form.

While some things are not defensible, I don't think any GM would foresee the injuries or the poor play of arguably their most consistent overall player.

On the other hand. Dubas managed to dump Marleau and pay a hefty price but his draft record has been very impressive that even though we are now missing 2 1st round picks, we still have a top 5 prospect pool and the majority of these kids were drafted in the 3rd round or later. He has a very good eye for talent whether it's through the draft or even pursuing international free agents. He's managed to recruit some pretty good names, even though these guys haven't all panned out. But he still lives up to his words and gives his players a chance to play (like trading them to crappier teams, Lehtonen/ Barabanov etc.).

The only other negative I can see that people bitch about is the big contracts but the reality is. Willy is now arguably underpaid or at worst on a team-friendly deal. Auston and Mitch both got paid but both are making market value. Neither of them took a discount and I don't think you can blame them or the team. Auston's been a PPG player since his sophomore season with a 40 G rookie campaign Marner turned in a 90+ point season in his 3rd year in the league and the last year of his ELC. You're not going to get a player on a discount at that production. And quite frankly, outside of the Crosby/ McDavid/ Ovi types, these guys don't have any other players with similar comparisons in their D+3/4 seasons and last years of their ELCs with good scoring pedigree. Even a guy like Draisaitl who people talk about being underpaid, took an 8 million dollar deal while putting up 70 points even though he had a ton of ice time with McDavid but a good yet nowhere near comparable ELC to either Matthews/ Marner. JT was a big-ticket signing and IMO overpaid by at least a mil or two. But that's the price you pay for going after a 1C in the UFA market in his prime.

I don't think anyone is singing Dubas's praise blindly. He's definitely made a few mistakes but the good thing about him is that he's done equally as many good things to help the team out in the long run. For every bad trade he makes, he's bailed himself out by recouping draft picks (like getting Hallander + Amirov) or drafting extremely well ensuring that the Leafs will always have a solid supply of quality ELC players coming up at least throughout the next few years where we don't have a ton of cap space.

Another thing that they've done well is that they've front-loaded every contract signed for every player with heavy signing bonus money and each of JT, Marner, Matthews and Willy are all going to be $6 mil/ year players in real money starting July 2nd of this season. If we really had to do it, we can sell off these guys and recoup a ton of assets. Even the Kerfoot/ Muzz/ Brodie deals have been well structured.

Dubas also had the foresight to find us a cheap goalie in Campbell while he was a relatively unknown asset around the league and whether you like it or not, he was one of the most impactful players on this team this year and will be our #1 going into the next few years. Yes, there are doubts but so far he's been steady. And yes, Dubas has vastly f***ed up covering his ass by not appropriately getting a backup like 2 years ago when we had to run Garrett Sparks, but he learned his lesson this year and our backups were massive and even though Fred was a major let down, we still comfortably sat atop the divison.
 
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The Islanders gained Lou and lost Tavares and have had their two best seasons in recent franchise history.

We lost Lou and gained Tavares and have had two of our most pathetic post season exits in recent franchise history.

These are facts.

You say that the Islanders have a better coach, and I would agree with that. But we had a Hall of Fame coach too and we let Dubas fry him and replace him with a kid who had zero NHL experience.

You say the Islanders have a more well-rounded him, and yes I agree, but it's impossible to have a more well-rounded team when 4 finesse forwards are taking up half your cap. Who's fault is that? It's not Lou's, it's Dubas and Shanny's fault. They opened the vault for JT and then let the young core take them to the cleaners. Meanwhile, Lou got Barzal to agree to a $7 mil cap hit -- a hair higher than Nylander's.

Seeing the reality of how it's playing out for both franchises, there's no verbal gymnastics that can justify the opinion that we wouldn't be more successful right now if Lou was in charge and not Shanny/Dubas.

For 3 years. It's a bridge deal. Let's not act like Barzal is taking a sweetheart deal here. And he had to take the $7 mil bridge because the team was in cap troubles. :thumbu:

Leafs wouldn't be any better off with Lou. We simply don't have the players or playing style to grind it in the playoffs. Babs tried to turn our skilled players to play a grinder game and failed miserably.

Also, the Leafs under Dubas this year were on pace for one of the best regular-season records as a team. But playoff success eludes them. I don't think you can put the blame fully on the GM there. If you could, then Lou doesn't get a pass for f***ing handing out horrible deals to Martin, Zaitsev, Marleau. All of whom got us a combined 0 playoff series wins in 3 seasons under Lou.

Lou definitely gets credit for bringing in the vets on the Island but the quality of vets he's brought over have been a hell of a lot better than what he got here.
 
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The only reason the Isles are successful is that they have a very defensively organized team with good goaltending, defense, and defensive forwards. Over the years the Isles haven't hit on many offensive superstars but they've managed to find guys who can be serviceable in the top 6. They have however drafted a ton of players who are good high energy/ effort bottom 6 guys. Add that in with a defensive first system of Barry Trotz and that's a recipe for success. The biggest thing Lou did for the Isles was to lose JT to free agency because that forced that whole franchise to change the way they played. Mat Barzal as great of a player as he is hasn't been anywhere near as dominant as an offensive player since his rookie year when he was getting sheltered minutes thanks to JT.

If Lou had stayed with this team, we wouldn't be a hell of a lot better because a ton of our players are offensively gifted and our team is built on speed and skill. Lou made us big and slower by acquiring the likes of Matt Martin and not surrounding the team with much else. And when push came to shove and the chips were down, Babs either scratched Martin or just flat out refused to play him. Our drafting record under Lou was also absolutely atrocious. We went after a ton of big-bodied players in hopes of landing a few guys that would provide much-needed physical edge and feistiness because we lacked that as a team but every single one of his draft picks with that style of game or big size fell on their faces.

If there's one thing the Leafs have failed at and my biggest criticism of Dubas would be that they are succumbing to media/ fan pressure and trying to move away from their team identity. Since the days of Lou, we were a skilled and speed team who always wasted a few roster spots on grit, and that grit never actually played for us because one or 2 guys can't change the identity and the style of game for a team. Isles are gritty and tough to play because that's their team identity, and every player outside of maybe Barzal, Bailey, and Lee has that in their DNA. So, for us to inject a few select tough guys in hopes of becoming a better-rounded team, we are literally just diluting the one major strength we have. And contrary to popular belief, TB has proved that skill plays out, year after year is at or near the top and last year finally breaking through to win the cup.

I understand Leafs nation is filled with toxic ass people who will dig their heads out of their asses as soon as something negative happens. But as usual, the delusion is strong and the grass isn't greener on the other side because clearly, this team has gone as far as they did with Lou. Just because he's having success with a team that has a better coach and established team identity, doesn't mean he would've magically given that to this team over a span of a few years. If Trotz wasn't the coach of the Islander, I'm quite confident they wouldn't have nearly as much success as they've enjoyed. Not to mention that the team is already in cap hell with their big kids resigning within a season or two. They were already forced to deal a high-quality top 2/4 dman in Toews this past offseason because of Lou's shit cap management. I don't expect things to get too rosy.

Man, the mental gymnastics that you’re doing in this post to try to re-assure yourself that everything is well and good in Leafs nation right now is incredible.

Have you been paying attention to what’s happened around here since Lou left?

What more do you need to see? LMFAO.
 
The Islanders gained Lou and lost Tavares and have had their two best seasons in recent franchise history.

We lost Lou and gained Tavares and have had two of our most pathetic post season exits in recent franchise history.

These are facts.

You say that the Islanders have a better coach, and I would agree with that. But we had a Hall of Fame coach too and we let Dubas fry him and replace him with a kid who had zero NHL experience.

You say the Islanders have a more well-rounded him, and yes I agree, but it's impossible to have a more well-rounded team when 4 finesse forwards are taking up half your cap. Who's fault is that? It's not Lou's, it's Dubas and Shanny's fault. They opened the vault for JT and then let the young core take them to the cleaners. Meanwhile, Lou got Barzal to agree to a $7 mil cap hit -- a hair higher than Nylander's.

Seeing the reality of how it's playing out for both franchises, there's no verbal gymnastics that can justify the opinion that we wouldn't be more successful right now if Lou was in charge and not Shanny/Dubas.

Bingo.
 
Lou wasnt finished. If he had more time he would have turned this team into what the Islanders are now - Championship calibre contenders who have finished in the final four in back to back seasons. They are a gritty competitive team. Even their fans are the loudest in the league

I envy Islanders and Lou's success since leaving. I think it was a mistake to go with Dubas full reigns at the helm and lose Lou I do. The results are in. At worst Lou would never have allowed such a soft team come playoff time.
 
For 3 years. It's a bridge deal. Let's not act like Barzal is taking a sweetheart deal here. And he had to take the $7 mil bridge because the team was in cap troubles. :thumbu:

And Matthews absolutely tore us to shreds for 5 years. If you're paying Matthews that salary, you better get him on a 7-year deal.

What you are overlooking is that Lou has built a culture in Long Island. For one, he hired Trotz so that's all on him. He also got Barzal to agree to a $7 mil cap hit -- and you say it was Barzal doing Lou a favor -- but I'll ask: how many of the core players did Dubas convince to do him a solid? ZERO.

That is the culture that Lou has built with the Islanders -- he's convinced a franchise player to give him a hometown discount, even if it's for a few years. Meanwhile, Marner and Matthews took Dubas to the shed. He also paid top dollar for Tavares (so much for the "I wanna come home" discount). All of this after he had a season-long impasse with Nylander for all intents and purposes, then caved at the last minute. Nylander returned and was a non-factor, which is no surprise considering he had no camp or games up until that point.

The thing is, I think this past season was Dubas' best as our GM! So this isn't as much about the awful job that Dubas has done as much as it is that I always respected, liked, and believed in Lou. I thought letting him walk and giving Dubas the keys was a colossal mistake the second it happened. Lou was trying to execute a long-term plan and his legs were cut out from under him by a regime who cannot beat out Columbus in the wildcard qualifier or a Montreal team who barely made the playoffs and couldn't hold a a candle to the Leafs on paper.
 
For 3 years. It's a bridge deal. Let's not act like Barzal is taking a sweetheart deal here. And he had to take the $7 mil bridge because the team was in cap troubles. :thumbu:

Leafs wouldn't be any better off with Lou. We simply don't have the players or playing style to grind it in the playoffs. Babs tried to turn our skilled players to play a grinder game and failed miserably.

Also, the Leafs under Dubas this year were on pace for one of the best regular-season records as a team. But playoff success eludes them. I don't think you can put the blame fully on the GM there. If you could, then Lou doesn't get a pass for f***ing handing out horrible deals to Martin, Zaitsev, Marleau. All of whom got us a combined 0 playoff series wins in 3 seasons under Lou.

Lou definitely gets credit for bringing in the vets on the Island but the quality of vets he's brought over have been a hell of a lot better than what he got here.
Lamoriello’s first year was a perfectly executed tank to draft what could be the best player in franchise history.

Sexond year he sent a team full of rookies who weren’t supposed to make the playoffs, went 6 games with Washington, a team a year away from winning.

Third year was a tough 7 game loss to the Bruins with again, a bunch of second year players.


Dubas’ first year he lost to those same Bruins but with $11M man John Tavares on his second line.

Second he lost in play in round with 3 of top 7 highest paid players. (Didn’t qualify for 16 team NHL playoffs)

Third he lost to a team that wouldn’t have made the playoffs in a normal year (again, with 3 of 7 highest paid players)

See a trend?
 
Lamoriello’s first year was a perfectly executed tank to draft what could be the best player in franchise history.

Sexond year he sent a team full of rookies who weren’t supposed to make the playoffs, went 6 games with Washington, a team a year away from winning.

Third year was a tough 7 game loss to the Bruins with again, a bunch of second year players.


Dubas’ first year he lost to those same Bruins but with John Tavares.

Second he lost in play in round with 3 of top 7 highest paid players. (Didn’t qualify for 16 team NHL playoffs)

Lost to a team that wouldn’t have made the playoffs in a normal year (again, with 3 of 7 highest paid players)

See a trend?

Agreed 100% and what's sad is that if there's a normal season next year, there's a fair chance that we may not even make the playoffs.

Tampa, Boston and Florida are going to be a handful and Ottawa is on the rise.

That means we'll likely have to take 1 of the 2 WC spots. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens.
 
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The Islanders gained Lou and lost Tavares and have had their two best seasons in recent franchise history.

We lost Lou and gained Tavares and have had two of our most pathetic post season exits in recent franchise history.

These are facts.

You say that the Islanders have a better coach, and I would agree with that. But we had a Hall of Fame coach too and we let Dubas fry him and replace him with a kid who had zero NHL experience.

You say the Islanders have a more well-rounded him, and yes I agree, but it's impossible to have a more well-rounded team when 4 finesse forwards are taking up half your cap. Who's fault is that? It's not Lou's, it's Dubas and Shanny's fault. They opened the vault for JT and then let the young core take them to the cleaners. Meanwhile, Lou got Barzal to agree to a $7 mil cap hit -- a hair higher than Nylander's.

Seeing the reality of how it's playing out for both franchises, there's no verbal gymnastics that can justify the opinion that we wouldn't be more successful right now if Lou was in charge and not Shanny/Dubas.

Very well put.
 
Agreed 100% and what's sad is that if there's a normal season next year, there's a fair chance that we may not even make the playoffs.

Tampa, Boston and Florida are going to be a handful and Ottawa is on the rise.

That means we'll likely have to take 1 of the 2 WC spots. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens.
Yeah. There’s a few Metro teams that could make those WC spots hard to get, too.

If the board still needs to see more to realize it isn’t working, maybe a straight miss of the playoffs will be the wake up call they need.

So unfortunate.
 
Lamoriello’s first year was a perfectly executed tank to draft what could be the best player in franchise history.

Sexond year he sent a team full of rookies who weren’t supposed to make the playoffs, went 6 games with Washington, a team a year away from winning.

Third year was a tough 7 game loss to the Bruins with again, a bunch of second year players.


Dubas’ first year he lost to those same Bruins but with $11M man John Tavares on his second line.

Second he lost in play in round with 3 of top 7 highest paid players. (Didn’t qualify for 16 team NHL playoffs)

Third he lost to a team that wouldn’t have made the playoffs in a normal year (again, with 3 of 7 highest paid players)

See a trend?

Toronto lost no matter who the GM or coach is or was.

You make some good observations, but I think the central element that distinguishes the Islanders from Toronto is the one move Lou was able to make: Barry Trotz.

And I think the Islanders would be in the playoffs had Tavares remained. It's Trotz that's the difference maker.

Timing is everything.

Its tough not to miss Lamoriello's culture of discipline and focus.
 
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