Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CGY] Elias Lindholm for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond. 2024 4th

[SensontheRush]

I think the fanbase likes the guy so much that they wanted to exercise a lot of patience with and give him as much of a chance as humanly possible, but I don't think your sentiment is true, especially considering how dire the Canucks cap situation is and all the guys they need to re-sign and will want raises. It does hurt to say because of how awesome he was last year, but if trading Kuzmenko as a straight cap dump is the difference that allows a guy like Dakota Joshua to be re-signed, you take the deal and run. It's more about that than the contention window, IMO.

I have faith that he'll bounce back, and I don't feel that strongly about the shot percentage arguments, but he was really playing his way off the line-up in a bad way and forcing management's hand. Even in limited minutes on the fourth line, he was occasionally still a liability hurting the team with his blunders. It was tough to watch.

Wouldn't you prefer to get rid of Mikheyev or Garland as straight cap dumps to make room for a guy like Dakota Joshua?

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'm open to moving Mikheyev for sure. But there is a significant difference between the cap commitments of Mikheyev/Garland and what Lindholm will command. Lindholm will be receiving an AAV around $8M (maybe more!) with 7ish years attached, starting at age 30. That is much different than the less than $5M hits for Garland/Mikheyev that only have two years left after this season. Garland is also the clear driver of the Canucks very effective 3rd line. I wouldn't trade him.

I'm not a fan of Lindholm's recent trajectory and aging risk. I've said before, I think this is a very good fit as a rental and they should leave it at that. Lindholm's next contract will be a negative value deal from Day 1.

I think similar arguments were made against Miller as well. Does your analysis change at all if he returns to a 30~ goal pace?

I'm also not a fan of Lindholm's recent trajectory, but I also don't think that trajectory continues with the Canucks. You're right though, beyond AAV, there's a significant term difference between Mikheyev/Garland and the projected Lindholm contract. Still, if they've already decided to go long with Miller at a similar age and cap, the same idea applies here.

Garland has been good. Unlikely to be traded in the near future (Mikheyev should go first).

Anyway, the first shoe that has to drop is that Mikheyev has to be moved in the offseason. Until that happens, they won't have the cap space they need to even consider re-signing Lindholm. Early days.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Wouldn't you prefer to get rid of Mikheyev or Garland as straight cap dumps to make room for a guy like Dakota Joshua?

heck no, especially with Garland. He is amazing and a line driver.

joshua-garland -Bleuger is probably the best 3rd line in the league and thats mostly because of Garland. He drives that bus. If you watch them play , as soon as that lines recovers the puck, they instantly look for Garland so that he can make the play and drive possesion.

Joshua is great. fantastic around the net and great forchecker but if he prices himself out, we have guys like Podkilzin who is marinating in the NHL ready to take his spot.


Garland is irreplacable. Mikhayev is clearly not healthy yet. There's lots of evidence that shows it takes about 18 months until an athlete fully performs to his previous ability after sustaining that knee injury. I think he is only 12 months removed from surgery. Im willing to give him until next year. We need to get another forward though to bump Mikh out of the top 6. He still does alot of things well without the puck.

 

[HairyKneel]

I didn't want Hoglander or Podkolzin coming back a Flames fan. Especially Podkolzin, his numbers in the AHL are pretty mediocre

Do you play cards? Let’s hook up a game.As a Canucs fan I was happy to keep those kids. Both are NHL top 9 forwards.

 

[bossram]

I think similar arguments were made against Miller as well. Does your analysis change at all if he returns to a 30~ goal pace?

I'm also not a fan of Lindholm's recent trajectory, but I also don't think that trajectory continues with the Canucks. You're right though, beyond AAV, there's a significant term difference between Mikheyev/Garland and the projected Lindholm contract. Still, if they've already decided to go long with Miller at a similar age and cap, the same idea applies here.

Garland has been good. Unlikely to be traded in the near future (Mikheyev should go first).

Anyway, the first shoe that has to drop is that Mikheyev has to be moved in the offseason. Until that happens, they won't have the cap space they need to even consider re-signing Lindholm. Early days.

Re Bolded: No. Not really. He's still not a driver and is only going to put up points/goals playing with elite players.

Yes, similar arguments were made with Miller (including me!). I was wrong. Miller has shown now he is high-end driver. And even if he faces age-related decline, he's starting from a much higher point to fall from than Lindholm is.

Even with the cap going up, cap flexibility still carries a lot of value. And the OEL buyout is going to eat up a chunk of the cap-increase anyway. They need to keep the books clean and focus on paying the guys that matter.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Re Bolded: No. Not really. He's still not a driver and is only going to put up points/goals playing with elite players.

Yes, similar arguments were made with Miller (including me!). I was wrong. Miller has shown now he is high-end driver. And even if he faces age-related decline, he's starting from a much higher point to fall from than Lindholm is.

Even with the cap going up, cap flexibility still carries a lot of value. And the OEL buyout is going to eat up a chunk of the cap-increase anyway. They need to keep the books clean and focus on paying the guys that matter.

If Miller has shown now that he is a play driver, and not before, maybe the same can happen for Lindholm? We have to see it play out.

I've enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Bond]

Do you play cards? Let’s hook up a game.As a Canucs fan I was happy to keep those kids. Both are NHL top 9 forwards.

Canucks are in a completely different stage than the Flames though. I think they both max out as middle six guys and that is if Podkolzin even makes it. The Flames are already overloaded with middle six wingers and are about to bottom out.

If Miller has shown now that he is a play driver, and not before, maybe the same can happen for Lindholm? We have to see it play out.

I've enjoyed the discussion.

Lindholm even when he was playing his best wasn't a line driver but he doesn't really need to be on the Canucks.

 

[Shareefruck]

Wouldn't you prefer to get rid of Mikheyev or Garland as straight cap dumps to make room for a guy like Dakota Joshua?

This might be a hot take (nearly 5 million for only 40 points, yada yada yada), but I think Garland is barely even overpaid. Hell, I don't think I would want to trade him, period, even for decent return. He's been absolutely fantastic for the team and is one of the key reasons it's turned into a contender. So absolutely not. In fact, I would probably rather lose Joshua than Garland, as much as either would suck. The numbers are also a bit misleading. He struggled to find a fit early in the season, but once he did, he's been a 50-60 point player while playing excellent defensively and elevating the guys around him, and while serving as probably the biggest catalyst/momentum-shifter on the team. One could even maybe argue that this instantly could have turned into a one-line team without him (what were previously third/fourth line tweeners formed a very good second line playing with him, afterall). Last season, maybe he was in that cap dump territory, but honestly, most years he's been with us, he's been very valuable and I've been pretty happy with him, despite costing a lot.

The Canucks cap issues are bad enough that I would desperately want to salary dump BOTH Mikheyev and Kuzmenko, personally. It's not just Joshua alone that we'll probably be unable to sign, it's a whole bunch of guys, with Pettersson's gargantuan expected upcoming contract looming over that.

If I had to choose between Kuzmenko and Mikheyev (which again, I don't think I do), I'd probably
prefer to keep Kuzmenko, yes, but I did have to think about it. He's had some struggles this season, but Mikheyev is still versatile enough that he can play anywhere and doesn't hurt you nearly as much as Kuzmenko has at points this season (and might next season), who has been straight up unplayable at times, but he also doesn't have nearly as much potential star power as Kuzmenko, obviously. Then again Mikheyev also has a better excuse for his struggles, his greatest strength (speed) not looking quite right since returning from injury. There's arguably a much better chance he returns to form than Kuzmenko overcoming his existing glaring shortcomings (which have never not been a problem).

If this were a really bad team with cap space to spare, sure, I would probably hang on to Kuzmenko just on the off chance he figures it out, which would be amazing, but that seems a little more extreme than what you were suggesting.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I’d like a viewpoint from some honest Flames fans about how they feel Lindholm will fit in here. Reading the Oilers helmet forum he is butter soft and won’t move the needle. From watching him the last few years I disagree. That forum is so full of vitriol, so take it with a bag of salt.

I think it’s a decent deal for both squads. I’d appreciate any Flames fans opinion on on the player.

I wouldn't take anything said on that forum about the Flames or Canucks all that seriously.

Lindy is probably as good a fit as you could think of for Tocchet's team. He's a jack of all trades master of none kind of top 6 player. Quality two way center. He's just not talented enough to drive a line offensively and for whatever reason was not a good fit with Huberdeau. He has stunk this year and likely will never hit the highs he did with Gaudreau and Tkachuk again. Used to be near automatic from the mid slot so I dunno what has happened because he can't finish for shit the last two seasons.

He's just not skilled enough to produce even when he's not playing well like say Draisaitl or Pettersson are. When he's making 2nd efforts and winning tough puck battles on the boards or down low is when his value really shines. He's definitely not soft when he's properly motivated. On the surface I would say he looks like a great fit with Tocchet and the Canucks but there's plenty of what looked like great fits before that didn't pan out for whatever reason.

 

[Rowlet]

I wouldn't take anything said on that forum about the Flames or Canucks all that seriously.

Lindy is probably as good a fit as you could think of for Tocchet's team. He's a jack of all trades master of none kind of top 6 player. Quality two way center. He's just not talented enough to drive a line offensively and for whatever reason was not a good fit with Huberdeau. He has stunk this year and likely will never hit the highs he did with Gaudreau and Tkachuk again. Used to be near automatic from the mid slot so I dunno what has happened because he can't finish for shit the last two seasons.

He's just not skilled enough to produce even when he's not playing well like say Draisaitl or Pettersson are. When he's making 2nd efforts and winning tough puck battles on the boards or down low is when his value really shines. He's definitely not soft when he's properly motivated. On the surface I would say he looks like a great fit with Tocchet and the Canucks but there's plenty of what looked like great fits before that didn't pan out for whatever reason.

The Canucks' biggest needs were another PKer to free up minutes from Pettersson and Miller, added top 6 versatility, and more defensive players, so it's pretty perfect on paper.

 

[NikoEhlers]

I do wonder why we have seen Lindholms numbers go down this season in a contract year, and I wonder if Canucks can fit him in on a long term deal.

I believe I saw Flames fans talk about him asking for 9 million, which he wont be getting. If he is open to staying in Vancouver its not a bad move. In general not big fan of rentals as I dont think they help as much as ppl make it out, but done early like this they do make at least a little sense, and give the team time to utilize them better.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I really don't get what you aren't getting.

You are saying that no matter what, EVEN IF the Canucks shat the bed this year immensely, they are still going to pay a team to take Kuzmenko off their hands? Of course not. The context arose that turned him into a (necessary) cap dump. They would have given him the chance to make himself either keepable or a desirable trade asset yet again.

That's all I've been really trying to say. I might as well have been interacting with a brick wall all this time.

If the team was aware that he was SUCH a liability as you are describing, and with an easily ascertained down year incoming, then perhaps they should have traded him last year? Seems like you are proving my point that it was a blunder to trade him when you've forced yourself into a corner regarding this once valuable asset.

Well, we lucked out and didn't pay a team to take him, yes, he wouldn't have meshed with Tochett no matter what and they would have traded him at some point anyways. The context arose when he didn't buy into a winning system. Not a knee jerk reaction at all. He had a year to adjust, he didn't.

You attacked the coach and team for not adjusting to a player, rather than the player adjusting to the team. It was a clueless argument, I called you out for it. Again, if you don't like that, don't make clueless arguments.

I think many of us thought he'd regress but we thought he would be coachable, he wasn't. Hence why we traded him, again, he had a year to adjust.

 

[Double Dion]

Do you play cards? Let’s hook up a game.As a Canucs fan I was happy to keep those kids. Both are NHL top 9 forwards.

I do agree with you that both those guys are top 9 forwards. I just think you're talking 6-9, not 1-5. The Flames need guys who have homerun potential. Look at our roster, we have a lot of quality role players you can win a cup with, we are just missing 4 star players. The only guy you could say looks like a future star is Wolf. We need guys with some high upside. Brzustewicz has a high ceiling. I do think his offense won't fully translate to the NHL, but I think his defensive work is better than other people think it is.

 

[stampedingviking]

Kuzmenko was far from a contract going bad - Yes it was
1st and Brz are great assets - the 1st is, Brz is a B prospect with major question marks over skating

That could be a haul if Lindholm still struggles - obviously

 

[Bleach Clean]

Lindholm even when he was playing his best wasn't a line driver but he doesn't really need to be on the Canucks.

By play driver, I mean shot differential. I don't mean the main playmaker/creator of the line (Gaudreau).

 

[CraigsList]

I do wonder why we have seen Lindholms numbers go down this season in a contract year, and I wonder if Canucks can fit him in on a long term deal.

I believe I saw Flames fans talk about him asking for 9 million, which he wont be getting. If he is open to staying in Vancouver its not a bad move. In general not big fan of rentals as I dont think they help as much as ppl make it out, but done early like this they do make at least a little sense, and give the team time to utilize them better.

Easy, he’s not a play driver and relied heavily on all star wingers Tkachuk and Gaudreau.

 

[DJJones]

I kind of look at it differently. If Lindholm could drive his own line and he could have the puck on his stick more he'd be a 11 million dollar player. He checks every other box you'd want him to have.

You put him with a winger that likes to carry the puck into the offensive zone he'll do great. Calgary just has a bunch of wingers that play off the center carrying it in.

 

[strattonius]

Calgary is a difficult environment for Lindholm this year. So much talk about his career year with Gaudreau and Tkachuk I don't get the point. Who is going to be surprised if Lindholm finds his game and puts up more points with Pettersson? He's also likely to play with Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser and Miller on PP1.

 

[wetcoast]

heck no, especially with Garland. He is amazing and a line driver.

joshua-garland -Bleuger is probably the best 3rd line in the league and thats mostly because of Garland. He drives that bus. If you watch them play , as soon as that lines recovers the puck, they instantly look for Garland so that he can make the play and drive possesion.

Joshua is great. fantastic around the net and great forchecker but if he prices himself out, we have guys like Podkilzin who is marinating in the NHL ready to take his spot.


Garland is irreplacable. Mikhayev is clearly not healthy yet. There's lots of evidence that shows it takes about 18 months until an athlete fully performs to his previous ability after sustaining that knee injury. I think he is only 12 months removed from surgery. Im willing to give him until next year. We need to get another forward though to bump Mikh out of the top 6. He still does alot of things well without the puck.

Ideally Vasili Podkolzin can take a top 6 RW spot and the Canucks can move Garland and resign Lindholm and everyone they need to resign but time will tell.

 

[Breakers]

only thing that really concerned me with Bryz was that he willingly gave up possession on puck retreivals........ like all the time.

He has 3 or 4 steps on a forchecker, then he would pull a parachute and say "I insist, after you"

Other canuck fans who watched him more than me said it was because he is tired from the minutes he plays, but havent seen other prospects do that

But that was the biggest concern with him, otherwise a great prospect

reminded me of Nylander in the playoffs for all those years that leaf fans despised about his game, calling it a "business decision" instead of taking a hit

 

[LuLover96]

listen. They didnt match it 2 days ago, doesnt mean they wont match it at the deadline. Its not like Lindholm will come out of his hot streak and turn into a pumpkin btw now and then, his value is already set from his body of work in previous seasons. The correct move for Conroy is hold, because I bet you money, he, like the rest of us did not anticipate Jets to be this desperate. Now imagine how Macfarland is feeling?

Canucks told the Flames that they wanted the deal done that day, and there’s a good chance that offer would no longer be on the table afterwards. By holding him, conroy would’ve taken the risk that he wouldn’t get the offer or prospect he wanted (Brzustewicz), and would’ve had to go to another team.

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

Easy, he’s not a play driver and relied heavily on all star wingers Tkachuk and Gaudreau.

You sound a bit sour. While I'm not saying those guys didn't have an impact on Lindholm Jonny hasn't replicated that season as the "guy" on his line either.
The fact is Lindholm is going to have the best forward he's ever played with next to EP and dman in Quinn along with the best pp group he's ever been a part of.

He doesn't need to be a line driver, he only needs to mesh with EP and aside from that, his biggest value to the nucks is going to be his defensive game, pk and FO.

He literally checks every box since our 3 biggest needs are a linemate for EP, a right shot centre, an elite FO guy and pker. On paper there wasn't a better fit out there.

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

Canucks told the Flames that they wanted the deal done that day, and there’s a good chance that offer would no longer be on the table afterwards. By holding him, conroy would’ve taken the risk that he wouldn’t get the offer or prospect he wanted (Brzustewicz), and would’ve had to go to another team.

That's not the way the gms described it. Brew was the prospect that JR never once said wasn't available for a rental, Lekkerimakki, Willander, were the non Abby guys that werent bandied about and reading between the lines Podz, Raty and EP2 were valued more by the nucks management but Conroy knowing the top two weren't on the table Brew was their preference anyway so it worked for both teams.
They had been talking for days and apparently getting Kuzmenko to agree took a couple of days and once he was on board Alvin called offered the additional pick and Jurmo and that pushed it over the top.
Brew and the 1st were already agreed upon and Kuzmenko was better than any roster player the other teams offered and since a contract coming back was necessary in any deal and no retention was needed it worked out for both teams.

The biggest risk for Conroy was Lindholm getting injured.

This was a really unique situation where for the nucks it was quanity and dealing a prospect from a place of strength while from the flames pov they got quanity but for their needs it was also quality. Just a good hockey trade where the pieces fit from both sides, where as the other teams just couldn't match.

Like the avs fan Mcjedi said, they didn't have a prospect that was on Brew's level and didn't want to part with the ones higher ranked like Ritchie.

 

[Volica]

I think this is a solid deal for both sides.
Lindholm is a great fit playing with high end skill; and will be an important part of the Canucks’ top 6.

Flames got an absolute haul back, including another asset they could in theory turn into more picks/prospects. Also putting up the flag of rebuild/retool is important. Flames fans have had enough ugly middle for a few lifetimes lol.

 

[Double Dion]

That's not the way the gms described it. Brew was the prospect that JR never once said wasn't available for a rental, Lekkerimakki, Willander, were the non Abby guys that werent bandied about and reading between the lines Podz, Raty and EP2 were valued more by the nucks management but Conroy knowing the top two weren't on the table Brew was their preference anyway so it worked for both teams.
They had been talking for days and apparently getting Kuzmenko to agree took a couple of days and once he was on board Alvin called offered the additional pick and Jurmo and that pushed it over the top.
Brew and the 1st were already agreed upon and Kuzmenko was better than any roster player the other teams offered and since a contract coming back was necessary in any deal and no retention was needed it worked out for both teams.

The biggest risk for Conroy was Lindholm getting injured.

This was a really unique situation where for the nucks it was quanity and dealing a prospect from a place of strength while from the flames pov they got quanity but for their needs it was also quality. Just a good hockey trade where the pieces fit from both sides, where as the other teams just couldn't match.

Like the avs fan Mcjedi said, they didn't have a prospect that was on Brew's level and didn't want to part with the ones higher ranked like Ritchie.

If the Canucks value Raty and EP2 more than Brzustewicz their front office are idiots. Since their front office aren't idiots it's likely they had to give up Bru to get the player they wanted. I could see a world where they value Podkolzin more highly based on their timeline. But if they valued Raty and EP2 more then they are dumb.