We didn’t know what we had

[Garthinater]

Dubas has 1 more year only because Shanahan likes him. So this might be the last 12 months of Kyle.

Hopefully we get lucky and its less than 12 months.

 

[egd27]

Why has no one in leafie land, eased up on the punches to leaf management and noticed a pretty good team was skunked, habs went from going the limit with us, and crunching the JETS.

No mention of that here. Just moaning and whining and whaling about how the sky is grey etc....

Habs, got three allstars back into the lineup, just for the playoffs and they all stood tall.

UGH, lay off a bit and show some respect.

This is chess, not checkers. Carey Price and Weber dialed in, with a great talented pest like Gallagher injected into the lineup.....

Leafs are a darn good team, we lost to a slightly better team. End of ecoute

They were up 3-1, got complacent, and then got burned by a team that outworked them.....again.

As far as the chess analogy, their coach is still trying to figure out tic tac toe. Checkers would be an improvement.

30+ games with a failing powerplay....no changes.

And without the common sense to even try splitting M&M when he watched them get shut down playing together for the entire CBJ series and now the Montreal series.

Lay off and show some respect? Give me a break

 

[egd27]

Nah. I think any reasonable leafs fan knew exactly what they had with Lou. He had some good deals/trades but some really bad ones as well. Difference between him and Dubas is that I’d rather have Dubas over pay the young up and coming stars than a bunch of has been and never was.

I'd rather have a hard working team of puck hounds in the Final 4.......again

 

[Mess]

Worth noting, the Leafs current defensive spending isn't particularly out of line with what most teams spend. Tampa spends about 6 mil more, the Habs 5 mil more, the Islander's are about the same as the Leafs and Knights about 2 mil more. And the Leafs spend about 2 mil more than the Avs did.

If one wants to re-balance the Leafs cap it would likely involve spending more money on depth forwards than redirecting most of that money on defense

Unless that Dman is a Norris trophy player like Hedman.

But your not wrong that Leafs depth took a big hit post Lou, mainly due to the signing of JT and giving Auston and Mitch $11 mil also.

Case in point when the Leafs were a 105 point team (which Dubas inherited) they had a 3rd line of JVR ($5 mil & 36 goals) + Bozak ($5 mil & 14 goals ) + Marner (on ELC @ $1 mil & 22 goals) and had a $11 mil AAV 3rd line total that put up 72 goals, behind Matthews and Kadri lines #1 & #2.

Then Dubas gave Marner $11 mil himself and let JVR and Bozak walk for Cap constraint reasons and now filling is 3rd line with players left making $750k-$1 mil and searching for bargain basement players for cap reasons.

Ditto for his 2nd line.

Marleau @ $6.25 mil ( 27 goals) + Kadri @ $4.5 mil (32 goals) + Connor Brown @2.1 mil (14 goals) = $12.85 mil AAV total and 73 goals .. Then Dubas signed JT for $11 mil to be his 2nd line C, had to dump his 1st round pick to remove Marleau and had to trade Kadri and Brown all for cap reasons now to fit Tavares $11 mil and now has to use Mikheyev $1.65 mil to balance his cap and his 7 goals.

This was while his 1st line of Hyman (15 goals) + Matthews (34 goals) and Nylander (22 goals) = 71 goals combined all as rookies and 2nd year players.. Then Dubas gave Matthews $11.6 and Nylander $7 mil.

Our Leafs strength on why they were successful was a deep and balance top 9 forwards where Line #1 = 71 goals & Line #2 = 73 goals and line #3 = 72 goals.

Now Dubas has taken that strength and turned it into a weakness by paying 4 Forwards 1/2 his total salary cap (completely gutted the middle depth scoring) and bottom filling with annual rotating depth players making $700 - $1.5 mil and gets Thornton + Spezza + Simmonds + Mikheyev + Engvall+ Vesey + Boyd + Galchenyuk + Brooks + Kerfoot etc.

That is why many experts say Leafs can't ice a Cup competitive team building around just 4 forwards and it really isn't about the D nor the G.

Then you look at the playoffs and $11 mil JT gets hurt and 0 points and Matthews 1 goal and Marner 0 goals and your $33.5 mil cap usage produce 1 playoff goal in 7 games combined and people are wondering what went wrong. Dubas gutted his entire forward group to afford those 3 star players who all now have 3 of the top 5 highest AAV contracts in the league.

So to fix this you undo the mistake and turn Marner's $11 mil into a pair of top 9 forwards making $5 and $6 mil and scoring 30 goals each instead of living with Marner's 20-25 for $11 mil. However Dubas plans on swapping out Thornton, Simmonds and Engvall with some different $1 mil or less players and thinks that solves everything.

 

[Ciao]

Thats all fine and dandy but how do you measure "ceiling" when it comes to gms?

You have made your position clear but it doesn't appear to be based on facts or reality.

I've shown you that lou only had success / progress with us and the islanders.

Dubas has only had stagnation or regression.

It is just wishful thinking? Or can you explain how you've come to this conclusion?

I don't care to get into a pissing match comparing Lou Lamoriello to Kyle Dubas.

It would be easy to pull either of them apart, but its not necessary to do so. I would have been fine if Lou had continued on longer, and I'm fine with Kyle taking over when he did.

I'm not going to dis Lou to defend Kyle, but if you really want to know which of them I prefer it's Kyle. Make of that what you will.

I'm still not understanding why you feel the need to attack Kyle in a Lou tribute thread.

 

[mikeyz]

I don't care to get into a pissing match comparing Lou Lamoriello to Kyle Dubas.

It would be easy to pull either of them apart, but its not necessary to do so. I would have been fine if Lou had continued on longer, and I'm fine with Kyle taking over when he did.

I'm not going to dis Lou to defend Kyle, but if you really want to know which of them I prefer it's Kyle. Make of that what you will.

I'm still not understanding why you feel the need to attack Kyle in a Lou tribute thread.

You don’t want to get into a pissing matchup comparing the 2, but, you prefer Dubas.

Well, I don’t blame you. At least you’re smart enough to know that you can’t bring a Swiss Army knife to a bazooka fight. Lol.

 

[Tak7]

I'd rather have a hard working team of puck hounds in the Final 4.......again

I like Dubas. I defend him a lot.

It's funny though, that while we idolize Zach Hyman here, Lou has basically created a team full of Hyman's

 

[centipede2233]

I think Kyle dubas sucks at his job, that is all.

 

[forecheck]

A GM like Dubas is far more likely to promote the type of drafting that gets Point and Kucherov than Lou.

Last time I checked - You need draft picks to Draft i beleive?
Dubas gives all the picks away chasing his tail to fix his mistakes.

 

[forecheck]

I imagine if Dubas doesn't win next year he's gone. I think he's deserved that.

Hard for me to fault Dubas for what happened to the Leafs this year. But fans just want a linear issue to blame versus looking at things as nuanced.

The reality is the Maple Leafs have been favorites in two series since they made the playoffs. They've lost two of them. One of them was during the COVID cup. One of them was when they lost 11 million dollars of cap hit in the first period of G1.

Actually the " Covid Cup " loss to Colombus was a play in round to make the playoffs - So they did not actually make the playoffs that year .

 

[forecheck]

How do you measure heart and skill and why do Matthews and Marner not have it?

Who has heart and skill? Did Crosby not have heart and skill this year when he sucked ass in the playoffs?

Gotta go though, Rudy is playing at the drive-in. I'll let you know my takeaways when I get back.

Here - I will save you the trip ....

Rudy = Heart and Determination
Mathews - Marner = Selfish , Me players , Losers

 

[sparxx87]

I've played hockey my entire life and I'm a fan of the most successful hockey team of the past 30 years. I've seen more winning as a fan than you've seen so does that make me more qualified?

This is word for word the same exact argument PIT and mainboard fans made about CHI and LA while Crosby and Malkin sucked ass from 2010 - 2015.

Toews was a true winner. Depth won championships, blah blah blah.

There's more than one way to win a cup. Who expected St Louis to win in 2019.

What level hockey did you play? Have you ever coached? Won in either?

You’re a Red Wings fan?

Cheering for your team to win isn’t the same as seeing winning. Anyone can see winning every year, you just have to watch and understand it. Being able to draw on your experience as a player or coach and relate it what you’re seeing is an important part of really understanding how and why things happen.

Why was Chicago so special? Do you even know?

When you’re cheering, that brings emotion into the equation and would have you say silly things like “it’s all luck”.

 

[sparxx87]

I don't think even 1 player was drafted/developed by him on the NYI squad. Why are people thinking he did something praiseworthy? He only added a bunch of plugs, but the team is feeding off of their star players and not those plugs.

Noah Dobson? His first pick on the job, already in their top 4 and on trajectory to be a number 1 for the next decade.

Trades he’s made have been great, too. Tavares left and gave him Barzal and Nelson as his top 2 centres. Love Cizikas as your 4 but don’t love him at 3. Targeted JG Pageau for his 3rd and paid a price that he was widely criticized for. He’s laughing now, it’s been a great fit and just another great part of their well balanced attack.

The Zajac-Palmieri is just another example of him playing chess while others are playing checkers.

 

[ToneDog]

Noah Dobson? His first pick on the job, already in their top 4 and on trajectory to be a number 1 for the next decade.

Trades he’s made have been great, too. Tavares left and gave him Barzal and Nelson as his top 2 centres. Love Cizikas as your 4 but don’t love him at 3. Targeted JG Pageau for his 3rd and paid a price that he was widely criticized for. He’s laughing now, it’s been a great fit and just another great part of their well balanced attack.

The Zajac-Palmieri is just another example of him playing chess while others are playing checkers.

Lou has players who buy into the program and are playoff performers. His pieces are all interchangeable. Lee goes down and they do not miss a beat.

Leafs are comprised of stars and scrubs. One star goes down and you are all but done in the playoffs.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Sure, but Tampa are the reigning champs, and a current favourite to repeat. Their core players are Point, Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman. Does that seem like a bunch of tough hombres?

Tampa showed us last year that you can take a skilled core, surround them with toughness, and win. It's a good model for our team to try to follow.

Kucherov, Point, Hedman are all pretty gritty, won't shy from contact, engage at times and play in high traffic areas. Stamkos...yea kinda soft.

 

[sparxx87]

Kucherov, Point, Hedman are all pretty gritty, won't shy from contact, engage at times and play in high traffic areas. Stamkos...yea kinda soft.

Well, 1/4 isn’t bad I guess?

Wont find two more intense competitors than Point and Kucherov. Both play a little nasty and won’t back down... Hedman plays tough and physical as well.

 

[justashadowof]

I like Dubas. I defend him a lot.

It's funny though, that while we idolize Zach Hyman here, Lou has basically created a team full of Hyman's

Fast forward 2 months, Lou has signed Zach Hyman to a contract Dubas wouldn't give him.

 

[shortfuze]

I'd rather have a hard working team of puck hounds in the Final 4.......again

So what do you expect Dubas to do? Trade his star players for a bunch of puck hounds and lose trades? I’d like those players to but trades have to fit. If he’s not getting the right players in trades you keep what you have and hope to build around them.

 

[shortfuze]

Guess you prefer 1st round exits to making the semis.

Never mind. Already answered.

 

[sparxx87]

So what do you expect Dubas to do? Trade his star players for a bunch of puck hounds and lose trades? I’d like those players to but trades have to fit. If he’s not getting the right players in trades you keep what you have and hope to build around them.

3 years until Auston Matthews is a UFA.

Tick tock.

 

[shortfuze]

3 years until Auston Matthews is a UFA.

Tick tock.

You should probably worry yourself about this year and not what happens in 3 years.

 

[egd27]

Lou has players who buy into the program and are playoff performers.

And the first step is having a program to buy into.

Is the Leafs program to:

• Outwork the other team?
• Always be first on the puck?
• Finish your checks?
• Aggressive and relentlessly forecheck?
• Smother defensively and capitalize on mistakes?
• Create chaos in front of the opposing net?

I've heard it's "puck. possession" but I'm not sure what that entails and it seems like it's a fairly easy strategy to counteract.

On the broadcasts I often hear about the forward who comes back high in the O zone, and how they pass it back to the D in order to complete a line change. The commentators always seem more impressed than I am.

 

[Trapper]

Lou has players who buy into the program and are playoff performers. His pieces are all interchangeable. Lee goes down and they do not miss a beat.

Leafs are comprised of stars and scrubs. One star goes down and you are all but done in the playoffs.

And the stars don’t buy into that form of play.

 

[sparxx87]

You should probably worry yourself about this year and not what happens in 3 years.

Indeed, but you’re always looking long term direction.

 

[sparxx87]

And the stars don’t buy into that form of play.

Which is why someone like Marleau was important.

The example set by the richest and longest serving player to still come to work everyday and buy into what the coach was selling.

Babcock was unlikable, but how is Matthews or Marner going to complain or coast when Patty Marleau is toeing the line?