We didn’t know what we had

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Kadri, Sparks, Ceci, Barrie, Jumbo, Boyd, Vesey, Simmonds, Barabanov, Lehtonen, Hutchinson, Clifford, Nash, Rittich, Malgin, Marchment, Agostino ...

The one list is much bigger than the other....too bad people who back Duby will say they were "lottery tickets for the most part" and "What did you expect from cheap UFA's" ...even though that is exactly where Duby said he would excel at...low priced UFA's to supplement the big 4.

Look, we don't have a team if 35% of it gets rotated every year...there is no continuity in that and it shows...people who sign up for the Leafs know they can walk after a year or so and don't really care too much..that has to be factored into the equation.

 

[Superstar]

I don't understand what people think Lou would have done so much differently/better. We'd probably just have overpaid bad players instead of overpaid good players.

He's a Hall of Famer, has won 3 Cups, and look where the Isles are since he took over...compare that to Dubas.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

And to add to the AAV we didn’t even get those extra years.

The fact that we didn't get the extra years is what pissed me off more than the actual AAV. Dubas wanted to be fair to them I guess....so does that mean he isn't fair to the rest of the guys playing for peanuts? So it seems...so it seems.

 

[sparxx87]

The Islanders have 7.5m in cap dedicated to Komarov and Ladd. Komarov is still an NHL’er, but that 6m in wasted cap is plenty equivalent to the overpays that we have on our top guys.

Bitching about the contracts is fair enough, but pointing to the Islanders as if they’re anything other than a cap shitshow is laughable. The Islanders are a lesson in team commitment and buy in. They’d be absolutely unstoppable if their cap wasn’t wasted on a bunch of junk.

The lesson can be that you need more heart and physicality in the bottom six. The lesson can be that depth reigns. The lesson is absolutely not that overpaying stars is bad, because the Islanders are overpaying bad players instead. If you’re trying to sell that as somehow better, go away

Read your last paragraph aloud, particularly the first sentence. Consider what heart and other intangibles can factor into success.. Now, imagine the players you call bad, are players they see these as good, with good qualities that they like. Can you understand why they’d be willing to pay a premium for them?

Stop looking at the numbers and look at how a player impacts a team and those around him.

 

[Donnie740]

The Islanders have 7.5m in cap dedicated to Komarov and Ladd. Komarov is still an NHL’er, but that 6m in wasted cap is plenty equivalent to the overpays that we have on our top guys.

Bitching about the contracts is fair enough, but pointing to the Islanders as if they’re anything other than a cap shitshow is laughable. The Islanders are a lesson in team commitment and buy in. They’d be absolutely unstoppable if their cap wasn’t wasted on a bunch of junk.

The lesson can be that you need more heart and physicality in the bottom six. The lesson can be that depth reigns. The lesson is absolutely not that overpaying stars is bad, because the Islanders are overpaying bad players instead. If you’re trying to sell that as somehow better, go away

Check your facts, Boyo.

Lamoriello wasn’t even with the Islanders when they gave Ladd that boat anchor contract.

Spouting off when you don’t have the slightest idea - - that’s so Dubas.

 

[gordonhught]

If Lou was in charge, Leafs would be in the semi finals.

guy knows how to run a hockey club

 

[deprw]

"abusive". He shared a "work ethic" list for christ sake. "Abusive". Good christ the world has gotten soft.

And yeah... our core were teenagers at the time facing elite teams. Now they're in their primes and are losing to (lol) Columbus and Montreal.

He was abusive person and it's not just that list. Babcock was also stubborn to the point, that seemed like he wanted to end Jason Spezza's career and see how it went after he left. Spezza has been important glue guy. If Keefe was stubborn to keep Marner and Matthews together in this year playoffs. Babcock was stubborn enough not to play our two best players together for years.

He praised accountability for so long, that he forgot it himself. Those mind games don't work on this age anymore.

 

[hamzarocks]

If Lou was in charge, Leafs would be in the semi finals.

guy knows how to run a hockey club

Maybe so. Hard to say this team was born to choke so don't know if Lou could fix that.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The Islanders have 7.5m in cap dedicated to Komarov and Ladd. Komarov is still an NHL’er, but that 6m in wasted cap is plenty equivalent to the overpays that we have on our top guys.

Bitching about the contracts is fair enough, but pointing to the Islanders as if they’re anything other than a cap shitshow is laughable. The Islanders are a lesson in team commitment and buy in. They’d be absolutely unstoppable if their cap wasn’t wasted on a bunch of junk.

The lesson can be that you need more heart and physicality in the bottom six. The lesson can be that depth reigns. The lesson is absolutely not that overpaying stars is bad, because the Islanders are overpaying bad players instead. If you’re trying to sell that as somehow better, go away

Lou didn't sign Ladd to that contract...that was Garth who did the deed.. Why Lou needs to be perfect to be better at being a GM compared to Dubas is very odd. Not everything Lou did was great (Marleau) but at the same time...Dubas has many more things he did wrong and his fan boys don't want to even admit it.

 

[LeafGrief]

Read your last paragraph aloud, particularly the first sentence. Consider what heart and other intangibles can factor into success.. Now, imagine the players you call bad, are players they see these as good, with good qualities that they like. Can you understand why they’d be willing to pay a premium for them?

Stop looking at the numbers and look at how a player impacts a team and those around him.

Andrew Ladd has a 4.4m cap hit to sit on the taxi squad.

I am completely fine with understanding intangibles. Frankly, I'm on board with overpaying guys who bring the heart, grit and fire that a team needs. But I cannot take you seriously if you're going to try and tell me that 4.4m, nearly 5% of the cap, is worth it for a guy to eat popcorn the entire year. The job of the GM is to balance all of these factors and I understand there are lessons to be learned from the Islanders but I need you to understand that they do things wrong as well and where that tempers expectations for our own team. Specifically, I am choosing to point out that Dubas overpaying our top guys a several million bucks, (however you want to divide that up, into who's overpaid by what doesn't matter) is comparable to the wasted cap on a guy in the pressbox and 3m for a heart and soul guy. If you want to argue that the Leafs need more heart and grit like the Islanders, sure I'm down with that. But if you want to argue that Dubas irreversibly f***ed us up by overpaying Marner then I have to point out that 4.4m to a guy sitting in the pressbox is inarguably worse. I don't know your specific stance on Marner or our other guy's contracts, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth there, I'm just using "you" to refer to the intent of my original post.

Dubas learned how to be a GM from Lou, which is something that is so apparent to me in so many of his moves and it's bizarre that so many here don't see that. Going out and trading a 1st for Foligno is literally exactly what you're describing here and it's a move that I liked (and still do tbh). Filling the bottom of the roster with guys like Simmonds, Spezza, and Thornton is far closer to a Lou strategy than the old Dubas method of filling up on Petan, Aberg, and Ennis. Dubas is at least trying to replicate some of those lessons that he learned from Lou. Maybe the ultimate lesson will be that we cannot afford 40m to four star forwards and we need more intangibles from the bottom six, but Dubas literally has been trying to fit those intangibles in where he can. I can see why the Islanders are willing to pay a premium and maybe we'll need to replicate that eventually, but please also understand that paying premiums obviously has limits to where it is worth it. 4.4m to a guy in the pressbox isn't worth it, perhaps in the way that overpaying a star winger 11m isn't worth it.

The Islanders are an interesting team which is why they must be studied carefully, and not taken as a straight up template.

 

[ToneDog]

The one list is much bigger than the other....too bad people who back Duby will say they were "lottery tickets for the most part" and "What did you expect from cheap UFA's" ...even though that is exactly where Duby said he would excel at...low priced UFA's to supplement the big 4.

Look, we don't have a team if 35% of it gets rotated every year...there is no continuity in that and it shows...people who sign up for the Leafs know they can walk after a year or so and don't really care too much..that has to be factored into the equation.

Sadly that is what you are left with when 50% of the cap goes to 4 forwards that have not proven they can do it. This year it is worse because we probably throw Hyman. Kerfoot and Andersen overboard and look for cheaper options while team below us close the gap.

 

[Donnie740]

He's a Hall of Famer, has won 3 Cups, and look where the Isles are since he took over...compare that to Dubas.

I can’t understand why the Dubas Fanboi Club continues to embarrass themselves by trying to compare their hero to Lamoriello.

Even if you want to ignore the fact that he’s built THREE (3) cup winners and us in the Hall of Fame just look at their recent performance:

NYI have clearly improved since Lamoriello took over.

Leafs have clearly regressed since Lamoriello left and Dubas took over.

Lamoriello’s team continues to march through the playoffs to the final four again.

Dubas’s team flops in the first round AGAIN - - and this time with the most humiliating playoff collapse in franchise history.

 

[deprw]

Fair enough. I don’t entirely agree, but not unreasonable.

...but let me ask you: If you could take this team in shambles in 10 years, but they won 2 of the next 6 Stanley Cups, would you take it?

Long term sustainability is certainly a question mark, but it’s hard to argue with his short term results when he has the talent to build around.

We rebuilt properly, if MNM wouldn't have been so good so early I think we could have stocked cup boards with assets from Bozak, JVR and Gardiner. So our goal should be sustainability and long cup window. Now and then you can empty your draft picks for cup run, like we did this year. It was calculated risk, but since we have cost controlled assets in Robertson, Sandin and Liljegren we could afford it. Do I hate losing that 1st round draft pick for Foligno. Yeah, but I was behind back then when it happened, so can't complain.

Would I take nine years out of playoffs and one Stanley Cup. Yeah, any day and twice on sunday.

I think those hard questions about this team has to be asked next summer. We can do big changes now, but I think we don't have to. Off course It relies lot on the players and the staff. Marner can be cocky in front of media, but how he takes this behind the doors. What Matthews thinks and how Keefe reflects his coaching. If this team isn't ready in the start of the season and really on the mission. Do big changes then. I think that should be the goal for next season. Prove it, earn the respect. If they think they're there already, then do something drastic. Matthews should be like, f*** the Rocket I want to win the Stanley Cup.

In any case, if we change GM after this season, or next or year after that. We have system in place (scouting is solid etc.), all our main assets have value and are tradeable. No anchor contracts. If we don't trade all our draft picks for 2022 we can retool and maybe go for one time push or something. Then target McDavid in long run or something.

What ever happens in two years. We are there to contend in some way, if we want to. Islanders has some anchor contracts and have to do big decisions on Barzal etc.

 

[LeafGrief]

Lou didn't sign Ladd to that contract...that was Garth who did the deed.. Why Lou needs to be perfect to be better at being a GM compared to Dubas is very odd. Not everything Lou did was great (Marleau) but at the same time...Dubas has many more things he did wrong and his fan boys don't want to even admit it.

Check your facts, Boyo.

Lamoriello wasn’t even with the Islanders when they gave Ladd that boat anchor contract.

Spouting off when you don’t have the slightest idea - - that’s so Dubas.

I'll address you both because you both made the same mistake when reading my post. I know that Lou didn't sign Ladd to that contract. Notice that I didn't blame him for that, the word "Lou" wasn't even in the friggin post. What IS important is that the Islanders paid Ladd 4.4m to sit in the pressbox eating popcorn this year. What does that tell you about cap management? Does it maybe tell you that an overpaid player on your roster isn't the end of the goddamn world? Because that's what it should tell you.

Go ahead and complain about Marner's contract if you want. I do too. But what the Islanders teach you is that you don't have to be literally perfect in your cap management to be a successful hockey team. Would you rather have Marner making 8m and Ladd taking 4m off your cap to sit in the taxi squad, or would you rather have Marner making 11m? The answer is that it honestly doesn't f***ing matter at the end of the day because you've got similar dead cap which effects the rest of your roster in the same way.

I have no problem pointing out Dubas's mistakes and holding him accountable for them. The Marner contract is an obvious example. But I'm not going to look at the Islanders as if they're a template that should be followed because they've got loads of dead cap. Marner's cap hit isn't worse than Ladd's, so therefore the Leafs have to suck for a reason other than Marner's contract. It's really that simple guys, the Leafs keep losing in the playoffs because Marner is a headcase, not because he's overpaid.

f***'s sake.

 

[ACC1224]

Never understood why people need to put down what Lou Lam has done as a way of propping up Dubas and his failings. It really looks dumber and dumber with each passing series win.

 

[Donnie740]

Andrew Ladd has a 4.4m cap hit to sit on the taxi squad.

I am completely fine with understanding intangibles. Frankly, I'm on board with overpaying guys who bring the heart, grit and fire that a team needs. But I cannot take you seriously if you're going to try and tell me that 4.4m, nearly 5% of the cap, is worth it for a guy to eat popcorn the entire year. The job of the GM is to balance all of these factors and I understand there are lessons to be learned from the Islanders but I need you to understand that they do things wrong as well and where that tempers expectations for our own team. Specifically, I am choosing to point out that Dubas overpaying our top guys a several million bucks, (however you want to divide that up, into who's overpaid by what doesn't matter) is comparable to the wasted cap on a guy in the pressbox and 3m for a heart and soul guy. If you want to argue that the Leafs need more heart and grit like the Islanders, sure I'm down with that. But if you want to argue that Dubas irreversibly f***ed us up by overpaying Marner then I have to point out that 4.4m to a guy sitting in the pressbox is inarguably worse. I don't know your specific stance on Marner or our other guy's contracts, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth there, I'm just using "you" to refer to the intent of my original post.

Dubas learned how to be a GM from Lou, which is something that is so apparent to me in so many of his moves and it's bizarre that so many here don't see that. Going out and trading a 1st for Foligno is literally exactly what you're describing here and it's a move that I liked (and still do tbh). Filling the bottom of the roster with guys like Simmonds, Spezza, and Thornton is far closer to a Lou strategy than the old Dubas method of filling up on Petan, Aberg, and Ennis. Dubas is at least trying to replicate some of those lessons that he learned from Lou. Maybe the ultimate lesson will be that we cannot afford 40m to four star forwards and we need more intangibles from the bottom six, but Dubas literally has been trying to fit those intangibles in where he can. I can see why the Islanders are willing to pay a premium and maybe we'll need to replicate that eventually, but please also understand that paying premiums obviously has limits to where it is worth it. 4.4m to a guy in the pressbox isn't worth it, perhaps in the way that overpaying a star winger 11m isn't worth it.

The Islanders are an interesting team which is why they must be studied carefully, and not taken as a straight up template.

Do you not realize that Lamoriello wasn’t even with the Islanders in any capacity when they signed Andrew Ladd?

You’re making a total jackass of yourself trying so desperately to blame Lamoriello for the Ladd deal.

Or do you feel it would be much better for the Islanders to waste a 1st round pick to convince some other team to take Ladd?

 

[AllDay28]

Never understood why people need to put down what Lou Lam has done as a way of propping up Dubas and his failings. It really looks dumber and dumber with each passing series win.

Ya like trading Brown to get rid of Zeitsev (Lou) or giving up a 1st to Carolina to get rid of Marleau (Lou)

but I’m just a Dubas fan boy. What do I know.

 

[LeafGrief]

Sadly that is what you are left with when 50% of the cap goes to 4 forwards that have not proven they can do it. This year it is worse because we probably throw Hyman. Kerfoot and Andersen overboard and look for cheaper options while team below us close the gap.

When the Lightning were swept by Columbus they had; JT Miller, Adam Erne, Ryan Callahan, Dan Girardi, and Anton Stralman.
When they won the cup a year later they had added; Kevin Shattenkirk, Pat Maroon, Carter Verhaeghe, Barclay Goodrow, Zach Bogosian, and Blake Coleman.

And then there's the edge of the roster stuff like Koekoek, McBackup, Schenn, and all the other depth.

Blaming roster turnover for the Leafs woes is hella weird.

 

[ACC1224]

Ya like trading Brown to get rid of Zeitsev (Lou) or giving up a 1st to Carolina to get rid of Marleau (Lou)

but I’m just a Dubas fan boy. What do I know.

Yes terrible Dubas deals particularly Marleau.

 

[LeafGrief]

Do you not realize that Lamoriello wasn’t even with the Islanders in any capacity when they signed Andrew Ladd?

You’re making a total jackass of yourself trying so desperately to blame Lamoriello for the Ladd deal.

Or do you feel it would be much better for the Islanders to waste a 1st round pick to convince some other team to take Ladd?

Dude read the f***ing post before you reply to it, holy shit.

 

[Donnie740]

I'll address you both because you both made the same mistake when reading my post. I know that Lou didn't sign Ladd to that contract. Notice that I didn't blame him for that, the word "Lou" wasn't even in the friggin post. What IS important is that the Islanders paid Ladd 4.4m to sit in the pressbox eating popcorn this year. What does that tell you about cap management? Does it maybe tell you that an overpaid player on your roster isn't the end of the goddamn world? Because that's what it should tell you.

Go ahead and complain about Marner's contract if you want. I do too. But what the Islanders teach you is that you don't have to be literally perfect in your cap management to be a successful hockey team. Would you rather have Marner making 8m and Ladd taking 4m off your cap to sit in the taxi squad, or would you rather have Marner making 11m? The answer is that it honestly doesn't f***ing matter at the end of the day because you've got similar dead cap which effects the rest of your roster in the same way.

I have no problem pointing out Dubas's mistakes and holding him accountable for them. The Marner contract is an obvious example. But I'm not going to look at the Islanders as if they're a template that should be followed because they've got loads of dead cap. Marner's cap hit isn't worse than Ladd's, so therefore the Leafs have to suck for a reason other than Marner's contract. It's really that simple guys, the Leafs keep losing in the playoffs because Marner is a headcase, not because he's overpaid.

f***'s sake.

Dubas is the one responsible for overpaying Marner. Lamoriello had absolutely NOTHING to do with overpaying Ladd.
A $10.5m boat anchor is WORSE for the cap than a $4.4m boat anchor.

By sitting in the press box eating popcorn, Ladd contributes ZERO but he also can’t do anything dumb to hurt his team - - like take asinine delay of game penalties that lead to PP goals or cough up brutal turnovers that lead to series clinching goals.

Maybe the Leafs would have beaten Montreal if Marner had been in the press box nibbling on popcorn too?

 

[AllDay28]

No one can win with 4 players making 50% of the cap…

penguins 16/17 (cup winners)
Cap: 73.1
Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Flower = 45%

leafs 20/21
Cap: 84.1
Matthews / Marner / Nylander / Tavares = 48%

 

[Garthinater]

Ya like trading Brown to get rid of Zeitsev (Lou) or giving up a 1st to Carolina to get rid of Marleau (Lou)

but I’m just a Dubas fan boy. What do I know.

You clearly are just a fan boy.

Those were terrible trades! Dubas throws 1st round picks around like candy.

 

[Garthinater]

No one can win with 4 players making 50% of the cap…

penguins 16/17 (cup winners)
Cap: 73.1
Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Flower = 45%

leafs 20/21
Cap: 84.1
Matthews / Marner / Nylander / Tavares = 48%

*4 forwards.

No team has won with 50% of their cap tied in 4 forwards.

Yet stats nerd Kyle dubas couldn't figure that out lmao

 

[sparxx87]

Andrew Ladd has a 4.4m cap hit to sit on the taxi squad.

I am completely fine with understanding intangibles. Frankly, I'm on board with overpaying guys who bring the heart, grit and fire that a team needs. But I cannot take you seriously if you're going to try and tell me that 4.4m, nearly 5% of the cap, is worth it for a guy to eat popcorn the entire year. The job of the GM is to balance all of these factors and I understand there are lessons to be learned from the Islanders but I need you to understand that they do things wrong as well and where that tempers expectations for our own team. Specifically, I am choosing to point out that Dubas overpaying our top guys a several million bucks, (however you want to divide that up, into who's overpaid by what doesn't matter) is comparable to the wasted cap on a guy in the pressbox and 3m for a heart and soul guy. If you want to argue that the Leafs need more heart and grit like the Islanders, sure I'm down with that. But if you want to argue that Dubas irreversibly f***ed us up by overpaying Marner then I have to point out that 4.4m to a guy sitting in the pressbox is inarguably worse. I don't know your specific stance on Marner or our other guy's contracts, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth there, I'm just using "you" to refer to the intent of my original post.

Dubas learned how to be a GM from Lou, which is something that is so apparent to me in so many of his moves and it's bizarre that so many here don't see that. Going out and trading a 1st for Foligno is literally exactly what you're describing here and it's a move that I liked (and still do tbh). Filling the bottom of the roster with guys like Simmonds, Spezza, and Thornton is far closer to a Lou strategy than the old Dubas method of filling up on Petan, Aberg, and Ennis. Dubas is at least trying to replicate some of those lessons that he learned from Lou. Maybe the ultimate lesson will be that we cannot afford 40m to four star forwards and we need more intangibles from the bottom six, but Dubas literally has been trying to fit those intangibles in where he can. I can see why the Islanders are willing to pay a premium and maybe we'll need to replicate that eventually, but please also understand that paying premiums obviously has limits to where it is worth it. 4.4m to a guy in the pressbox isn't worth it, perhaps in the way that overpaying a star winger 11m isn't worth it.

The Islanders are an interesting team which is why they must be studied carefully, and not taken as a straight up template.

A lot of good stuff here, and I agree with most of it.

1. Lou wanted to move Ladd, a contract he didn’t sign, but the price didn’t make sense. He instead swapped his 5 D man who had a rough playoff for futures. We don’t know what else was on the table, but this seems like a reasonable solution to the problem given your current defense group.

2. Komorov, for example, is $3M junk to you. To them, he’s a unique player with leadership qualities that embodies the culture they want to live by. Can play anywhere in the lineup and near the top of the depth chart it high leverage defensive situations. This is a value ale player to them although I agree, a little to pricey for me. He slots better on a 3rd or 4th line but still, looks pretty good on the top line with Barzal and Eberle. A player that can do all these things is a nice luxury to have.

3. Brisebois spent 9 years under Yzerman. Dubas needed more time and guidance if he was to be a serious candidate. I can see logic in some of his moves, but he seems very out of touch in others.

4. The template is easy. Finding the right players for each specific role is the hard part. That’s where I really don’t trust Dubas.

 

[Donnie740]

but I’m just a Dubas fan boy. What do I know.

Not much, that’s what.

As evidenced by your repeated guarantees when the series was 3-1 that Toronto would absolutely beat Montreal.