We didn’t know what we had

[Boxscore]

The only way Lou's vision would have played out here is if Dubas was never in the picture and didn't have Shanahan's ear. Lou has a high-level approach and thinks multiple steps ahead -- having an apprentice or President question and critique every one of your steps along the way is disheartening and counterproductive. For example -- people still blame Lou for the Marleau signing, but let's unpack this...

1. Lou signed Marleau to help show the young players how to conduct themselves off the ice and teach them by example how to be better professionals. He didn't sign Marleau to contend for a Cup -- Lou's plan was a long-term plan and it didn't include...

2. ... leapfrogging the rebuild and spending $11 million of cap space by signing John Tavares on the open market. This was all Dubas and Shanahan and logically went against the way Lou architects his teams to contend over the long haul. The only reason the Marleau contract was an "issue" was because Shanny and Dubas strayed from Lou's plan and made an executive decision to "commit to JT and worry about the rest later." Unfortunately, they didn't totally think it through, because if they did, they would have had a plan to extend their own core BEFORE making the Tavares splash.

Funny how Lou got Barzal to sign for a $7 mil cap hit (when he could have had the Isles over a barrel if he wanted to) and some here believe he wouldn't be able to have gotten Marner, Nylander and Matthews to re-up for less? He could have and would have, because he wouldn't have signed Tavares to the 2nd highest cap hit behind McDavid at the time, which set the precedent that the Leafs were a bank who left the vault wide open at night.

The Leafs would be a top contender right now like the Islanders are, with much better overall talent, if Lou had free reign to execute his plan.

 

[Racer88]

He's proven he cannot get it done 3 years in a row, and it could be more difficult a task this summer. Seriously, can somebody in senior management wake up and smell the coffee ??

It blows my mind that Shanny is so oblivious to the state of this team and what a mess Dubas has made of it.
I scares the crap out of me that he could be in charge of what ever changes are made this off season…….even if he trades Marner I think he will mess it up

 

[ToneDog]

It blows my mind that Shanny is so oblivious to the state of this team and what a mess Dubas has made of it.
I scares the crap out of me that he could be in charge of what ever changes are made this off season…….even if he trades Marner I think he will mess it up

When they fired Babs, he came out and virtually tied Dubas to his hip. He now can't say Dubas is a fraud because he would be incriminating himself as well, just like Dubas can't fire "his" coach. As such Shanny and Dubas will try again and again (if allowed) until they are fired or find some magic beans.

 

[ACC1224]

It blows my mind that Shanny is so oblivious to the state of this team and what a mess Dubas has made of it.
I scares the crap out of me that he could be in charge of what ever changes are made this off season…….even if he trades Marner I think he will mess it up

How do you know he’s oblivious to it?

 

[Racer88]

How do you know he’s oblivious to it?

Simple. Because he hasn’t done anything about it. Actions speak louder then words and Shanny has been basically invisible

 

[Racer88]

The horrible PP was an early warning system that something was wrong with either the makeup of the team or the coach’s ability to adapt or the players unwillingness to do as asked………and still nobody did anything

 

[ACC1224]

Simple. Because he hasn’t done anything about it. Actions speak louder then words and Shanny has been basically invisible

Rash decisions wouldn’t be good either. There is plenty of time for action.

 

[Trapper]

When they fired Babs, he came out and virtually tied Dubas to his hip. He now can't say Dubas is a fraud because he would be incriminating himself as well, just like Dubas can't fire "his" coach. As such Shanny and Dubas will try again and again (if allowed) until they are fired or find some magic beans.

This current management/core philosophy has 3 years of life left barring some major progression.

Tavares played 9 years in NY, only made it past the 1st round once and left for home UFA.

Another failure won’t sit well on Dubas.
In 3 years he walked Matthews/Nylander to UFA and they just might decide to see what offers are out there. We know they will take top dollar.

In the end fighting over not moving one may just cost you more later.
We will see.

 

[Racer88]

Rash decisions wouldn’t be good either. There is plenty of time for action.

I agree that rash decisions are usually not good one but I think we have seen enough evidence that this type of build model is not likely to be successful.
I guess all I can hope for is that MLSE is waiting for the playoffs to be finished before doing anything.
I’m alway going to be a Leaf fan but it’s going to be hard to be optimistic about going into next year if management and the core 4 is exactly the same……no matter what other player shuffles they do

 

[Racer88]

This current management/core philosophy has 3 years of life left barring some major progression.

Tavares played 9 years in NY, only made it past the 1st round once and left for home UFA.

Another failure won’t sit well on Dubas.
In 3 years he walked Matthews/Nylander to UFA and they just might decide to see what offers are out there. We know they will take top dollar.

In the end fighting over not moving one may just cost you more later.
We will see.

I just hope and pray that if that scenario comes true that it is someone more qualified the Dubas pulling the trigger……..he is just awful

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Sandin played five playoff games and singlehandedly lost TWO (2) of this with his brutal turnovers.

The guy is complete trash and hopeless as an NHL defenceman.

Way too slow, way too soft and way too small.

I don't worry so much about him being too small. He is more physical than Reilly is and more aware defensively. But, he has some serious skating issues. How people don't see that is simply amazing. He is soooo slow that he would be neck and neck with Jumbo in a straight line race. If he can't fix that...he will be just another under sized PP specialist that gets 3rd pairing competition because he won't be able to skate with the higher up in the line-up players. Getting him to be less casual with the puck is another thing they need to work on as well.

But I do agree on the 2 losses being attributed to his mistakes for the most part. But I also attribute this stupid turning back into your zone to regroup for Dermott's mess up in overtime. The value of doing the turnback is negated IMO by the disaster that can happen (and did) when a mistake is made. Coaching is the issue...or at least the system they play.

 

[Boxscore]

Simple. Because he hasn’t done anything about it. Actions speak louder then words and Shanny has been basically invisible

Not only that -- Shanny chose Dubas (and ultimately Keefe) over Lou and Babcock. So he put the Leafs destiny in the hands of two children with no track record instead of two hockey men with Hall of Fame resumes filled with accomplishments. At this point, Shanny must double-down on Dubas because if he doesn't it's he who looks like the ultimate fool.

 

[The Masters]

Simple. Because he hasn’t done anything about it. Actions speak louder then words and Shanny has been basically invisible

Hes oblivious because any president/gm would have said we have to evaluate (especially after 4 straight first round losses) instead of backing them 2 days after u crumble against montreal. Shanny has no one breathing down his neck and thats a problem. This leafs team gonna waste another 3 years with him.

 

[Boxscore]

Rash decisions wouldn’t be good either. There is plenty of time for action.

I do agree with this. Unfortunately, Shanny and Dubas put us in a "we made our bed now we have to sleep in it" scenario. However, calculated big-picture decisions do need to be made. You don't "blow it up" or trade a core piece just to make a statement, you do it to rebalance the team, which so far, Dubas and Shanny won't even entertain.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

You asked a question and you have my answer -- while I am fine Lamoriello, if I had to choose I would choose Dubas because he has a higher ceiling.

You evidently don't like my answer, but that's my opinion and that's what you asked.

You're very entrenched in your position, and I'm not asking nor expecting you to agree -- and I'm not interested in debating it with you because I don't think you have an open mind.

Who would I prefer? Dubas, since you asked. Thats all there is to it.

Nothing you've said has changed my mind.

I would have preferred Dubas had Lou stayed on for a couple more years to teach him how to deal with big contracts and bratty players (Marner)...Dubas winning a Calder with a stacked team is not something I would hang my hat on if I were him. Had he spent more years learning he could have blended his progressive knowledge with analytics to the more traditional team building that Lou uses and we might have hit the jackpot. He might have learned that trading a guy like Connor Brown would be a mistake (I know...Zaitsev caused the trading of Brown) and when Lou said building a team is like building an orchestra ...he was right. You can't have all violin players or Tuba players..you need all kind.

Dubas thinks we need violin players for every position for the most part and its showing that we can't win in the playoffs with only those types.

 

[gamer1035]

There is still time. We need to clear house in terms of management. Salvage some of this core, flip the rest for new core pieces and do what we can to salvage what we have left. Matthews is the second best player in the league. He is one of our best shots to win the cup. Find a gm who can build a team around him.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

And the first step is having a program to buy into.

Is the Leafs program to:

• Outwork the other team?
• Always be first on the puck?
• Finish your checks?
• Aggressive and relentlessly forecheck?
• Smother defensively and capitalize on mistakes?
• Create chaos in front of the opposing net?

I've heard it's "puck. possession" but I'm not sure what that entails and it seems like it's a fairly easy strategy to counteract.

On the broadcasts I often hear about the forward who comes back high in the O zone, and how they pass it back to the D in order to complete a line change. The commentators always seem more impressed than I am.

The hilarious part of the constant turn back and regrouping we do is that we end up just shooting it into the zone anyways and we usually fail to recover the puck. Why? Because we have 2 guys on the team (AM and Hyman) that are good at board battles...nobody else is even close.

We have no identity IMO...when they say we want a skilled team...what does that entail? Non- aggressive perimeter players? I don't know what this mishmash of players even is TBH.

 

[ToneDog]

I would have preferred Dubas had Lou stayed on for a couple more years to teach him how to deal with big contracts and bratty players (Marner)...Dubas winning a Calder with a stacked team is not something I would hang my hat on if I were him. Had he spent more years learning he could have blended his progressive knowledge with analytics to the more traditional team building that Lou uses and we might have hit the jackpot. He might have learned that trading a guy like Connor Brown would be a mistake (I know...Zaitsev caused the trading of Brown) and when Lou said building a team is like building an orchestra ...he was right. You can't have all violin players or Tuba players..you need all kind.

Dubas thinks we need violin players for every position for the most part and its showing that we can't win in the playoffs with only those types.

Interesting that you mention violins. Lou said in an interview I heard that you need different types of instruments to build an orchestra. So Lou is building an orchestra on the Island while Dubas built a string quartet that is fiddling while the Titanic is sinking.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Don’t you think he’s doing that? Last year he went out and got defence and grit. And nobody showed up in the playoffs. Sometimes it’s not just on the GM, the players need to be held accountable. But Dubas is doing his even if you don’t agree with his decisions.

He picked the players for the most part...so if they are under performing...whose fault is that?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I'm rubbing my hands in anticipation of what delicious bounty this summer's airlift brings to town. What former stars and almost were's will make the big difference this time around? Who will be 2021-22's Vesey or Thornton or Boyd or Simmonds? They say skill is the new grit. It's called outside the box thinking <taps head>.

The same people that are waiting for the airlift coming are the ones who raved about Galchenyuk and what a great reclamation project he was. I was under impressed by him. He played on the top 2 lines for most of his tenure and didn't really score much. If they consider that a success where they get a guy who was thought to be totally useless and he is just somewhat useless...we are in trouble. The only guy that has worked out in the bargain bin shopping spree's is Spezza.

 

[Superstar]

The hilarious part of the constant turn back and regrouping we do is that we end up just shooting it into the zone anyways and we usually fail to recover the puck. Why? Because we have 2 guys on the team (AM and Hyman) that are good at board battles...nobody else is even close.

We have no identity IMO...when they say we want a skilled team...what does that entail? Non- aggressive perimeter players? I don't know what this mishmash of players even is TBH.

At least Dubas is standing inside the captain's cabin while it sinks...

 

[mikeyz]

Not only that -- Shanny chose Dubas (and ultimately Keefe) over Lou and Babcock. So he put the Leafs destiny in the hands of two children with no track record instead of two hockey men with Hall of Fame resumes filled with accomplishments. At this point, Shanny must double-down on Dubas because if he doesn't it's he who looks like the ultimate fool.

Unfortunately I think this is accurate.

But that means that Shanny needs to be fired too.

 

[egd27]

The hilarious part of the constant turn back and regrouping we do is that we end up just shooting it into the zone anyways and we usually fail to recover the puck. Why? Because we have 2 guys on the team (AM and Hyman) that are good at board battles...nobody else is even close.

We have no identity IMO...when they say we want a skilled team...what does that entail? Non- aggressive perimeter players? I don't know what this mishmash of players even is TBH.

Exactly.
I thought one of the strategies was to utilize quick puck moving defensemen to capitalize on transition opportunities.
Now these players get to turn back, wait for our guys to change, while the opposition changes and gets their defensive alignment in place for our "attack".
And the high forward back allows us 3 players 60 feet from the net instead of only 3.
Don't sound like winning tactics against a team committed to defend.

 

[Arzak]

I would guess the same but 1 less year. I’d rather money be spent on Centre’s than a winger.

hell, I’m all for trading Marner for Eichel

Matthews
Eichel
Tavares

down the middle? Good lord

wow so you think he would get an even better deal to be 2 C

Do me a favor, think you are Buffalo. Why would you want Marner for Eichel? To get a worse player, on less valuable position and on a bad contract. Does it make any sense? Probably gonna ask butload of 1st round picks for him as trading Eichel means another rebuild from Buffalo perspective.

No one is rebuilding around Marner. He is useless as number 5 as far as importance on the team goes. Make him number 1 in Buffalo and you can relocate them...

BTW The smallest 6 foot player ever..My god how is he 6 foot.. the exact same height as Pasta..

 

[nobody]

It's funny to see some of the same people who refer to Dubas as Dumbass and bad-mouth all of his contract signings are the same people wishing Lou was here. If Lou was here, he would've run out one of Matthews/Marner/Willy out of town and replaced them with "character guys" like Matt f***ing Martin. And those character guys would be making high $$ while playing on a team with a system run by Babs that isn't suited for those types of players.