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ER89 said:
So you think being nice is weak or capitulating?
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P.S. I don't think Kyle Dubas is a nice guy either.
 
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sparxx87 said:
Interesting that this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of a coach doing it. It’s happened in football before, I know this for fact.

The correct response from Mitch (one of the leaders) was to point at himself, and all the things he could do to make himself and teammates better. This is meant to make Mitch understand as an elite talent, how much he can impact those around him.

Mitch failed, and started calling out teammates.

Ouch.
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It’s not really defensible. It was a bad decision by Babcock.

But, it’s not something that you can’t recover from if both guys are mature enough to understand it was a mistake, apologies go around, and it doesn’t repeat.
 
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Menzinger said:
There's been reports that it's a bit more complicated than that. Matt Martin seemed to see things a bit differently

Islanders: Matt Martin Defends Mitch Marner Against Mike Babcock

There's obviously still a lack of clarity about the whole situation, but there certainly seemed seemed to be a tense atmosphere behind the scenes with the team for a while
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Yeah, it's largely speculation on all accounts.

My guess is Babcock lost the core players because he was trying to enforce team-play that would succeed in the playoffs. The core players wanted a style where they could pad their stats.

Look at the usage he gave our core players. Then look at just how much it changed the day Keefe took over.

The core players "won" the battle, and we now have a history is written by the victors situation regarding Babcock.
 
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Trapper said:
Do you think Dubas was pressured to add pieces like Simmonds, Thornton, Bogo?

None of his draft picks even remotely resemble these players and before that it was the Petans, Malgins, etc.
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Couldn’t afford some real workers, had to go to the scab market to try and get some “grit.” Bogo was worth worth his contract, the other two........not so much......
 
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I am Canadian said:
Dubas gets all the shit for having to trade a 1st to get rid of Marleau.

Will never forgive that stupid deal. Just sign Marleau for 9M x 2 rather than 6.25Mx3.

Who gives a shit if the league doesn't like it. Literally no reason to give him a 3rd year if he wasn't intending on being here for 3
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He traded the first why wouldn’t he be accountable for that?
Would it really have been so terrible to have Marleau on the 4th line with minimum ice for the last year?
 
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Dreakmur said:
It’s not really defensible. It was a bad decision by Babcock.

But, it’s not something that you can’t recover from if both guys are mature enough to understand it was a mistake, apologies go around, and it doesn’t repeat.
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I agree. I don’t like it, I just don’t think it’s nearly the issue some have made it out to be.

Abusive? Nah. He tried some shady tactic to try to get something to click, and it backfired.

Apparently he apologized right after.. I’m good with that. Not a big deal.
 
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Pookie said:
If you had your head in the sand to the drug issues... yeah, I guess you'd agree with that.

Lou and Babcock were recruited to come here to create a culture that would foster development.
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"Abusive coach" :laugh::laugh:

The young core is just a spoiled bunch who got payed without deserving it. Face reality Twitter. Keefe apparently can't motivate them, Babcock couldn't.. would the most sweetheart, softest coach alive be able to motivate them? Would Torts?
 
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sparxx87 said:
I agree. I don’t like it, I just don’t think it’s nearly the issue some have made it out to be.

Abusive? Nah. He tried some shady tactic to try to get something to click, and it backfired.

Apparently he apologized right after.. I’m good with that. Not a big deal.
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In a season, a coach is going to have a thousand interactions with each player. Even at a 99% rate, that means the coach makes a mistake 10 times with every player every year.

You could only be called naïve if you didn't think every coach walked away from a player and though "uh oh, I shouldn't have said that" at least a few times every year.
 
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I'm not so keen on defending Babcock's head games to dunk on Dubas. But competitive sports is harsh dog eat dog environment, I'm sure all sorts of ugly garbage goes on behind the scenes of every championship team. Not every individual in that dressing room is a fantastic human being, probably few of them are. These are individuals who were the best player on their teams until they reached the pros. You think they haven't been treated like royalty and allowed to get away mean crap in their past?

Pro coaches play head games with their players to motivate the different types of personalities. This isn't the no bully environment of Ms. Flatbottom's homeroom.
 
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justashadowof said:
Pro coaches play head games with their players to motivate the different types of personalities. This isn't the no bully environment of Ms. Flatbottom's homeroom.
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As a long-time coach, I'm not sure I'd call them head games. If I have 20 players to deal with, I need to figure out how to best deal with each of them. No player needs the same coaching, but it takes time and trial and error to figure out what each player needs.... and honestly, there have been a lot of players that I never did figure them out.
 
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justashadowof said:
I'm not so keen on defending Babcock's head games to dunk on Dubas. But competitive sports is harsh dog eat dog environment, I'm sure all sorts of ugly garbage goes on behind the scenes of every championship team. Not every individual in that dressing room is a fantastic human being, probably few of them are. These are individuals who were the best player on their teams until they reached the pros. You think they haven't been treated like royalty and allowed to get away mean crap in their past?

Pro coaches play head games with their players to motivate the different types of personalities. This isn't the no bully environment of Ms. Flatbottom's homeroom.
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When "who's the hardest worker lists" are enough to deeply upset members of the Leafs locker room like it supposedly did, I guess we really shouldn't be surprised that the core also don't have the intestinal fortitude to close out a first round/play-in series against weak opponents.

Actually, this is starting to make a lot of sense now..
 
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sparxx87 said:
As it pertains to the current situation, yeah, you might be right.

..but big picture, you get what I’m saying, right?
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A bit, but ultimately the team is setup to live and die on the core. There will be pieces that move, ideally filled internally or through good value UFAs. The structure isn't the issue for me, the lack of production from those were counting on are.

Our depth was really solid this playoffs for the most part
 
Not My Tempo said:
Seriously, what was fair value for the contacts?

Matthews - maybe 10.5 x 8?

Marner - 9 x 8?

Nylander - 6.5 x 6?

In terms of AAV, we’re probably looking at like 3 Mil in extra cap space. That’s like replacing Galchenyuk with Kapanen.

Regardless of what AAV the big guys were signed for, we weren’t gonna win a series with our two best players scoring 1 goal over 7 games. Colorados big guys are being shut down and they aren’t winning anymore. They have some of the best contracts in the league, but it doesn’t matter. Your stars need to produce
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And to add to the AAV we didn’t even get those extra years.
 
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Bomber0104 said:
When "who's the hardest worker lists" are enough to deeply upset members of the Leafs locker room like it supposedly did, I guess we really shouldn't be surprised that the core also don't have the intestinal fortitude to close out a first round/play-in series against weak opponents.

Actually, this is starting to make a lot of sense now..
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Lol, great post.
 
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Throw More Waffles said:
The players don't feel they deserve those contracts. They know they're overpaid. They just took advantage of a rookie weakling.
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Bullshit, you don't ask for the moon hoping to become the villain.

It's not fun to be overpaid and it's not fun to be hated. There's a reason Marner came out with a fluff PR piece within a few months of signing.

I think Matthews believes he's a top 3-5 player. I think Marner wanted people to consider him on that level. Now that they have it were watching Marner crumble under that pressure
 
Dreakmur said:
As a long-time coach, I'm not sure I'd call them head games. If I have 20 players to deal with, I need to figure out how to best deal with each of them. No player needs the same coaching, but it takes time and trial and error to figure out what each player needs.... and honestly, there have been a lot of players that I never did figure them out.
Click to expand...

True, I shouldn't have used "head games" there because it suggests every motivation technique is some sinister manipulation. Maybe you can comment on this: a talented cocky individual sometimes needs to be knocked down a peg for his own good. A little taste of failure or a little bit of social pressure in the dressing to give the individual a taste of humility can be a positive thing.
 
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