We didn’t know what we had

[hotpaws]

I guess it’s different for anyone.

For me, I thought this team was on a championship trajectory in the Washington and first Boston series.

Fundamental changes made that offseason altered their path and it’s never quite had the same promise... for me, anyway.

i agree completely , first 2 years after the tank i thought this could finally be it

then Dubie gave PJ's 11m and followed that up with 2 more 11m dollar cap hits and i thought f*** me here we go again down the path to no where

 

[Garthinater]

Basicly it's falling in, since there was UFA Stanley Cup winning coach, when Islanders had no coach. Same way that Babcock landed on our lap, when we were in same situation. +/- 1 year and that option would have been off the table.

If Lou had signed some free agent coach like Ron Wilson and redeemed him, that would have been something to praise on. Trotz was available and something that anyone would have done if possible.

Same as us signing Tavares as UFA.

Trotz said he only went to the Islanders because of lou.

Gm gets credit for who he hires and his team. He also gets the blame. Its how it works.

 

[hotpaws]

Just trying to understand why you can praise no playoff success for one individual and condemn the other for the same thing.

maybe just maybe because the team made the playoffs right after finishing dead last with 3 kids leading the way in their first seasons and gave quality teams a good run for there money

now if you want to praise Dubas for losing to 2 crap teams like Columbus and Montreal then who am i to stop you

 

[Garthinater]

I love how nothing is dubas' fault.

We lost in 2019? Oh that was babcocks fault!

We lost in the play ins in 2020 to a decimated jackets (no bread man, no bob, no duchene)? Oh that was Freddy's fault (who had a .935 SV%)

We lost in 2021 to a terrible habs team that shouldn't even have made the playoffs? Oh that's marners / matthews / sandins / depths fault

At some point you need to accept that your stats nerd gm with no experience has no clue what he's doing.

Btw results >>>> your feelings.

 

[rumman]

I can imagine this same headline with Nylanders picture on it, because we kept Lou. That signed Tavares as UFA, got into irritating contract negotiations with Nylander. That meant Nylander was traded away and then we'd watch Nylander in beast mode in playoffs as center with another team. Our team full of veterans coached by Babcock, that has no leash.

If, if, if. One thing is for sure. We wouldn't have Barry Trotz & Lou Lamoriello.

granted, WN had played well in this seasons playoffs, but your definition of beast mode is far far different than mine definition of beast mode..............

 

[HoweHullOrr]

We knew. Difference is lou was able to bring in his own coach & system. None of which would have been possible in Toronto with babcock hired by shanny & the golden boy waiting in the wings.

You make a good point and also a point that I've been making. The move that had the biggest impact was the hire of Shanahan. Shanny then made the key hires and voila. Its Shanny that should be under the bright lights.

 

[deprw]

Trotz said he only went to the Islanders because of lou.

Gm gets credit for who he hires and his team. He also gets the blame. Its how it works.

Well Lou gave them crebilitity and chance to hire him, but Trotz was best option there was by country mile. Anyone would have had hired him if they needed coach and Trotz was available. Lou didn't do anything else than signing best option on the market.

Yeah, sure Trotz wouldn't have signed that contract with Garth Snow. That's for sure.

 

[sparxx87]

Basicly it's falling in, since there was UFA Stanley Cup winning coach, when Islanders had no coach. Same way that Babcock landed on our lap, when we were in same situation. +/- 1 year and that option would have been off the table.

If Lou had signed some free agent coach like Ron Wilson and redeemed him, that would have been something to praise on. Trotz was available and something that anyone would have done if possible.

Same as us signing Tavares as UFA.

No, not the same as Tavares because there’s no salary cap for coaching staff.

 

[egd27]

Lou also had Barry Trotz fall into his lap.

I love the absolute grasping at straws desperation of this this argument.

It implies that the coach that finally enabled the Caps to win the Stanley Cup, somehow had no other options than the lowly NYI.

The reality is Trotz chose the NYI predominately because he admired and wanted to work with Lou Lam.

 

[notbias]

maybe just maybe because the team made the playoffs right after finishing dead last with 3 kids leading the way in their first seasons and gave quality teams a good run for there money

now if you want to praise Dubas for losing to 2 crap teams like Columbus and Montreal then who am i to stop you

I just am trying to understand how people like you think, praising no playoff success only regular-season success under one GM, and then criticizing the other, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[rumman]

spin it any way you like but the fact is Dubie is half way out the door and one more underperforming season and he'd be kicked to the curb

one would hope..........

 

[sparxx87]

Well Lou gave them crebilitity and chance to hire him, but Trotz was best option there was by country mile. Anyone would have had hired him if they needed coach and Trotz was available. Lou didn't do anything else than signing best option on the market.

Yeah, sure Trotz wouldn't have signed that contract with Garth Snow. That's for sure.

Yes, but Trotz still needs the right players to execute his system, and this is where Lamoriello has done very well. Adding the right hand picked pieces (Pageau, Palmieri, Zajac) to the team that create a group performing greater than the sum of its parts.

That’s very hard to do.

 

[deprw]

granted, WN had played well in this seasons playoffs, but your definition of beast mode is far far different than mine definition of beast mode..............

He carried his line, worked his ass off and didn't crumble under pressure. I think he has even more potential, but is shadowed here by our big three. I didn't meant that he was here in full beast mode, but could be in some other place even better than this.

There are problems with Nylander, but he is way better than he gets credit for.

 

[Garthinater]

You make a good point and also a point that I've been making. The move that had the biggest impact was the hire of Shanahan. Shanny then made the key hires and voila. Its Shanny that should be under the bright lights.

Shanny has been here for 7 years and we still have 0 series wins.

You are right, the light should be shining on shanny as well.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Lous 2017 offseason was so bad lol. Zaitsev extension, Marleau signing, abysmal draft under Hunter. Things were already going off the rails people just didn't realize it because we had been improving, which was inevitable when you were the worst team in the league and add players like Matthews on ELCs.

God bless the people here who have the patience to push back on the notion that Lou was such a great GM here, I'm enjoying the sun.

 

[deprw]

No, not the same as Tavares because there’s no salary cap for coaching staff.

If you can add UFA 1st line center you usually add him, if you don't have two already or your cap situation is so bad that you can't do that. This flat cap may change that for few years, but when there was prospect of cap going up, it was basically no brainer. Same as Trotz as coach.

 

[sparxx87]

If you can add UFA 1st line center you usually add him, if you don't have two already or your cap situation is so bad that you can't do that. This flat cap may change that for few years, but when there was prospect of cap going up, it was basically no brainer. Same as Trotz as coach.

I agree. Exception being if you already have a 20-21 year old elite two way franchise centreman, and three expensive RFA contracts to negotiate... a deep and strong young group (Washington series had 8 rooks) that you want to mostly keep together.

The goal is to give this group 3-4 years while making opportunistic adds along the way.

Re asses along the way while maintaining as much NHL talent, always opportunities to trade from a strong position to strengthen another.

 

[hotpaws]

I just am trying to understand how people like you think, praising no playoff success only regular-season success under one GM, and then criticizing the other, it doesn't make sense to me.

i just explained it to you now please explain to me why your praising one GM for not having playoff success while craping on the other who faced much tougher teams

 

[hotpaws]

If you can add UFA 1st line center you usually add him, if you don't have two already or your cap situation is so bad that you can't do that. This flat cap may change that for few years, but when there was prospect of cap going up, it was basically no brainer. Same as Trotz as coach.

i guess this logic doesn't extend signing a num 1 d that would have filled your biggest need

 

[notbias]

i just explained it to you now please explain to me why your praising one GM for not having playoff success while craping on the other who faced much tougher teams

I like the direction the team is going, I believe they are being built to compete with the top teams. I'd rather not overpay the likes of Marleau, Zaitsev, Komarov. I have some gripes with how Dubas built the team last year, I think he put too much stock into tough veterans. But overall, he has shown he isn't unwilling to change this team to try to make them better. His drafting has also been great so far (too early to tell for sure, but it is looking good). Very happy with his reshaping of the D core.

 

[deprw]

Yes, but Trotz still needs the right players to execute his system, and this is where Lamoriello has done very well. Adding the right hand picked pieces (Pageau, Palmieri, Zajac) to the team that create a group performing greater than the sum of its parts.

That’s very hard to do.

Trotz was good with any team in Nashville for years and could also develop younger players there. He is full package as coach. I see him difference maker, not Lou adding the players he can get from the market, because that is what basically doing right now. Not any big trades for up and coming talents or bargain bin signings, that play way above their level. He is even overpaying his old core at the moment, that results him sending away players like Toews. Would he succeed with other coach? I don't think so, would Babcock win with that roster? I don't think so.

Our cap structure is at the moment problematic, but we have good system for adding talent outside of organization and how we coordinate our AHL team. Our drafting and development system is in place. If we sack Dubas today, we don't have to start over on those departments. We can roll on new rebuild in few years if we want to with another GM. I'm not praising Dubas for that. That is more on Shanahan.

If Lou gets a stroke, what is the formula that he developed and built in Islanders? What I could learn from him, if I was up and coming hockey executive. Something that he has done so differently that I can pin point, that if I do that then I will be in conference finals.

 

[egd27]

I just am trying to understand how people like you think, praising no playoff success only regular-season success under one GM, and then criticizing the other, it doesn't make sense to me.

Are you saying you don't understand the concepts of improving and regressing as they pertain to a professional sports franchise?

 

[sparxx87]

Trotz was good with any team in Nashville for years and could also develop younger players there. He is full package as coach. I see him difference maker, not Lou adding the players he can get from the market, because that is what basically doing right now. Not any big trades for up and coming talents or bargain bin signings, that play way above their level. He is even overpaying his old core at the moment, that results him sending away players like Toews. Would he succeed with other coach? I don't think so, would Babcock win with that roster? I don't think so.

Our cap structure is at the moment problematic, but we have good system for adding talent outside of organization and how we coordinate our AHL team. Our drafting and development system is in place. If we sack Dubas today, we don't have to start over on those departments. We can roll on new rebuild in few years if we want to with another GM. I'm not praising Dubas for that. That is more on Shanahan.

If Lou gets a stroke, what is the formula that he developed and built in Islanders? What I could learn from him, if I was up and coming hockey executive. Something that he has done so differently that I can pin point, that if I do that then I will be in conference finals.

I just don’t agree with any of this. I’m not going to change your mind, that’s ok too.

The one thing to learn?

No single player is bigger than the team. Not even John Tavares.

 

[ottomaddox]

View attachment 445564

This is such a sad commentary on many Leaf fans who are agist.

For as long as I can remember on HF:

Old = bad
Young = good

 

[egd27]

Yes, but Trotz still needs the right players to execute his system, and this is where Lamoriello has done very well. Adding the right hand picked pieces (Pageau, Palmieri, Zajac) to the team that create a group performing greater than the sum of its parts.

That’s very hard to do.

It is, but it is made easier if the GM wants to provide the players that can execute the coach's system rather than his own vision. It also helps if the coach has a system that he wants to execute.

I'm afraid Dubas is 0 for 2 in that regard.