We didn’t know what we had

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
  • We're expeting server maintenance on March 3rd starting at midnight, there may be downtime during the work.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Toronto lost no matter who the GM or coach is or was.

You make some good observations, but I think the central element that distinguishes the Islanders from Toronto is the one move Lou was able to make: Barry Trotz.

And I think the Islanders would be in the playoffs had Tavares remained. It's Trotz that's the difference maker.

Timing is everything.

Its tough not to miss Lamoriello's culture of discipline and focus.
Indeed. Trotz can be a difference maker, but he also needs the stars to align with a GM that understands how to give him the right tools to be successful. Trotz post game after eliminating the Bruins was interesting to hear things like “Lou understands the intrinsic value of a player” and that the flash and numbers are the “sexy pick” so his work is overlooked.

I also think there’s a chance the Leafs have Barry Trotz had they stuck with Lamoriello. Babcock had opened himself to criticism after the first loss to Boston. He wasn’t Lou’s coach, but one that he really liked (just won a cup) and was available that summer.

Who knows?

I was always going to miss the discipline and culture that came with Lamoriello... but it’s the stark contrast that really makes it hurt even more right now.

Edit: For those that haven’t seen it - starts around 5:00.



No better advocate to have than the apparent best coach in the world.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TheGoldenJet
Lol was no other team trying to hire trotz?

Btw trotz even said he only went to the Islanders because of lou.

You fan boys have been wrong about the islanders for 3 years. Might as well keep the streak going with these terrible takes.

Comments like this make you sound like a clown...

having a friend that won 4 cups with them, and the fact that they were my favorite team during the Ballard years makes me take offense.

I also followed the Devils since inception, so, am well versed on Lou as well. ...for every one great thing he does, he does 2-3 small things that mess stuff up long term.

and even after last night, i still think they will lose to TB ...i could be wrong, but, thats my 'pick'
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cams
As opposed to Kyle who....for every one small good thing he does, he does 2-3 great things that mess stuff up long term
i think all the contracts he signed were too high... and he should have tried to get them signed as soon as they were eligible, so, those are huge mistakes, but, its still better to ahve elite players signed, than not have elite players.

the only thing that messed us up long term was the flat cap, and that affected every team, but, like i have said before, i'd rather have elite guys and fill in the roster with scrubs, than mid range and fill in the roster with scrubs, because thats all any team can afford to do right now anyways.
 
The worst thing Dubas has done is trade a 1st for Foligno in a year where the Leafs were unanimously favoured to go to at least the conf finals. A year where a fluke injury took out JT (one of the 10+ mil contracts) and even then we still managed to go to 3-1 before the team inexplicably collapsed including 2 OT losses where the team was fully in control of the games.

The GMs job is to reward the team when they do well and put them in the best possible situation to win. Dubas goofed it by trading for Foligno instead of Hall. The other factors that really hurt us were the Muzzin injury in game 5 and Zach Hyman (who was an absolute beast pre-injury) coming back to his stone hands Hyman form.

While some things are not defensible, I don't think any GM would foresee the injuries or the poor play of arguably their most consistent overall player.

On the other hand. Dubas managed to dump Marleau and pay a hefty price but his draft record has been very impressive that even though we are now missing 2 1st round picks, we still have a top 5 prospect pool and the majority of these kids were drafted in the 3rd round or later. He has a very good eye for talent whether it's through the draft or even pursuing international free agents. He's managed to recruit some pretty good names, even though these guys haven't all panned out. But he still lives up to his words and gives his players a chance to play (like trading them to crappier teams, Lehtonen/ Barabanov etc.).

The only other negative I can see that people bitch about is the big contracts but the reality is. Willy is now arguably underpaid or at worst on a team-friendly deal. Auston and Mitch both got paid but both are making market value. Neither of them took a discount and I don't think you can blame them or the team. Auston's been a PPG player since his sophomore season with a 40 G rookie campaign Marner turned in a 90+ point season in his 3rd year in the league and the last year of his ELC. You're not going to get a player on a discount at that production. And quite frankly, outside of the Crosby/ McDavid/ Ovi types, these guys don't have any other players with similar comparisons in their D+3/4 seasons and last years of their ELCs with good scoring pedigree. Even a guy like Draisaitl who people talk about being underpaid, took an 8 million dollar deal while putting up 70 points even though he had a ton of ice time with McDavid but a good yet nowhere near comparable ELC to either Matthews/ Marner. JT was a big-ticket signing and IMO overpaid by at least a mil or two. But that's the price you pay for going after a 1C in the UFA market in his prime.

I don't think anyone is singing Dubas's praise blindly. He's definitely made a few mistakes but the good thing about him is that he's done equally as many good things to help the team out in the long run. For every bad trade he makes, he's bailed himself out by recouping draft picks (like getting Hallander + Amirov) or drafting extremely well ensuring that the Leafs will always have a solid supply of quality ELC players coming up at least throughout the next few years where we don't have a ton of cap space.

Another thing that they've done well is that they've front-loaded every contract signed for every player with heavy signing bonus money and each of JT, Marner, Matthews and Willy are all going to be $6 mil/ year players in real money starting July 2nd of this season. If we really had to do it, we can sell off these guys and recoup a ton of assets. Even the Kerfoot/ Muzz/ Brodie deals have been well structured.

Dubas also had the foresight to find us a cheap goalie in Campbell while he was a relatively unknown asset around the league and whether you like it or not, he was one of the most impactful players on this team this year and will be our #1 going into the next few years. Yes, there are doubts but so far he's been steady. And yes, Dubas has vastly f***ed up covering his ass by not appropriately getting a backup like 2 years ago when we had to run Garrett Sparks, but he learned his lesson this year and our backups were massive and even though Fred was a major let down, we still comfortably sat atop the divison.

Pastrnak Last Season of his ELC had 70 pts in 75 games. Cap hit is currently $6.75 million. 62% of Marner's cap hit.
Point Last Season of his ELC had 92 pts in 79 games. Cap hit is currently $6.7 million. 61% of Marner's cap hit.
Rantanen Last Season of his ELC had 87 pts in 74 games. Cap his is currently $9.25 million. 85% of Marner's cap hit. Although Rantanen signed AFTER Marner cashed in. STILL got less.

They gave Matthews his deal due to a concern over an offer sheet.
Rumours are Marner received an offer sheet from Columbus and turned it down.

They still balked and handed Marner a ridiculous deal that paid him 40% more than comparable players. That's the contract that's hurting the Leafs now. A small, playmaking winger that has benefited from playing with two elite centres.
 
i think all the contracts he signed were too high... and he should have tried to get them signed as soon as they were eligible, so, those are huge mistakes, but, its still better to ahve elite players signed, than not have elite players.

the only thing that messed us up long term was the flat cap, and that affected every team, but, like i have said before, i'd rather have elite guys and fill in the roster with scrubs, than mid range and fill in the roster with scrubs, because thats all any team can afford to do right now anyways.

cut.jpg


I love Tavares. I used to go watch him with the Generals, followed his career on the Island and when I bought my Canada jersey, I got his.

However, he was a luxury that the Leafs could not afford and it has, and will continue to, handcuff the Leafs. It was a mistake that Dubas cannot recover from.
 
I love Tavares. I used to go watch him with the Generals, followed his career on the Island and when I bought my Canada jersey, I got his.

However, he was a luxury that the Leafs could not afford and it has, and will continue to, handcuff the Leafs. It was a mistake that Dubas cannot recover from.

Would have been perfectly fine had Marner not demanded to become the highest paid winger in hockey, which he nearly did. Falling just short of UFA Panarin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: usernamezrhardtodo
Would have been perfectly fine had Marner not demanded to become the highest paid winger in hockey, which he nearly did. Falling just short of UFA Panarin.

I'm sorry, but it wouldn't have been. Shave even $3M off of Marner's contract and they're not really that much better off.

I know there is this thought that a UFA is "just money" but in essence, the snowball effect of JT's signing cost us $11M in cap plus Brown, Kappanen, Johnnson, and the 2020 1st.
 
  • Like
Reactions: usernamezrhardtodo
I'm sorry, but it wouldn't have been. Shave even $3M off of Marner's contract and they're not really that much better off.

I know there is this thought that a UFA is "just money" but in essence, the snowball effect of JT's signing cost us $11M in cap plus Brown, Kappanen, Johnnson, and the 2020 1st.

I get your point, but Tavares has been excellent, and worth every cent.
The $3 million in savings for the ridiculous Marner contract likely allows us to keep at least Brown or the 1st.
Brown would have looked pretty good this year in the top 9.

Kapanen had a good year, but Johnsson was abysmal.
 
I'm sorry, but it wouldn't have been. Shave even $3M off of Marner's contract and they're not really that much better off.

I know there is this thought that a UFA is "just money" but in essence, the snowball effect of JT's signing cost us $11M in cap plus Brown, Kappanen, Johnnson, and the 2020 1st.
I agree. I also supported the Tavares signing at the time... but that's before I knew that Dubas is a cowardly weakling in the negotiation room. If someone told me at the time "But Marner and Matthews will also make 11 million", I would have laughed in their face.
 
I agree. I also supported the Tavares signing at the time... but that's before I knew that Dubas is a cowardly weakling in the negotiation room. If someone told me at the time "But Marner and Matthews will also make 11 million", I would have laughed in their face.

If you get the chance to sign one of the 'best' players in the world while still in their prime, you do it every time.
I would traded off Muzzin for example and not signed Brode to get Pietro, because players of that caliber seldom come available and are very difficult to find/acquire otherwise.

Would this past year would we have been better or worse with a defense like this below?

Reilly - Pietro
Dermot - Holl
Sandin - Bogo

...plus the 1st & or prospects we could have got for Muzzin, and had more $$ to sign better than min wage UFA's
Pietro signed at 8.8, Brodie and Muzzin are combined 10.625 ...an extra 1.8 mil could have added Haula or Hamonic, or Perry to the existing lineup, or upgraded one of the guys we picked up.
then it gives us the option to 'lose' Reilly (trade or UFA) and not be lacking a #1 D-man.
 
I agree. I also supported the Tavares signing at the time... but that's before I knew that Dubas is a cowardly weakling in the negotiation room. If someone told me at the time "But Marner and Matthews will also make 11 million", I would have laughed in their face.

Sure sure
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cams
Leaf fans are the smartest gms in the world cause they live in hindsight. Must be nice.

Well it's either living in the reality of hindsight or living in fantasyland. We all make our choices.
 
Hindsight?

So many people questioned everything:

1. Letting Lou go

2. Having a top heavy salary structure

3. Babcock

4. Rookie: Prez, GM, and Coach

5. The powerplay

6. The defence

Etc.

Nothing has been unanimous. Everything has been debatable. There hasn't been one moment where someone hasn't stood up and said "hey the powerplay is alarming", "These contracts are screwing up TOR's ability to compete", "The defense needs major improvements", "Hey I think Galychenuck isn't very good and does a lot of risky things out there", etc.

I think the "told you so's" need to get a lot louder IMHO.
 
Hindsight?

So many people questioned everything:

1. Letting Lou go

2. Having a top heavy salary structure

3. Babcock

4. Rookie: Prez, GM, and Coach

5. The powerplay

6. The defence

Etc.

Nothing has been unanimous. Everything has been debatable. There hasn't been one moment where someone hasn't stood up and said "hey the powerplay is alarming", "These contracts are screwing up TOR's ability to compete", "The defense needs major improvements", "Hey I think Galychenuck isn't very good and does a lot of risky things out there", etc.

I think the "told you so's" need to get a lot louder IMHO.

...at least we're not Buffalo??
 
Comments like this make you sound like a clown...

having a friend that won 4 cups with them, and the fact that they were my favorite team during the Ballard years makes me take offense.

I also followed the Devils since inception, so, am well versed on Lou as well. ...for every one great thing he does, he does 2-3 small things that mess stuff up long term.

and even after last night, i still think they will lose to TB ...i could be wrong, but, thats my 'pick'
Just eat your crow already. Lirl.

The proof is in pudding. MLSE made the wrong call. It was obvious to anyone with a brain :p
 
QHBS0Jj.jpg


You were cheering for the losers too. You even thought he “got it”. Ahahahahahhahaha

least I cheer for my team and don’t flip flop.
You don't cheer for the team you cheer for Kyle Dubas, Brandon Shanahan and Sheldon Keefe

Calling out management/players once we have seen them fail to take advantage of the easiest playoff match-up they could get these past 2 years isn't switching your takes it a natural process of evaluating the team and seeing that it's not good enough to believe as capable of winning
 
The flat cap caused this messy situation? You do realize that Dubas and the Leafs have only missed one off season cap rise to date? I can't remember the specific number of the forecasted cap rise for the summer of 2020 before the empty stadium hockey but what could have been? $3M maximum? And this season the league has given the teams many tools to handle the flat cap so the effects of the flat cap was lessened. This was happening regardless.
 
I envy Islanders and Lou's success since leaving. I think it was a mistake to go with Dubas full reigns at the helm and lose Lou I do. The results are in. At worst Lou would never have allowed such a soft team come playoff time.

Dubas caused this to happen because he was too eager to sit in the big chair. He forgot the mantra that he repeats constantly.."If you have time, use it."

He had time...Lou would have gladly stayed on for a year or 2..especially to teach him about big time contracts and how to deal with them. Dubas had experience signing unlimited Marlies players because he had MLSE behind him. He was paying AHL players 300K to come here...a Level playing field it was not.
 
Dubas caused this to happen because he was too eager to sit in the big chair. He forgot the mantra that he repeats constantly.."If you have time, use it."

He had time...Lou would have gladly stayed on for a year or 2..especially to teach him about big time contracts and how to deal with them. Dubas had experience signing unlimited Marlies players because he had MLSE behind him. He was paying AHL players 300K to come here...a Level playing field it was not.
I put most of the blame on Shanahan, he gave boy wonder the power to ruin the best chance at long term success this franchise has had since the oringal six era.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad