WCQF: Wild vs. Stars Series Discussion

[Dr Jan Itor]

For the Stars, they couldn't make a profit. If a product isn't good enough on the ice, be it a bad stadium or a bad team, there is always a risk of them moving.

It's funny that you say that fans don't deserve anything and yet when we mention anything of a rebuild, the argument is that the fan base wouldn't stand for it. So which is it?

The rebuild has nothing to do with the fans. It's Leipold and the $190 million Parise/Suter contracts.

 

[Ban Hammered]

I also personally don't care whether the fans would stand for it.
It's not a good business model either profit wise or title wise to do things based on whether the fans would stand for it or not.

 

[MNWILDFAN001]

The job of the owner and GM is put out the best product possible. If that means tanking so they can get the high talent they need, then so be it.

 

[roon]

I also personally don't care whether the fans would stand for it.
It's not a good business model either profit wise or title wise to do things based on whether the fans would stand for it or not.

So it isn't a good business model to take into account the preferences of your customers?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So it isn't a good business model to take into account the preferences of your customers?

I've yet to see a poll favoring a complete tear down.

 

[roon]

I've yet to see a poll favoring a complete tear down.

I didn't suggest one.

He stated it isn't a good business model title or profit wise to make decisions based upon what your fans think.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I didn't suggest one.

He stated it isn't a good business model title or profit wise to make decisions based upon what your fans think.

I'd say that the "fan vote" can be a consideration, or a factor, in decisions, but probably not the deciding.

Fans, by and large, are pretty ignorant of the day to day stuff.

 

[Victorious Secret]

This is Leipold's fault. He put the pressure on Fletcher to ice a competitive team immediately. They skipped proper rebuild steps. It's showing.

You can also talk about 'business models' all you want. Wild are in an entertainment industry, but choose to be the most boring team out there. That is the exact opposite of the proper business model for this league, from the owner's perspective. But it gets wins, which is okay with the GM. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[thestonedkoala]

The rebuild has nothing to do with the fans. It's Leipold and the $190 million Parise/Suter contracts.

The rebuild has everything to do with the fans. Every time I question why Fletcher didn't rebuild or why the team didn't rebuild when they switched GMs, I've always been told that Fletcher wasn't given the opportunity. He was told to build on the fly and get the team to the playoffs. That the fans and Leipold wouldn't stand for a rebuild.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

The rebuild has everything to do with the fans. Every time I question why Fletcher didn't rebuild or why the team didn't rebuild when they switched GMs, I've always been told that Fletcher wasn't given the opportunity. He was told to build on the fly and get the team to the playoffs. That the fans and Leipold wouldn't stand for a rebuild.

The only thing the fans could do is not show up. Would they if they knew we were headed towards 3-5 years (or more) of the season being over before it starts? None of us know that.

Leipold is the only one with direct control over the matter.

You don't shell out the kind of money commitment that he did, and 3 years later decide to blow it up. It's not as simple a decision as some here seem to think, at least.

 

[Ban Hammered]

So it isn't a good business model to take into account the preferences of your customers?

No, it's not. Sorry but most fans don't know jack about how to run or build a winning, profitable hockey team, no matter how much they may think they do. Fans are both too fickle and too ignorant to be a major factor in any decision making.

 

[BigT2002]

No, it's not. Sorry but most fans don't know jack about how to run or build a winning, profitable hockey team, no matter how much they may think they do. Fans are both too fickle and too ignorant to be a major factor in any decision making.

That is a pretty lofty generalization. If you mean as a collective whole, then I would accept your statement as a fact. If you are talking about isolation of key individuals in the masses, then I would challenge your statement. Hell, the Wild are now doing a focus group comprised of STH's on what they think needs to change, ranging from 16 year STH's to 5 year STH's. I've seen the questions they are asking: they are indeed asking a select group of fans to provide an opinion on where they feel this team is going.

 

[Ban Hammered]

Being a STH doesn't mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to the game, doesn't matter how long they have been fans. If what the fans want is any major part of decision making, that's a recipe for disaster.

 

[thestonedkoala]

You don't shell out the kind of money commitment that he did, and 3 years later decide to blow it up. It's not as simple a decision as some here seem to think, at least.

This team is heading toward not being good enough to make playoffs, not bad enough to get a top draft pick. I rather have a GM and an owner that admits that major mistakes happen and try to fix them by blowing them up then plowing forward and ignoring glaring issues.

 

[BigT2002]

Being a STH doesn't mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to the game, doesn't matter how long they have been fans. If what the fans want is any major part of decision making, that's a recipe for disaster.

I'm indifferent. Some of those people involved are former NHL players. Are you saying they don't know anything about hockey?

And yes I'm just playing devils advocate

 

[57special]

I want a front office that is ahead of what the fans are thinking, not reacting to them.

In other words, i want a smart FO, that is ahead of the curve. Leipold seems to be a guy who is willing to spend right to the cap, is enthusiastic, and more or less stays out of the GM's hair when it comes to hockey decisions.

What a terrible owner!

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

This team is heading toward not being good enough to make playoffs, not bad enough to get a top draft pick. I rather have a GM and an owner that admits that major mistakes happen and try to fix them by blowing them up then plowing forward and ignoring glaring issues.

Well, all of those teams that have been picking at the top of the draft should be passing us up with all of the elite talents that they are collecting, so that should push us down further. Unless there are current playoff teams that are in worse shape than us.

And it's much, much easier to say when you're not writing the checks. And yes, he has plenty of money. He's not going to lose his house or anything. But everything is much easier said when you don't have any skin in the game.

 

[Ban Hammered]

I'm indifferent. Some of those people involved are former NHL players. Are you saying they don't know anything about hockey?

And yes I'm just playing devils advocate

Well if you don't give all the info, it's hard to properly respond. ☺
A former player is vastly different than just an STH...well unless it's someone like Steve Staios...

 

[plock]

I also personally don't care whether the fans would stand for it.
It's not a good business model either profit wise or title wise to do things based on whether the fans would stand for it or not.

A complete disregard for the feelings of the fan base would be a mistake of colossal magnitude.It is the type of mistake that can destroy a business ,look at W.T. Grant or more recently Research in Motion (BlackBerry).

Disappointed fans stop buying tickets.Season ticket holders may decide a winter vacation to somewhere sunny,or some other activity,is a better use of their money than watching team they see as; inconsistent,lacking in heart or skill or just not good in general.Television viewership would decline,further eroding advertising revenue.All of this is bad for the team in general and the business in particular.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Well, all of those teams that have been picking at the top of the draft should be passing us up with all of the elite talents that they are collecting, so that should push us down further. Unless there are current playoff teams that are in worse shape than us.

Minnesota has enough talent not to collapse, but not enough to challenge. We're like San Jose during the mid 2000s.

And it's much, much easier to say when you're not writing the checks. And yes, he has plenty of money. He's not going to lose his house or anything. But everything is much easier said when you don't have any skin in the game.

Which is exactly the point; buying out Gilbert, buying out Cooke, all the worthless 3rd and 4th liners that hung around until we got someone to take them off our hands, Backstrom, Pominville. Wasted money and wasted roster spots.

 

[Ban Hammered]

A complete disregard for the feelings of the fan base would be a mistake of colossal magnitude.It is the type of mistake that can destroy a business ,look at W.T. Grant or more recently Research in Motion (BlackBerry).

Disappointed fans stop buying tickets.Season ticket holders may decide a winter vacation to somewhere sunny,or some other activity,is a better use of their money than watching team they see as; inconsistent,lacking in heart or skill or just not good in general.Television viewership would decline,further eroding advertising revenue.All of this is bad for the team in general and the business in particular.

Sports is a different animal though. The team will have changes made to it because management and ownership decide to, not because the fans want it. I also don't think Wild management are that worried about some season ticket holders bailing when they have a waiting list that is 2 years long. Fans may get some input, but decisions will not be made based on what they think, not in a sports franchise.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Minnesota has enough talent not to collapse, but not enough to challenge. We're like San Jose during the mid 2000s.



Which is exactly the point; buying out Gilbert, buying out Cooke, all the worthless 3rd and 4th liners that hung around until we got someone to take them off our hands, Backstrom, Pominville. Wasted money and wasted roster spots.

Which is why a "proper rebuild" is a ridiculous notion. The amount of talent that you'd have to dump wouldn't make any sense. I guess you'd get some pretty good futures, but that's no guarantee either.

 

[plock]

Sports is a different animal though. The team will have changes made to it because management and ownership decide to, not because the fans want it. I also don't think Wild management are that worried about some season ticket holders bailing when they have a waiting list that is 2 years long. Fans may get some input, but decisions will not be made based on what they think, not in a sports franchise.

I disagree.I am not saying that the fans should dictate the details of the changes to be made,but rather that ignoring their desires and expectations and disregarding their value or seeing them as an easily replaceable commodity would be beyond idiotic.

 

[NHL1674]

Watching all these other series and seeing most of the teams win a game is making me sad.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Looking at Dallas and how they were built:

Free Agents:
Patrick Eaves - 2014
Vern Fiddler - 2014
Antoine Roussel - 2012
Ales Hemsky - 2014
Jordie Benn - 2008
Johnny Oduya - 2015

Drafted:
Jamie Benn (5th Round, 129th Overall, 2007 Draft)
Radek Faska (1st Round, 13th Overall, 2012 Draft)
Colton Sceviour (4th Round, 112th Overall, 2007 Draft)
Valeri Nichushkin (1st Round, 10th Overall, 2013 Draft)
Jyrki Jokipakka* (7th Round, 195th Overall, 2011 Draft)*
John Klingberg (5th round, 131st Overall, 2010 Draft)

Traded:

Acquired:
Roster:
Mattias Janmark - Nylan
Cody Eakin
Patrick Sharp
Jason Spezza
Tyler Seguin
Jason Demers
Alex Goligoski
Antii Niemi
Kari Lehtonen

Non-Roster:
Mattias Backman
Stephen Jones
Ludwig Karlsson
Ryan Button
Rich Peverely

Draft Picks:

2012
2nd round, 54th overall (Mike Winther)

2015
2nd round, 49th overall (Roope Hintz)

Forfeited:
Erik Cole (traded to Dallas for Michael Ryder (signed as a free agent) and a 3rd round, 71st Overall, 2013 draft (Connor Crisp))
Mike Riberio (traded from Montreal for Jannie Niinimma (previous acquired from NY Islanders with 5th round, 136th overall pick, 2007 draft for John Erskine and 2nd round pick, 60th overall pick, 2006 (Jesse Joensuu) and 5th round (142nd overall pick, 2007 draft (Andrew Conboy))
Ryan Garbutt (signed in 2011)
Trevor Daley (2nd round, 43rd overall pick, 2002 draft)
Nick Paul (4th round, 101st overall pick, 2013 draft)
Alexander Guptill (3rd round, 77th overall pick, 2010 draft)
Alex Chiasson (2nd round, 38th overall pick, 2009 draft)
Reilly Smith (3rd round, 69th overall, 2009 draft)
Joe Morrow (traded from Pittsburgh with 5th round pick, 2013 draft (Matej Paulovic) for Brendan Morrow (1st round, 25th overall pick in 1997) and 3rd round pick, 77th overall pick, 2013 draft (Jake Guentzel)
Matt Fraser (signed 2011)
Loui Ericksson (2nd round, 33rd overall, 2003 draft)
Brenden Dillon (signed 2010)
James Neal (2nd round, 33rd overall pick, 2005 draft)
Matt Niskanen (1st round, 28th overall pick, 2005 draft)
Ivan Vishnevskiy (1st overall, 27th overall pick, 2006 draft)

Draft Picks:
2010:
4th round, 101st overall (Ivan Telegin)

2015 Draft
2nd Round, 42nd overall pick (Mackenzie Blackwood)
3rd round, 73rd overall pick (Vili Saarijarvi)
7th round, 193rd overall (Jake Kupsky)

Summary:
6 Free Agent
6 Drafted (highest 10th overall, lowest 195th overall)
9 Traded

Trade Breakdown:
Gained:
9 Roster Players
5 Non-Roster (Prospect/Retired)
2 Draft Picks

Lost:
8 Roster Players (4 were signed as a Free Agents (three UDFA), 2 traded and 9 drafted players)
7 Non-Roster (Prospects)
4 Draft picks

Some observations:

Their highest drafted and traded player was Brendan Morrow, 1st round, 25th overall pick.

They traded three undrafted free agents (Ryan Garbutt, Matt Fraser and Brenden Dillon)

They mainly trade players picked in the mid-rounds (2nd through 4th).