Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CGY] Elias Lindholm for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond. 2024 4th

[HighLifeMan]

I think this would have been a win win if the Flames got someone like Hoglander or Podkolzin over Bruz.

Outside of the big two, Brzustewicz was easily the guy to target from a Calgary perspective whether it works out or not.

Personally I don't see more than third liner upside out of Hoglander or Podkolzin. I understand why the Canucks would have no desire in removing a piece like Hoglander from it's current roster as he's currently a big part of their success, but Podkolzin is an asset I am extremely happy Conroy stayed away from. The guy has had pedestrian production at every level and to me is not projectable as a top six forward at the NHL level. We also have a severe overabundance of left handed wingers in the organization.

Brzustewicz may be further away but his upside is more intriguing and he fills a much larger need for this organization.

 

[Bond]

Anyone comparing the Lindholm/Monahan deals need their heads checked. One was an overpayment because their top C is out and needed someone to fill the void. The center market is also shit.

Chicken and the egg. Feels like the Jets panicked after missing out on Lindholm. Would the offer have gotten seriously better for the Flames if Monahan got a 1st back first? I am not sure.
Makes me optimistic for a Tanev trade though

 

[Raistlin]

Who did you have as our top 5 prospects? Imo:

1. Lekkerimaki
2. Willander
3. Pettersson
4. Bruztewicz
5. Silovs/Raty/Bains

1.Willander
2.Lekkerimaki
3.Podkolzin
4.EP(D)
5.Raty
6.Brzu/Bains

Anyone comparing the Lindholm/Monahan deals need their heads checked. One was an overpayment because their top C is out and needed someone to fill the void. The center market is also shit.

Schiefele will be back after the ASB, Conroy should understand the center market is horrible, anticipate, and play a waiting game toward TDL until other GMs panic then.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

That's one way to spin it, sure, and it very well may be true but I think it's a little early to say that the Canucks have found a winning system. Much is yet to be proven or decided.

Some players just don't work under certain coaches as well which is another very possible outcome.

Winning so far this season, yes, Stanley Cup winning, yet to be determined.

I honestly think Kuz can still be a 25-25 player, I don't think he will ever do what he did last year again though.

 

[CraigsList]

1.Willander
2.Lekkerimaki
3.Podkolzin
4.EP(D)
5.Raty
6.Brzu/Bains


Schiefele will be back after the ASB, Conroy should understand the center market is horrible, anticipate, and play a waiting game toward TDL until other GMs panic then.

You act like Conroy didn’t do that. He circled back to everyone, stated Vancouver’s offer, they didn’t match it, he went with the deal. Hence Winnipeg overpaying for Monahan.

 

[Raistlin]

You act like Conroy didn’t do that. He circled back to everyone, stated Vancouver’s offer, they didn’t match it, he went with the deal. Hence Winnipeg overpaying for Monahan.

listen. They didnt match it 2 days ago, doesnt mean they wont match it at the deadline. Its not like Lindholm will come out of his hot streak and turn into a pumpkin btw now and then, his value is already set from his body of work in previous seasons. The correct move for Conroy is hold, because I bet you money, he, like the rest of us did not anticipate Jets to be this desperate. Now imagine how Macfarland is feeling?

 

[DFF]

1.Willander
2.Lekkerimaki
3.Podkolzin
4.EP(D)
5.Raty
6.Brzu/Bains


Schiefele will be back after the ASB, Conroy should understand the center market is horrible, anticipate, and play a waiting game toward TDL until other GMs panic then.

The first 2 yes. No reason to hold out for the rest. But I doubt teams would trade their best prospects for rental. The Habs just got a pick.

People forget, Conroy still has at least 2 , maybe 3-4 deals to make. He has to start somewhere

 

[Bond]

listen. They didnt match it 2 days ago, doesnt mean they wont match it at the deadline. Its not like Lindholm will come out of his hot streak and turn into a pumpkin btw now and then, his value is already set from his body of work in previous seasons. The correct move for Conroy is hold, because I bet you money, he, like the rest of us did not anticipate Jets to be this desperate. Now imagine how Macfarland is feeling?

lol hot streak? Lindholm was playing like a pumpkin. It seemed pretty well known in hockey circles that Monahan was going to get a 1st. I like most fans just didn't believe it.

 

[Bond]

1.Willander
2.Lekkerimaki
3.Podkolzin
4.EP(D)
5.Raty
6.Brzu/Bains

Raty and Podkolzin are zero interest to the Flames.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Raty and Podkolzin are zero interest to the Flames.

Thats why i think the Canucks came out as bandits,

organizationally that is 100% the depth chart of value for the Canucks prospects.

The fact that Calgary didnt have interest in guys in our top 5 made them an even better trading partner.

 

[Shareefruck]

It is blown out of proportion. On PP1, he was always one of the two options on the bump-back, and was frequently carrying the puck into the offensive zone. At 5on5, he did it a lot more without Gaudreau, as Gaudreau was the main playmaker/distributor. This is part of him not being the 'catalyst' - he can make good plays, and he can shoot the puck very well, but he isn't that dynamic guy who carries the puck and makes things happen. He can and he does carry the puck well, however. It shouldn't be a fear. He definitely doesn't handle the puck like a hand grenade or something - he does stick handle well and can evade checkers, and he is good at finding passing lanes and can thread the puck. Gaudreau and Tkachuk were both better passers, but Lindholm was better at carrying the puck than Tkachuk, but Gaudreau was the catalyst in terms of playmaking/distribution. Since they left, Lindholm has struggled. I imagine he won't struggle given who he is going to play with.

Right, that's what I expected. It sounds like he's only being called that because his puck-carrying is being unfairly compared to a puck-carrying dynamo like Gaudreau, but the description makes it sound like he's entirely an on-his-stick-off-his-stick player. Would it be safe to say that he'd still probably be not significantly less/worse of a puck carrier than any forward on the Canucks not named Miller or Petterson? At least in the same ballpark as Kuzmenko, Hoglander, or Boeser (who I wouldn't describe as non-puck carriers either)?

 

[SensontheRush]

Oh man, look at the numbers deeper, his shooting % was completely unsustainable from last year, many of us knew he would regress this year. Winning hockey players play hockey at both ends, he won't. Not a knee jerk reaction at all. He wasn't a fit for a winning hockey club, and we needed his 5.5 million off the book. Period.

If the Canucks didn't explode into contention this year, they aren't trading him as a cap dump. Period. It is a knee-jerk reaction in the sense that less than one season of play is still considered the "short run". Not really interested in arguing semantics with you TBH.

 

[UrbanImpact]

This is also a very good reason as to why you always draft BPA.

With the Canucks having Hughes and Hronek, Bruz would never see a minute of PP time in the org in the future. He will obviously needs PP time because offence is the biggest thing he brings to a team.

Canucks still drafted him, then sold him at his highest value.

Great for Bruz too as I'm sure it will open up more opportunities for him in CGY.

 

[Bond]

Thats why i think the Canucks came out as bandits,

organizationally that is 100% the depth chart of value for the Canucks prospects.

The fact that Calgary didnt have interest in guys in our top 5 made them an even better trading partner.

I don't think the Flames or Canucks came out like bandits. Fans always try to assign a winner and a loser to a trade. This one was win win for both.

I am also guessing lists would have looked a lot more like this one in the summer.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/vancouver-canucks/analysis/vancouver-canucks-top-10-prospects-january-2024-edition

 

[Shareefruck]

I don't think the Flames or Canucks came out like bandits. Fans always try to assign a winner and a loser to a trade. This one was win win for both.

I am also guessing lists would have looked a lot more like this one in the summer.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/vancouver-canucks/analysis/vancouver-canucks-top-10-prospects-january-2024-edition

I will say, though.... You know how every team has a go-to package of assets that they don't really mind or feel that bad about letting go of, and as a result, annoyingly include go-to combinations of them in quantity over quality trade talk threads, to the point where it gets memed by other fanbases rolling their eyes at it?

Kind of feels like that's the exact package it took to obtain Lindholm.

 

[UrbanImpact]

I don't think the Flames or Canucks came out like bandits. Fans always try to assign a winner and a loser to a trade. This one was win win for both.

I am also guessing lists would have looked a lot more like this one in the summer.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/vancouver-canucks/analysis/vancouver-canucks-top-10-prospects-january-2024-edition

That list is somewhat accurate.

Id put Bruz on the same tier value wise as guys like Bains, Pettersson and below guys like Willander, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Lekkerimaki.

I personally would have hated it more if Elias Pettersson (defence) was traded over Bruz.

Bruz has a higher ceiling and more risk, but I loved the way Pettersson played at the WJC and how he is playing vs men in Sweden. Not to mention he is 6'4 and mean as hell.

Him and Bruz are probably on same tier for me.

 

[Shareefruck]

That list is somewhat accurate.

Id put Bruz on the same tier value wise as guys like Bains, Pettersson and below guys like Willander, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Lekkerimaki.

I personally would have hated it more if Elias Pettersson (defence) was traded over Bruz.

Bruz has a higher ceiling and more risk, but I loved the way Pettersson played at the WJC and how he is playing vs men in Sweden. Not to mention he is 6'4 and mean as hell.

Him and Bruz are probably on same tier for me.

Yeah, people are always penciling Elias Pettersson into future D lineups, while Bruz is usually viewed as more of a maybe.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

If the Canucks didn't explode into contention this year, they aren't trading him as a cap dump. Period. It is a knee-jerk reaction in the sense that less than one season of play is still considered the "short run". Not really interested in arguing semantics with you TBH.

Yah they are, he didn't mesh with the coach, and the coach isn't getting fired and he isn't some superstar prospect who needs to be given more time. He was scratched last year for the same reason, so this isn't some new revelation of his lack of play in his own end.

He shot a ridiculously high and unsustainable shooting % (again, since this doesn't seem to be computing for you), his contract is too high for someone who is more of a 50 point player and won't play in both ends.

He quickly (yes it was quick) became a detriment and needed to be sold.


Don't want an argument? Then don't make uninformed statements.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Yeah, people are always penciling Elias Pettersson into future D lineups, while Bruz is usually viewed as more of a maybe.

I think its because the risk is much higher for Bruz especially because of his average skating.

but if both Pettersson and Bruz hit their potential then Bruz is way more valuable.

Pettersson is already a manchild, its safe to project him a #4-6 Shutdown dman , like an Ian Cole type.

If Bruz improves his skating and agility and he hits his potential, he could be a top 4 Dman that point produces.

 

[Shareefruck]

If the Canucks didn't explode into contention this year, they aren't trading him as a cap dump. Period. It is a knee-jerk reaction in the sense that less than one season of play is still considered the "short run". Not really interested in arguing semantics with you TBH.

I think the fanbase likes the guy so much that they wanted to exercise a lot of patience with and give him as much of a chance as humanly possible, but I don't think your sentiment is true, especially considering how dire the Canucks cap situation is and all the guys they need to re-sign and will want raises. It does hurt to say because of how awesome he was last year, but if trading Kuzmenko as a straight cap dump is the difference that allows a guy like Dakota Joshua to be re-signed, you take the deal and run. It's more about that than the contention window, IMO.

I have faith that he'll bounce back, and I don't feel that strongly about the shot percentage arguments, but he was really playing his way off the line-up in a bad way and forcing management's hand. Even in limited minutes on the fourth line, he was occasionally still a liability hurting the team with his blunders. It was tough to watch.

 

[Bleach Clean]

They didn't "have" a 2C for the first two-thirds of this season and appear to be just fine. IMO they don't have the cap flexibility to justify this expense, and have much more important uses to put that cap space to in the coming couple of seasons. My evaluation of Lindholm is also that he's very overrated, he's declining, and needs to be put next to high-level players to get the production you want from him. I like the fit for this playoffs, and then they can part ways.

Again, I think the trade package was market value, but not exorbitant. We may or may not think of Kuz as a cap dump, but his trade value was approaching it. I don't think you get much for him back alone, maybe a 3rd (probably worse). The trade is pretty much a late late 1st, a bunch of low value assets, and Hunter B (a good but not elite prospect). This shakes out to be roughly the usual price for the top rental at every deadline.

Fair enough. I don't think we are far apart in how we view the deal, my reticence is largely tied to the cratering of Kuzmenko's value. (Which was realized now as a function of the trade, instead of before or later)

As to cap flexibility: To me, there's not a world where they can justify keeping Mikheyev and Garland while saying they don't have the money to re-sign Lindholm. Despite his decline, he's still a better player than either of those two wingers. Therefore, the decision to re-sign him is clear. If VAN instead did not have substantial money committed to non-essential players, then I would agree with you.

 

[Rubi]

Delete. Wrong thread

 

[bossram]

Fair enough. I don't think we are far apart in how we view the deal, my reticence is largely tied to the cratering of Kuzmenko's value. (Which was realized now as a function of the trade, instead of before or later)

As to cap flexibility: To me, there's not a world where they can justify keeping Mikheyev and Garland while saying they don't have the money to re-sign Lindholm. Despite his decline, he's still a better player than either of those two wingers. Therefore, the decision to re-sign him is clear. If VAN instead did not have substantial money committed to non-essential players, then I would agree with you.

I'm open to moving Mikheyev for sure. But there is a significant difference between the cap commitments of Mikheyev/Garland and what Lindholm will command. Lindholm will be receiving an AAV around $8M (maybe more!) with 7ish years attached, starting at age 30. That is much different than the less than $5M hits for Garland/Mikheyev that only have two years left after this season. Garland is also the clear driver of the Canucks very effective 3rd line. I wouldn't trade him.

I'm not a fan of Lindholm's recent trajectory and aging risk. I've said before, I think this is a very good fit as a rental and they should leave it at that. Lindholm's next contract will be a negative value deal from Day 1.

 

[Bond]

I think its because the risk is much higher for Bruz especially because of his average skating.

but if both Pettersson and Bruz hit their potential then Bruz is way more valuable.

Pettersson is already a manchild, its safe to project him a #4-6 Shutdown dman , like an Ian Cole type.

If Bruz improves his skating and agility and he hits his potential, he could be a top 4 Dman that point produces.

Risk/reward is way higher on Brzustewicz and the swing the Flames needed to make.

I'm not a fan of Lindholm's recent trajectory and aging risk. I've said before, I think this is a very good fit as a rental and they should leave it at that. Lindholm's next contract will be a negative value deal from Day 1.

I agree. The worst case scenario for me was him re-signing in Calgary.

 

[SensontheRush]

Yah they are, he didn't mesh with the coach, and the coach isn't getting fired and he isn't some superstar prospect who needs to be given more time. He was scratched last year for the same reason, so this isn't some new revelation of his lack of play in his own end.

He shot a ridiculously high and unsustainable shooting % (again, since this doesn't seem to be computing for you), his contract is too high for someone who is more of a 50 point player and won't play in both ends.

He quickly (yes it was quick) became a detriment and needed to be sold.


Don't want an argument? Then don't make uninformed statements.

I really don't get what you aren't getting.

You are saying that no matter what, EVEN IF the Canucks shat the bed this year immensely, they are still going to pay a team to take Kuzmenko off their hands? Of course not. The context arose that turned him into a (necessary) cap dump. They would have given him the chance to make himself either keepable or a desirable trade asset yet again.

That's all I've been really trying to say. I might as well have been interacting with a brick wall all this time.

If the team was aware that he was SUCH a liability as you are describing, and with an easily ascertained down year incoming, then perhaps they should have traded him last year? Seems like you are proving my point that it was a blunder to trade him when you've forced yourself into a corner regarding this once valuable asset.