We didn’t know what we had

[mikeyz]

Maybe so. Hard to say this team was born to choke so don't know if Lou could fix that.

Well. It would certainly help that Lou wouldn't have bent over to JT, Matthews and especially Marner in contract negotiations.

 

[AllDay28]

Not much, that’s what.

As evidenced by your repeated guarantees when the series was 3-1 that Toronto would absolutely beat Montreal.

and you’re a fan of a team and get excited they lose. I’d rather be optimistic than a f***ing loser.

 

[mikeyz]

No one can win with 4 players making 50% of the cap…

penguins 16/17 (cup winners)
Cap: 73.1
Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Flower = 45%

leafs 20/21
Cap: 84.1
Matthews / Marner / Nylander / Tavares = 48%

"The Leafs are going to win this series bro!!! They're up 3-1. I guarantee it. Who wants to make an account bet!!!!?????"

 

[AllDay28]

Well. It would certainly help that Lou wouldn't have bent over to JT, Matthews and especially Marner in contract negotiations.

ya Lou didn’t try to resign Tavares in NY or anything …

 

[LeafGrief]

Never understood why people need to put down what Lou Lam has done as a way of propping up Dubas and his failings. It really looks dumber and dumber with each passing series win.

I mean, I look at our GM and remember that he was literally taught by Lou. Our GM pays first round picks for rentals, so does Lou. Our GM trades away good young players/draft picks because he has no cap space. So does Lou. Our GM overpays "his guys", so does Lou.

Lou has built a very good team in Long Island and I'm not disputing that in the whiny posts I've made over the last half hour. But I also feel like people have completely lost sight of proper expectations for a GM. Has Dubas made multiple f*** ups in his time as a GM? Yes. Indisputably yes. But if you want to hold up Lou as a paragon of General Management, which is honestly fair considering his success, you have to take in the good and bad in order to have proper expectations for our guy. Lou has made mistakes. Dubas has made mistakes. Lou has built a better team, awesome, great for him. But honest to god 90% of the criticism I'm seeing in this thread that's being thrown at Dubas is absolutely wild, because nobody is actually taking the time to look at the Islanders with all of their strengths and weaknesses and then try to extrapolate that to the Leafs. To me, the Islanders are a success story built around an amazeballs coach and players who have bought in completely. I want to know how Lou is finding those guys who buy in completely. I don't give a rat's ass about either of them overpaying players, or their cap management tbh, because that's clearly not a problem for the Islanders, so why is that such a huge dunk on Dubas? Overpaying all stars is somehow way worse than overpaying fourth liners? Nah, I don't think that argument holds water so how about someone tell me where Lou is actually doing things right.

 

[ToneDog]

When the Lightning were swept by Columbus they had; JT Miller, Adam Erne, Ryan Callahan, Dan Girardi, and Anton Stralman.
When they won the cup a year later they had added; Kevin Shattenkirk, Pat Maroon, Carter Verhaeghe, Barclay Goodrow, Zach Bogosian, and Blake Coleman.

And then there's the edge of the roster stuff like Koekoek, McBackup, Schenn, and all the other depth.

Blaming roster turnover for the Leafs woes is hella weird.

Worked for Tampa because of the performance of their core players in the playoffs and they had cap space and assets to add at the TDL. Vassy, Hedman, Point and Kutcherov were elite and the rest pulled their weight and more. Sure if our core play up to their pay grades and Dubas can surround them with similar players to Tampa's, it could work here but Dubas has his hands full when not only are you looking to find replacements for Hyman (probably), Jumbo, Kerfoot, Simmonds, you should also replace Mikheyev and Engval. The fact that you also do not have a true #1 goalie doesn't help.

BTW, how did it work last summer ?

 

[AllDay28]

"The Leafs are going to win this series bro!!! They're up 3-1. I guarantee it. Who wants to make an account bet!!!!?????"

how come you didn’t take me up on the bet? Seems like you thought the Leafs would win too

also, you think I care that much about Hf? I’ll just go hang out with NHLers who don’t even know this site exists. Watch out I’m gone from a forummmm

 

[mikeyz]

and you’re a fan of a team and get excited they lose. I’d rather be optimistic than a f***ing loser.

Lol. Well. I wouldn't go that far. But, after reading your constant fanboy take posts on here, it certainly takes alot of the sting away when they do lose.

 

[Kurtz]

A lot of good stuff here, and I agree with most of it.

1. Lou wanted to move Ladd, a contract he didn’t sign, but the price didn’t make sense. He instead swapped his 5 D man who had a rough playoff for futures. We don’t know what else was on the table, but this seems like a reasonable solution to the problem given your current defense group.

2. Komorov, for example, is $3M junk to you. To them, he’s a unique player with leadership qualities that embodies the culture they want to live by. Can play anywhere in the lineup and near the top of the depth chart it high leverage defensive situations. This is a value ale player to them although I agree, a little to pricey for me. He slots better on a 3rd or 4th line but still, looks pretty good on the top line with Barzal and Eberle. A player that can do all these things is a nice luxury to have.

3. Brisebois spent 9 years under Yzerman. Dubas needed more time and guidance if he was to be a serious candidate. I can see logic in some of his moves, but he seems very out of touch in others.

1. Toews had a rough playoffs? He was a plus player and put up 10 points playing 21 minutes per game last year. Shit, I'll take that "rough" playoffs from a 2nd year dman any day. Sandin is a guy who truly had a rough playoffs - I imagine you'll also stan for Dubas if he moves Sundin for a pair of late 2nd round picks?

2. Yes, Komarov was so instrumental to the Isles that they had him as a healthy scratch for nearly half the season and waived him twice.


What a weird alternate reality.

 

[sparxx87]

No one can win with 4 players making 50% of the cap…

penguins 16/17 (cup winners)
Cap: 73.1
Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Flower = 45%

leafs 20/21
Cap: 84.1
Matthews / Marner / Nylander / Tavares = 48%

Great! So Matthews and Tavares just have to be prime Malkin and Crosby... Marner learn to play defense and Nylander in goal.

I believe they’ve been saying 4 forwards for a reason. Big difference.

 

[Donnie740]

and you’re a fan of a team and get excited they lose. I’d rather be optimistic than a f***ing loser.

Absolutely I’m thrilled that Toronto lost because they’re that much closer to getting rid of these incompetent gimps and actually having a chance at winning a cup.

Never going to win a championship with Dubas and Keefe - - they may not even win a single playoff series before they get fired.

 

[Leafs87]

This exactly. He should have been kept around until the 3 RFA's were signed at least, instead of handing the keys to those negotiations to an inexperienced rookie who got taken to the cleaners.

I understand Dubas had interest from Colorado and whoever else but tell him his primary role is player development and the draft while Lou handles the big team. You want to up and move to another city rather than be the heir apparent GM in Toronto? We wish you good luck

Yes exactly my thoughts. take away those 3 contracts(Tavares M/M not Nylander) and his stint isn’t bad.
His only mistake however is an awfully big one.
I’d say the next team is lucky to have Dubas as he’s learned (I would hope).

maybe Toronto even keeps him and “writes these seasons off”. Going forward I have slight confidence, so long as he gets away from his skill/finesse only bs

 

[Donnie740]

I’ll just go hang out with NHLers who don’t even know this site exists.

That sounds like something a little jock sniff would say.

No wonder you’re such a fanboi of Dubas.

 

[Donnie740]

Yes exactly my thoughts. take away those 3 contracts(Tavares M/M not Nylander) and his stint isn’t bad.
His only mistake however is an awfully big one.
I’d say the next team is lucky to have Dubas as he’s learned (I would hope).

maybe Toronto even keeps him and “writes these seasons off”. Going forward I have slight confidence, so long as he gets away from his skill/finesse only bs

Giving away so many draft picks with nothing to show for them in return is a pretty atrocious mistake too.

 

[Kurtz]

Yes exactly my thoughts. take away those 3 contracts(Tavares M/M not Nylander) and his stint isn’t bad.
His only mistake however is an awfully big one.
I’d say the next team is lucky to have Dubas as he’s learned (I would hope).

maybe Toronto even keeps him and “writes these seasons off”. Going forward I have slight confidence, so long as he gets away from his skill/finesse only bs

He's learned and started adding toughness last year. I bet we'll be adding more this offseason. His first year on the job and "our pp will be our enforcer" mindset was extremely naive though.

 

[LeafGrief]

A lot of good stuff here, and I agree with most of it.

1. Lou wanted to move Ladd, a contract he didn’t sign, but the price didn’t make sense. He instead swapped his 5 D man who had a rough playoff for futures. We don’t know what else was on the table, but this seems like a reasonable solution to the problem given your current defense group.

2. Komorov, for example, is $3M junk to you. To them, he’s a unique player with leadership qualities that embodies the culture they want to live by. Can play anywhere in the lineup and near the top of the depth chart it high leverage defensive situations. This is a value ale player to them although I agree, a little to pricey for me. He slots better on a 3rd or 4th line but still, looks pretty good on the top line with Barzal and Eberle. A player that can do all these things is a nice luxury to have.

3. Brisebois spent 9 years under Yzerman. Dubas needed more time and guidance if he was to be a serious candidate. I can see logic in some of his moves, but he seems very out of touch in others.

4. The template is easy. Finding the right players for each specific role is the hard part. That’s where I really don’t trust Dubas.

I'm really not worried about Ladd and what I keep trying to argue with other posters in this thread is that because Ladd doesn't matter that much, that's why I don't think we need to fire Dubas for overpaying Marner. The lesson that I take from Ladd is the exact same that I take from the Blues winning a cup with 12m going to Steen and Bozak; that your cap doesn't have to be perfect. I wish we weren't overpaying Marner, but we deal with it the best we can and that really shouldn't be what holds us back.

I've always loved Uncle Leo. Was super sad to see him go. Much in the vein of Connor Brown as well, those are guys that we would absolutely love to have, and why the 40m to 4 players is a gamble that Dubas is ultimately hinging his career as Leafs GM on. I don't think Komarov is junk, but I use him again as an example of how the Islanders are far from maximizing their cap efficiency, which again is why I don't expect the same from Dubas. If there's a similar player available for 1m this summer, I hope Dubas goes out and gets him.

For points 3+4, I mean, it's ultimately what he's got to do. I don't really trust him either, but I also am not overly worried. I like the way that he built our defense, I hope he can do the same. And for what it's worth, I'm not really attached to him as GM either. I may seem like I'm in here defending him, and I suppose I am, but I can't say that I'd be too bothered if he was fired and we went in a different direction. Dubas has made moves that I've loved (Muzzin and Brodie, the draft) and made moves I've hated. Similarly, Lou made moves that I loved and moves that I hated. Dubas rebuilt a defense in two years that Lou never did here. Lou built a team in NY with heart that Dubas never did here. I see strengths and weaknesses in both GM's and wish we could combine the two.

 

[Cams]

Tavares and John Carlson were the two big ticket UFAs in 2018.

Leafs had ZERO need for a C when they already had Matthews and Kadri. ESPECIALLY not an $11m boat anchor like Tavares.

MUCH more pressing need was for a #1D like Carlson. THAT’S where the Tavares money should have gone.

That was a no-brainer now and it was a no-brainer then too.

It was that easy? Do you have an inside source that Carlson wanted to leave Washington and come to TO? Could've/would've/should've is pretty easy to play hindsight isn't it.

 

[Suntouchable13]

He's learned and started adding toughness last year. I bet we'll be adding more this offseason. His first year on the job and "our pp will be our enforcer" mindset was extremely naive though.

I don’t think it’s going to matter. Shuffling around more bottom 6 guys won’t make a difference. Adding another Simmonds or Thornton is meaningless. You need toughness and grit out of your core.

 

[AllDay28]

I completely forgot Lou traded Devon Toews. Which looks like a horrendous deal.

 

[Lauro]

Maybe he would have been able to sign that great coach to Toronto. Other than that, there is nothing he has done better than Dubas. Don't miss him at all, but good for him that he has that much success on the Island.

 

[sparxx87]

I'm really not worried about Ladd and what I keep trying to argue with other posters in this thread is that because Ladd doesn't matter that much, that's why I don't think we need to fire Dubas for overpaying Marner. The lesson that I take from Ladd is the exact same that I take from the Blues winning a cup with 12m going to Steen and Bozak; that your cap doesn't have to be perfect. I wish we weren't overpaying Marner, but we deal with it the best we can and that really shouldn't be what holds us back.

I've always loved Uncle Leo. Was super sad to see him go. Much in the vein of Connor Brown as well, those are guys that we would absolutely love to have, and why the 40m to 4 players is a gamble that Dubas is ultimately hinging his career as Leafs GM on. I don't think Komarov is junk, but I use him again as an example of how the Islanders are far from maximizing their cap efficiency, which again is why I don't expect the same from Dubas. If there's a similar player available for 1m this summer, I hope Dubas goes out and gets him.

For points 3+4, I mean, it's ultimately what he's got to do. I don't really trust him either, but I also am not overly worried. I like the way that he built our defense, I hope he can do the same. And for what it's worth, I'm not really attached to him as GM either. I may seem like I'm in here defending him, and I suppose I am, but I can't say that I'd be too bothered if he was fired and we went in a different direction. Dubas has made moves that I've loved (Muzzin and Brodie, the draft) and made moves I've hated. Similarly, Lou made moves that I loved and moves that I hated. Dubas rebuilt a defense in two years that Lou never did here. Lou built a team in NY with heart that Dubas never did here. I see strengths and weaknesses in both GM's and wish we could combine the two.

I agree on most of this as well. One thing I might differ from some is the cause of this being the JT signing, not as much about the Marner deal ($2M extra to Marner isn’t what kills this)

I agree, that’s a really attractive FA, but the one instance I would pass is when I already have a 21 year old franchise centre and 3 important RFA’s coming out.

I don’t want to see Marner traded, but now they’re at a point where that might be the best solution to restructure the team. I think this was all avoidable so it’s pretty disappointing to be here having these conversations today.

 

[LeafGrief]

Worked for Tampa because of the performance of their core players in the playoffs and they had cap space and assets to add at the TDL. Vassy, Hedman, Point and Kutcherov were elite and the rest pulled their weight and more. Sure if our core play up to their pay grades and Dubas can surround them with similar players to Tampa's, it could work here but Dubas has his hands full when not only are you looking to find replacements for Hyman (probably), Jumbo, Kerfoot, Simmonds, you should also replace Mikheyev and Engval. The fact that you also do not have a true #1 goalie doesn't help.

The only important thing in the entire post is that the core pulled their weight in the playoffs. We spent a first round draft pick and added depth at F, D, and G before the playoffs this year. Our top guys sucked in the playoffs this year (Nylander was good tho). Nothing else implies that turnover is a bad thing, which is what I was pointing out.

I'll agree with anyone and everyone all day that we lost in the playoffs this year because our top players, Marner and then Matthews (to a much lesser extent, IMO) sucked. Easy peasy, I'm happy to call it a day right there. You get 1 goal from 22m in forwards, that alone is more than enough narrative for me to blast the players. They didn't have the killer instinct, they didn't get it done, they choked in an astounding fashion. Boom, done and dusted.

I don't want to extrapolate that into weird theories about how the GM signing dudes to big contracts caused the roster turnover that sunk us. That's just weird. The Leafs have choked in the playoffs three years in a row, that's not a roster turnover issue. That's a "these guys have the mental fortitude of tissue paper" issue. Roster turnover happens to every team in the league. Hopefully we can manage to get good players to replace our old players this summer. That entire issue is pretty much completely irrelevant compared to whether or not Marner can pull his head out of his ass in the playoffs next year. The entire issue is pretty much irrelevant compared to whether the Leafs as a whole can stop playing like they're already dead in elimination games.

Ultimately, the four dudes making 40m might be the bet that cost this core its chance. Dunno, hope not, but that might be the case. To me, I think that's where Dubas lives or dies and so far it's not looking good. But I think there's just wayyyyyyyyyy to much other weird stuff going on in this thread and that's why I'm taking a defensive stance. I don't like the weird stuff.

 

[Kurtz]

I don’t think it’s going to matter. Shuffling around more bottom 6 guys won’t make a difference. Adding another Simmonds or Thornton is meaningless. You need toughness and grit out of your core.

Well, I'd like to see us add effective toughness before we make that judgement. That's not Thorton, Vescey, etc, and unfortunately that's probably not Simmonds anymore.


Tampa Bay also had a soft core. Stamkos, Kucherov, Point and Hedman are not known for their physicality. But Tampa augmented their core with guys like Coleman, Goodrow and Maroon, and the rest is history. I don't see why we can't do the same.

 

[Gallagbi]

Well, I'd like to see us add effective toughness before we make that judgement. That's not Thorton, Vescey, etc, and unfortunately that's probably not Simmonds anymore.


Tampa Bay also had a soft core. Stamkos, Kucherov, Point and Hedman are not known for their physicality. But Tampa augmented their core with guys like Coleman, Goodrow and Maroon, and the rest is history. I don't see why we can't do the same.

I'd be starting with Cizikas and Goodrow ideally for our bottom 6.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

He praised accountability for so long, that he forgot it himself. Those mind games don't work on this age anymore.

Letting them do whatever the hell they want doesn't seem to be working too well either.