Salary Cap: We are looking for nuclear Kessels. And whales. Beam me up, Scotty Bowman

[McMatthews]

Well, yeah. Without actually knowing everyone knows the sticking point is Maatta.

I can not blame Toronto for thinking that way, we all have seen JR pull some boneheaded plays like that, and in fact most here fear it. But time to face it. If JR was gonna JR, he would have done it already.

Ball is squarely in Toronto's court now.

Maatta ain't happening. The Pens will go another direction if that remains the sticking point. Does Toronto want a fair deal or not. It is pretty obvious Maatta will not be part of it at this point.

I wouldn't want to move Maatta either but I don't think we can definitively say it's not happening.

You'd still be getting one of the top 10 offensive talents on the planet.

With a C like Sidney or Geno, he could easily score 90+ points.

Again... I think the world of Maatta and I wouldn't want to give him up either but if JR does give him up for Phil, don't be upset.

Phil is a beast. He's also a good dude. Some guys in the Toronto media are idiots.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

And Despres with a wicked check on Kessel putting him flat on his KFC big Bucket

 

[JackFr]

Its always easier to not make a move than to make a move. If the Pens PR says that the price was too high and then they sign St Louis and Ward then fans will eat it up.

I think this team needs an earthshaking move, not a few pieces. Pieces are easier, and that's why I'm not holding my breath for Kessel.

Kessels the kind of player that we're never going to have another chance at. Scoring is our problem, why not solve it forever?

 

[orby]

I think it's within the realm of possibility that maatta would be going to toronto in a kessel trade but i also think that the pens have the upper hand in the game of chicken because they're toronto's only suitor and the longer it drags on, the less likely it will be that kessel fetches maximum value

 

[Contender]

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I wouldn't want to move Maatta either but I don't think we can definitively say it's not happening.

You'd still be getting one of the top 10 offensive talents on the planet.

With a C like Sidney or Geno, he could easily score 90+ points.

Again... I think the world of Maatta and I wouldn't want to give him up either but if JR does give him up for Phil, don't be upset.

Phil is a beast. He's also a good dude. Some guys in the Toronto media are idiots.

The thing is, none of us know of course. But like I said if Jr was gonna JR (ie give up Maatta, Crosby, whatever it takes) he'd have done it already. Maybe the silver lining to the Despres trade was that the fallout was so bad maybe JR got cautious and some sense.

In any event the Pens have some legit options to go to if this fails. Maybe Toronto does as well. But I would guess it is either take a deal without Maatta (still a very good deal) or the Pens look elsewhere. Likely as soon as tomorrow.

As an aside, I say this as one of the strongest, if not the strongest, advocate of the Pens choosing Kessel in his draft year. I REALLY wanted him. Some long time posters here will remember that.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

He doesn't need it, but based on everything I've watched, he prefers it that way. I'm not saying he's a selfish player, but that's the way he likes to play and like any star player, they have their preferences catered to them at least a little.

This is largely because he gets frustrated watching the Talbots and Comeau's and yes, James Neal's of the world hand grenading the puck and turning it over. He's spent his whole career playing that way. The guy will be 29 soon, and has never really played with anyone who could handle the puck and was even vaguely creative with it.

But he's going to need to change his style, he won't be able to bull through two guys like he used to. Kessel would be a nice transition, hell, even Oshie would be a big upgrade.

 

[orby]

Do not want Franson at all unless Maatta is traded and even then I'm not sure he's a better option than Martin

 

[malkshake]

The thing that excites me most about potentially getting Kessel is the fact that our PP becomes that much stronger. I can't remember ever having an option like this on the left wall that will demand the PK unit to respect his shot and passing ability. The whole dynamic changes and opens so much space it is insane to think about. If we had a true PP quarterback.... my goodness.

 

[orby]

The Pens always find a way to be bad on the power play no matter who they acquire. Kessel would suddenly forget how to hold a hockey stick

 

[McMatthews]

Franson is a #4/5 defenceman on a good team who can play the point on the PP.

The problem is that he's going to get top pairing money. He's not a top pairing guy.

- Exceptional snapshot from the point
- Tall and somewhat lanky
- Lacks aggression
- Average skater
- Defensively, he makes the right decision 8 times out of 10

 

[malkshake]

The Pens always find a way to be bad on the power play no matter who they acquire. Kessel would suddenly forget how to hold a hockey stick

If only Gonchar were still in his prime. It would be a beautiful thing to have Kessel and Malkin being fed pucks into their wheelhouse by Gonch, something Letang just can't get right.

 

[WayneSid9987]

So is any other team even rumored to be in on Phil?
And is the 2M retained story from a reputable source?

 

[Zen Arcade]

Don't want any part of Franson, especially with the money he's going to get. I don't know that source though, they may not have even inquired.

 

[billybudd]

I don't disagree with Riptide that a player of Kessel's...prolificness?...isn't a need, per se. What he is is available and I believe him to be in a position as an asset where his price to acquire is out of whack with his production in a way that benefits us.

I think the top six would shake out quite nicely if we were to, for example, successfully offer-sheet Saad and acquire another slightly under-the-radar player in free agency. But I also think that's less likely to happen than successfully buying Kessel for dimes on the dollar.

I'd sooner put Skinner and Ward, Sharp and Frolik, Kunitz and Dupuis, or, Hell, Fitzgerald and Guerin in the top six than part with an Olli Maatta for Kessel, though. Or if they want the equivalent of three first round picks and won't budge, same applies. Kessel the asset isn't worth any of that in a cap league.

In that event, I look at other options--good or not so good--and send Mr Dubas a bottle of whiskey as a courtesy. He'll need it when the sharks eat him alive. Simmons started on the "25 year old AGM getting taken to school" angle already and no deadline has even passed. Lord knows what Cox, McLean and Kypreos will be saying in six months if Kessel's skate hits a rut. Or in two days if he modifies his NT clause to include only clubs with no cap space.

 

[Kyle93]

Do not want Franson at all unless Maatta is traded and even then I'm not sure he's a better option than Martin

He's not. Franson is slow and prone to atrocious mistakes in the D-zone, bad pinches, and brutal turnovers. He's got a good (accurate, but not hard) shot to use from the point on the PP, but only scores 5-10 goals with it (though this may be because the Leafs don't use D on their off-side on the PP, so there are no opportunities to one-time it). Good pass, and started throwing his weight around somewhat more this year which has helped when facing opposing forwards on the rush, but is still often skated circles around and beat on the outside.

He's like a #5 (borderline #4) & PP specialist. Can play well in top-4 if you pair him with someone who can cover his deficiencies (Phaneuf did that this year; the year before, he had a team worst -20 and it was very clear why while watching in the games).

He got a 1st because Phaneuf made him look better than he is, and because he has all the buzz words that GMs drool over (6'5", physical, high scoring, PP specialist, good point shot, etc.). Seemingly the perfect defenceman, but very flawed beyond the surface.

So many Leafs fans have a lovefest for Franson because advanced stats show he's good for puck possession, but he is just completely clueless when it comes to playing D.

Absolute most I would feel comfortable is 3 years at 4 mil. But he will likely get his 5.5x5 because of those buzz words.

 

[WayneSid9987]

To be honest, i'd rather spend 4.5-5 or so on Franson, who is 27, 6'5", and shoots the puck 10x harder, then spending it on Martin.

 

[66-30-33]

So is any other team even rumored to be in on Phil?
And is the 2M retained story from a reputable source?

2M retained was rumored by a Kessel hater who's not reliable.

 

[McMatthews]

The thing is, none of us know of course. But like I said if Jr was gonna JR (ie give up Maatta, Crosby, whatever it takes) he'd have done it already. Maybe the silver lining to the Despres trade was that the fallout was so bad maybe JR got cautious and some sense.

In any event the Pens have some legit options to go to if this fails. Maybe Toronto does as well. But I would guess it is either take a deal without Maatta (still a very good deal) or the Pens look elsewhere. Likely as soon as tomorrow.

As an aside, I say this as one of the strongest, if not the strongest, advocate of the Pens choosing Kessel in his draft year. I REALLY wanted him. Some long time posters here will remember that.

I know you're probably talking about a package around Pouliot/Kapanan, 1st round pick and cap dumps.

Toronto fans want Kessel gone but the Mike Babcock hiring now presents the possibility of them experimenting with bringing Phil back and maybe shopping him at the trade deadline or next offseason. I think if JR or another team really needs to upgrade scoring, somebody will give up an elite asset (Maatta). Shanahan and his front office need to hit a homer with a Kessel trade, since he's our most valuable asset. I think ego will play a role in the handling of Phil Kessel and they might actually put Leafs fans through a whole season of media scrutiny of poor Phil, just to get that homerun young player.

We'll see what happens. I strongly hope we can get rid of all the core players (Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak). Not because they're bad players, because they're not bad players at all. Any of them would improve some aspect of another team. It's just the culture around the team has been garbage for a couple seasons now and we don't need radio stations talking about Phil's weight every day on the drive home from work.

Phil at $8M for the entirety of his prime will show to be excellent value, given the obvious spike in the projected salary cap. He'll be putting up between 75 and 90 points a season for the next 5 seasons. After that, you likely have a 50-60 point guy until the end of that contract.

An absolute homerun trade with the Penguins, from a Leafs perspective, would include Olli Maatta and a 1st round pick.

 

[billybudd]

2M retained was rumored by a Kessel hater who's not reliable.

Simmons is more of an ***hole and propagandist than a liar. He's like a Canadian Larry Brooks from six circles deeper into Hell.

 

[orby]

I think toronto would sooner sell low on kessel at 8 mil aav than try to get a bigger return by retaining so much for so long. 2 million dollars of useless dead weight counting against your team for more than half a decade could lead to some very ugly scenarios

 

[McMatthews]

I think toronto would sooner sell low on kessel at 8 mil aav than try to get a bigger return by retaining so much for so long. 2 million dollars of useless dead weight counting against your team for more than half a decade could lead to some very ugly scenarios

Exactly.

There is no chance Shanahan retains on Phil Kessel.

He's not a player you retain money on. If his cap hit was $9.5M+, I would say otherwise but $8M is good value.

 

[displacedpensfan]

Exactly.

There is no chance Shanahan retains on Phil Kessel.

He's not a player you retain money on. If his cap hit was $9.5M+, I would say otherwise but $8M is good value.

That's fine with me; though I'm not a Kessel fan, I'd rather part with more cash than assets because this year's free agent crop is like going shopping in a late '80s era Soviet supermarket-there's not much on the shelves, and pretty much everything you can buy is crap you don't want. If we're willing to fill out the 4th line with players like Rust and play at least 3 of the WBS kids on defense, we'll be fine.

 

[drpepper]

Exactly.

There is no chance Shanahan retains on Phil Kessel.

He's not a player you retain money on. If his cap hit was $9.5M+, I would say otherwise but $8M is good value.

If there's no retention then I don't see anyway that TOR has leverage to demand or that Rutherford would include Maatta in a trade.

In spite of Leaf fans attitudes and wants, Kessel has a NTC that he's strategically arranged. He's not going to be sold to the highest bidder.

Additionally, the Pens only have two top 4 defensemen and only one on an ELC. After trading Despres, Rutherford's not going to easily trade away Maatta.

And although not as prolific (or expensive) the Pens have other options. TOR can look elsewhere for their homerun trade.

 

[Farnham4top6]

Hope we stay far away from franson, the other Brynäs reject we tried clearly failed.