We didn’t know what we had

[deprw]

You’re right, it’s hard, but that’s why culture is so important in professional sports.

Lamoriello builds winning culture.

Not sure what to call this thing Dubas has built.

You can argue that Devils had no winning culture when he left and that organization is still in shambles. I can't see any sustainability in Islanders either, but only time will tell. Though if we'd win cup once I'd be happy, even if we go Raptors way after that.

Lamoriello made some mistakes even in here. Dubas had to pull many strings to get away from Marleau and Zaitsev.

I don't know what Dubas has built. I think our team this season was best we had since 2001-2002 and it has some internal growth left. Those veteran lineups tend to go downhill in some point. I think our problem is more mental rather than adding better players, if you analyze those sixth and seventh game against Canadiens. Players like Marner and Matthews should carry you trough 2020-2021 Montreal Canadiens.

 

[sparxx87]

You can argue that Devils had no winning culture when he left and that organization is still in shambles. I can't see any sustainability in Islanders either, but only time will tell. Though if we'd win cup once I'd be happy, even if we go Raptors way after that.

Lamoriello made some mistakes even in here. Dubas had to pull many strings to get away from Marleau and Zaitsev.

I don't know what Dubas has built. I think our team this season was best we had since 2001-2002 and it has some internal growth left. Those veteran lineups tend to go downhill in some point. I think our problem is more mental rather than adding better players, if you analyze those sixth and seventh game against Canadiens. Players like Marner and Matthews should carry you trough 2020-2021 Montreal Canadiens.

Devils had no talent when he left. That’s the natural life cycle of sport. Only team recently to beat the odds was the Red Wings... this is why you need to make the best of the opportunity in a short window. Matthews, Marner, Nylander + top 10 goalie (at the time) + top 10-15 d man is the foundation of a championship, but you only have a few years with the goalie.

No, rewind on Zaitsev and Marleau - what created the need to shed those salaries? Could it have been that the one who signed them had forecasted a $4.5M #2 C, and Dubas inserted an $11M one?

So many little things were wrong with the Montréal series. We could sit here for hours diagnosing them.

 

[Not My Tempo]

He would’ve made it work. Wouldn’t have got walked all over in contract negotiations by our gutless kids

Seriously, what was fair value for the contacts?

Matthews - maybe 10.5 x 8?

Marner - 9 x 8?

Nylander - 6.5 x 6?

In terms of AAV, we’re probably looking at like 3 Mil in extra cap space. That’s like replacing Galchenyuk with Kapanen.

Regardless of what AAV the big guys were signed for, we weren’t gonna win a series with our two best players scoring 1 goal over 7 games. Colorados big guys are being shut down and they aren’t winning anymore. They have some of the best contracts in the league, but it doesn’t matter. Your stars need to produce

 

[sparxx87]

Nah I personally don't buy it. Ujiri is a nice guy and he's a boss. The adage confuses nice for naivete.

Bobby Webster is the good cop. Masai is as tough as they come. Look at the DeRozan for Leonard trade - did he care about anyone’s feelings?

That’s why he is where he is.

 

[stickty111]

Pretty much

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Seriously, what was fair value for the contacts?

Matthews - maybe 10.5 x 8?

Marner - 9 x 8?

Nylander - 6.5 x 6?

In terms of AAV, we’re probably looking at like 3 Mil in extra cap space. That’s like replacing Galchenyuk with Kapanen.

Regardless of what AAV the big guys were signed for, we weren’t gonna win a series with our two best players scoring 1 goal over 7 games. Colorados big guys are being shut down and they aren’t winning anymore. They have some of the best contracts in the league, but it doesn’t matter. Your stars need to produce

Now alter Matthews and Marner's cap hits if it were 5/6 year terms. Getting closer to 6-7 mil of extra cap space.

 

[justashadowof]

Nah I personally don't buy it. Ujiri is a nice guy and he's a boss. The adage confuses nice for naivete.

In my definition of a nice guy, Ujiri isn't a nice guy. He is neither weak nor capitulating nor sycophantic. He's the opposite of all of that. He's a strong man who just knows how to speak to people ingratiatingly, positively and politely.

 

[deprw]

Devils had no talent when he left. That’s the natural life cycle of sport. Only team recently to beat the odds was the Red Wings... this is why you need to make the best of the opportunity in a short window. Matthews, Marner, Nylander + top 10 goalie (at the time) + top 10-15 d man is the foundation of a championship, but you only have a few years with the goalie.

No, rewind on Zaitsev and Marleau - what created the need to shed those salaries? Could it have been that the one who signed them had forecasted a $4.5M #2 C, and Dubas inserted an $11M one?

We had to shed those salaries, when their play didn't match the pay. Off course we can talk about John Tavares, but even if we had better contracts with Marner & Matthews, we needed to get rid of one at least. Those were bad contracts and something Lou has done before.

Problem with Lou was that he was too attached to Conte in Devils and their drafting was terrible year after year. That's not winning culture in todays game and something you can pin point as mistake of Lamoriello in Devils. He should have fixed that, but they overpaid veterans and traded away picks to that point that there was nothing left. He almost always lost key UFAs too, which didn't help. Andersen was never good in playoffs, but you can't blame Lou on that. Who knew back then, he was best option available.

He is HHOF GM and may add SC to his legacy in Islanders. Let's see. I think it was good signing back then to get Lou, but I wouldn't have built on him and it was right decision to let him go. I would have done one year extension back then, but it's gone now. At least Dubas wrote those checks for Matthews and Marner, so it's his fault if he can't succeed with that roster.

 

[Summer2009]

I give Dubas credit ... He seems like a very smart young man ... But honestly he is unqualified for a NHL GM position ... He is a politician and salesman and he sold all his nonsense to those that mattered ( MLSE - Shanahan ) . He is likely asking himself .." How much longer can I fool these guys ?"

Dubas is a real sweet talker all right and great at selling his shtick no matter how bad the results.

I do believe when fired he will enter politics and be the new Liberal rep,a perfect fit, for the Soo.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Pretty much

"abusive". He shared a "work ethic" list for christ sake. "Abusive". Good christ the world has gotten soft.

And yeah... our core were teenagers at the time facing elite teams. Now they're in their primes and are losing to (lol) Columbus and Montreal.

 

[sparxx87]

We had to shed those salaries, when their play didn't match the pay. Off course we can talk about John Tavares, but even if we had better contracts with Marner & Matthews, we needed to get rid of one at least. Those were bad contracts and something Lou has done before.

Problem with Lou was that he was too attached to Conte in Devils and their drafting was terrible year after year. That's not winning culture in todays game and something you can pin point as mistake of Lamoriello in Devils. He should have fixed that, but they overpaid veterans and traded away picks to that point that there was nothing left. He almost always lost key UFAs too, which didn't help. Andersen was never good in playoffs, but you can't blame Lou on that. Who knew back then, he was best option available.

He is HHOF GM and may add SC to his legacy in Islanders. Let's see. I think it was good signing back then to get Lou, but I wouldn't have built on him and it was right decision to let him go. I would have done one year extension back then, but it's gone now. At least Dubas wrote those checks for Matthews and Marner, so it's his fault if he can't succeed with that roster.

Fair enough. I don’t entirely agree, but not unreasonable.

...but let me ask you: If you could take this team in shambles in 10 years, but they won 2 of the next 6 Stanley Cups, would you take it?

Long term sustainability is certainly a question mark, but it’s hard to argue with his short term results when he has the talent to build around.

 

[I am Canadian]

Dubas gets all the shit for having to trade a 1st to get rid of Marleau.

Will never forgive that stupid deal. Just sign Marleau for 9M x 2 rather than 6.25Mx3.

Who gives a shit if the league doesn't like it. Literally no reason to give him a 3rd year if he wasn't intending on being here for 3

 

[Dreakmur]

"abusive". He shared a "work ethic" list for christ sake. "Abusive". Good christ the world has gotten soft.

And yeah... our core were teenagers at the time facing elite teams. Now they're in their primes and are losing to (lol) Columbus and Montreal.

All stems from a pampered society that doesn’t even know what real abuse is.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

All stems from a pampered society that doesn’t even know what real abuse is.

Apparently it's a coach being "meanie-means" to adult millionaire athletes.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Now alter Matthews and Marner's cap hits if it were 5/6 year terms. Getting closer to 6-7 mil of extra cap space.

Yea I agree with that, but at the time everyone wanted 8 year deals for those two so I was going off of that.

Hell if we bridges them with 3 year deals we could have gotten even more, but I guess people were worried about them leaving in FA quicker.

I do think we need to trade Marner though. I don’t think he provides that much more value than 7M + 4M players do

 

[Donnie740]

You mean Pietrangelo? It's one option to wait for that opportunity and it might not come. Tavares was there then. You can't count on that either, because that was rare case franchise player leaving in his prime.

It's easy to be captain hindsight in this.

Tavares and John Carlson were the two big ticket UFAs in 2018.

Leafs had ZERO need for a C when they already had Matthews and Kadri. ESPECIALLY not an $11m boat anchor like Tavares.

MUCH more pressing need was for a #1D like Carlson. THAT’S where the Tavares money should have gone.

That was a no-brainer now and it was a no-brainer then too.

 

[sparxx87]

"abusive". He shared a "work ethic" list for christ sake. "Abusive". Good christ the world has gotten soft.

And yeah... our core were teenagers at the time facing elite teams. Now they're in their primes and are losing to (lol) Columbus and Montreal.

Interesting that this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of a coach doing it. It’s happened in football before, I know this for fact.

The correct response from Mitch (one of the leaders) was to point at himself, and all the things he could do to make himself and teammates better. This is meant to make Mitch understand as an elite talent, how much he can impact those around him.

Mitch failed, and started calling out teammates.

Ouch.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

-Losing in Round 1 ( Again)
-No draft picks
-Salary Cap Hell

What's good about that ?

Brodie, Holl, Spezza, Muzzin, Campbell etc.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yea I agree with that, but at the time everyone wanted 8 year deals for those two so I was going off of that.

Hell if we bridges them with 3 year deals we could have gotten even more, but I guess people were worried about them leaving in FA quicker.

I do think we need to trade Marner though. I don’t think he provides that much more value than 7M + 4M players do

Everyone would be a lot more patient about all of this if they signed fair market 8 year deals. We'd still have SIX more years to work it out.

As of now, the overpayments as well as shortened timeline has made everyone far less patient.

Fully agreed that Marner should be traded. I don't like doing it, but it's a necessity due to the flat cap.

 

[justashadowof]

Another thought on Ujiri: does a nice guy move out the team's best player for one year of a superior player to take a legit run at a championship? Or is that not a total Chad move?

 

[lottster14]

Nylander $7M AAV
Marner $8M AAV
Matthews $10M

Marner and Matthews would still be overpaid based on their crappy career playoff performance. Nylander redeemed himself with this years round 1.

 

[Pookie]

Pretty much

If you had your head in the sand to the drug issues... yeah, I guess you'd agree with that.

Lou and Babcock were recruited to come here to create a culture that would foster development.

 

[ER89]

In my definition of a nice guy, Ujiri isn't a nice guy. He is neither weak nor capitulating nor sycophantic. He's the opposite of all of that. He's a strong man who just knows how to speak to people ingratiatingly, positively and politely.

So you think being nice is weak or capitulating? Since when? They are not synonyms.

 

[Menzinger]

"abusive". He shared a "work ethic" list for christ sake. "Abusive". Good christ the world has gotten soft.

And yeah... our core were teenagers at the time facing elite teams. Now they're in their primes and are losing to (lol) Columbus and Montreal.

There's been reports that it's a bit more complicated than that. Matt Martin seemed to see things a bit differently

Islanders: Matt Martin Defends Mitch Marner Against Mike Babcock

There's obviously still a lack of clarity about the whole situation, but there certainly seemed seemed to be a tense atmosphere behind the scenes with the team for a while

 

[Kurtz]

Tavares and John Carlson were the two big ticket UFAs in 2018.

Leafs had ZERO need for a C when they already had Matthews and Kadri. ESPECIALLY not an $11m boat anchor like Tavares.

MUCH more pressing need was for a #1D like Carlson. THAT’S where the Tavares money should have gone.

That was a no-brainer now and it was a no-brainer then too.

It probably would have taken a JT-like deal to lure away John Carlson from Washington.

And I promise you that this board would not be happy to be stuck with an 11 mil Carlson right now.