GDT: UFA Frenzy 2024 - We're ALL Gonna Die

[ndp]

sexual habits of dieties.

Link please…

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Link please…

Check the Lounge thread.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Depends on the frequency of how often they do it and the rigidity in their negotiations. And everything we’ve heard from…literally everyone…is that Dundon is a real piece of work when it comes to negotiations. We’ve heard it from outside sources, we’ve heard it from inside sources, we’ve heard it from RBA and Tulsky.

It only matters in the end if it winds up costing us in the long run. And while it wasn’t exactly smooth sailing up to this point (Hello Aho Offersheet), I think the RBA negotiations immediately followed by the Guenztal one were the first real sign we’ve seen that Dundon could really hurt this organization if he doesn’t change his tactics in that regard.

True, but in the end:
1) In hindsight, Aho's deal worked out swimmingly. if we had signed him to an 8 year deal in the first place instead of the 5 year offer sheet, he'd be under that deal until he was 30 and his next extension would have been from 30-38 (Like Slavin). Likely to be fall-off in those last 3-4 years. Now, he's starting his 8 year extension and it goes from 27-35. Much less chance of him dropping off in the last 3-4 years.

2) RBA is still the coach, right? So there's not really harm.

3) Still unproven that it was his negotiation tactics as to why Guentzal left.

 

[NotOpie]

I don’t really have a great feeling about Don’s departure. Watching the Tulsky portion of the interview and his reaction to the question, I think they were all caught by surprise and I do think that’s interesting. They all know each other well and know each others circumstances. For Tulsky to be surprised I think something did happen that worked as an impetus.

Hmmm.....I guess I just have different experiences. As somebody who has been hired away from a current job by a competitor, you just don't talk about those negotiations or even your intentions until the deal is done and the job offer inked. There's way too many things that can upset the proverbial apple cart...not the least of which is your existing employer trying to negotiate with you to stay. That's a painful and almost always fruitless situation. So I don't take anything from Tulsky's or Rod's statements about Don's departure as anything but SOP.

Also, I listened to the entire podcast and don't recall Rod saying anything about him not liking Dundon's "negotiations". I do recall that he said he didn't like the results of not being able to keep guys he valued. And in the end, he closed that part of the conversation with a version of, "....but we all know it's a business".

I found Rod’s statement about DW being a buffer and the way he said it very telling about what it’s like to work for TD. At least to be the guy in Rod’s shoes.

I found this to actually be somewhat humorous and think that's how Rod meant it. I believe you have to pair that statement with GMET's statement about the number of phone calls he gets in a day....with a couple of dozen of them being from the owner (I'm paraphrasing here). They both know that Tom Dundon is deeply involved with the team. In the past, I believe it was Rod who said that Tom came in not knowing a great deal about hockey but how impressive it was how he had learned so much in a short period of time (that might have actually been from Don W.).

Tom Dundon might be an asshole. He might be a prick to work for. He might be a bastard to negotiate with. But he clearly loves this team and wants it to be successful. If he's doing things to harm the team, I have faith that will be communicated and, if he still wants to maintain success, he'll modify his behavior. Currently, I don't see any of these negotiations as having truly hurt the team (we can speculate about Guentzel's contract, but there's been no actual reporting other than speculative rumors). In the end, I like that a maverick owns our team, shake's up the NHL old boys network, and ultimately is invested in putting the best team possible on the ice.

 

[geehaad]

big sexy

 

[Identity404]

RE: Dundon

You can remove the billionaire from the subprime auto lending business

But you can’t remove the subprime auto lending practices from the billionaire

 

[Blueline Bomber]

True, but in the end:
1) In hindsight, Aho's deal worked out swimmingly. if we had signed him to an 8 year deal in the first place instead of the 5 year offer sheet, he'd be under that deal until he was 30 and his next extension would have been from 30-38 (Like Slavin). Likely to be fall-off in those last 3-4 years. Now, he's starting his 8 year extension and it goes from 27-35. Much less chance of him dropping off in the last 3-4 years.

2) RBA is still the coach, right? So there's not really harm.

3) Still unproven that it was his negotiation tactics as to why Guentzal left.

RBA is still the coach, but the Ovies interview shortly afterwards made it seem like that was up in the air for a bit. And that’s not something I think should ever have come into play.



Mentions he loves coaching here, doesn’t want to coach elsewhere, wants to see it out with the guys, but follows it up with “Thankfully, we didn’t have to get to where…I think…another situation might have been enticing.” And then mentions the “hiccup” at the end of the negotiations that “everyone got wind of”, which ultimately helped push towards getting the contract done.

Stuff like that, where a no-brainer signing becomes an ordeal because of the negotiation process, that’s harmful. It may not be immediately impactful, but it builds up and it definitely provides a reputation,

 

[MinJaBen]

Ah, the off-season.

Yesterday we spent 4 pages arguing the merits of Necas not signing an extension based on a tweet from noted twitter insider HasbolaCanes (admittedly, probably 20% of the posts were mine). Today, based on a press conference, we've spent a few pages discussing all the possible reasons why Waddell left, and how we are sick of Dundon because of it.

I love how Mr. HF26 Analytics is now "probably" about the numbers....

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

RBA is still the coach, but the Ovies interview shortly afterwards made it seem like that was up in the air for a bit. And that’s not something I think should ever have come into play.



Mentions he loves coaching here, doesn’t want to coach elsewhere, wants to see it out with the guys, but follows it up with “Thankfully, we didn’t have to get to where…I think…another situation might have been enticing.” And then mentions the “hiccup” at the end of the negotiations that “everyone got wind of”, which ultimately helped push towards getting the contract done.

Stuff like that, where a no-brainer signing becomes an ordeal because of the negotiation process, that’s harmful. It may not be immediately impactful, but it builds up and it definitely provides a reputation,

I was never in doubt about Rod coaching here. Negotiating is just that, negotiating. Hiccups occur, each side tries to use it to their advantage, etc..

I'm not going to get worked up about what might or might not have happened and worry about Dundon's negotiation tactics.

No doubt Dundon is a tough negotiator, I won't deny that. I just haven't seen the dire consequences you are alluding to. Maybe someday they'll occur, and if they do, he'll have to adapt to be successful.

 

[Joe McGrath]

View attachment 893907

Titf***er!

 

[QuebeCaniac]

Comtois probably leaving for KHL according to a local Québec blogger. I don't understand why he was not part of our plan for this upcoming season.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Comtois probably leaving for KHL according to a local Québec blogger. I don't understand why he was not part of our plan for this upcoming season.

he lacks consistent compete level which is even worse when we you arent a good skater or have any elite skill set. without consistent compete, he isnt a 4th line player.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Comtois probably leaving for KHL according to a local Québec blogger. I don't understand why he was not part of our plan for this upcoming season.

Probably the same reason he's headed to the KHL.

On top of that, between Staal, Martinook, Fast, Carrier, Drury, Lemieux, Robinson, Roslovic, etc.. we already have too many bottom 6 & 13th forwards.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I was never in doubt about Rod coaching here. Negotiating is just that, negotiating. Hiccups occur, each side tries to use it to their advantage, etc..

I'm not going to get worked up about what might or might not have happened and worry about Dundon's negotiation tactics.

No doubt Dundon is a tough negotiator, I won't deny that. I just haven't seen the dire consequences you are alluding to. Maybe someday they'll occur, and if they do, he'll have to adapt to be successful.

Depends if you believe his negotiation tactics had an affect on whether Guentzel signed with us or not. Considering we were in active negotiations with him, and apparently participating in those negotiations held up money that we could have used to sign other leaving UFAs, I don't buy the idea that Guentzel was never going to sign with us. I think there was a very real possibility that he would have, but we missed our opportunity to do so throughout the negotiation process.

 

[bleedgreen]

Probably the same reason he's headed to the KHL.

On top of that, between Staal, Martinook, Fast, Carrier, Drury, Lemieux, Robinson, Roslovic, etc.. we already have too many bottom 6 & 13th forwards.

I think Rod thinks of bottom six forwards the way some people in CO think of having too many bikes or skis. No such thing.

 

[raynman]

I think Rod thinks of bottom six forwards the way some people in CO think of having too many bikes or skis. No such thing.

The formula for finding how many bottom 6 forwards or bikes is N+1. N being the current total in your quiver.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

I also am saddened to lose Guentzel, Skjei, and Pesce.

We probably could have made Guentzel work, but it would have been at the expense of a Necas trade, perhaps at slightly less than Necas's current value since we'd be cap-strapped and needing to sign Jarvis. (Edit - I think Guenzel was dead set on moving on from what we know now. Oh well.)

Signing Skjei + Pesce would be great, but it would cost $12.5M caphit for the next 6 years, until each player is 36. That much $$ allocated to the D would almost certainly lock us into a 2-year bridge with Jarvis, and would prevent us from later locking in Nikishin and Morrow down the road.

It's Rod's job to love the guys he has, and it's Tulsky/Dundon's job to be ruthless bastards so that we can still be competitive in 2027. I hate it but that's probably best practice. I certainly think Tulsky is doing the best with what he has since he took over.

2nd edit - I've also always wondered why some D just look better in our system. It will be really interesting to see if Skjei and Pesce stay as good as they were with us on their new teams. I'd bet they would be. The optimistic me will think that Ghost and Walker won't be as elite as Skjei+Pesce, but that they will also play well enough that we won't miss them terribly.

 

[bleedgreen]

The formula for finding how many bottom 6 forwards or bikes is N+1. N being the current total in your quiver.

I knew I used that line here sometime in the last six months so I didn’t today, I’m glad you did.

 

[NotOpie]

My take on our defense is that we won't be quite as good "defensively" but we should be a bit better, in aggregate, getting offense from the back end. I think Gostisbehere and Walker together will add up to more offense that Skjei and Pesce. It comes down to whether the added offense will make up for what appears to be lesser defensive acumen.

 

[Rick Davis]

It's Rod's job to love the guys he has, and it's Tulsky/Dundon's job to be ruthless bastards so that we can still be competitive in 2027. I hate it but that's probably best practice. I certainly think Tulsky is doing the best with what he has since he took

Well stated…Dundon may be a prick but: he didn’t move the team to Houston and he literally transformed a moribund franchise into one of the league’s best teams almost overnight. If nothing else I will always be grateful to him for ending the decade of darkness.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Depends if you believe his negotiation tactics had an affect on whether Guentzel signed with us or not. Considering we were in active negotiations with him, and apparently participating in those negotiations held up money that we could have used to sign other leaving UFAs, I don't buy the idea that Guentzel was never going to sign with us. I think there was a very real possibility that he would have, but we missed our opportunity to do so throughout the negotiation process.

Unless we think either Skjei or Pesce would have signed with us for less then they got on the market it's hard to argue Guentzel tied up the money. They had to know well in advance of July 1 what they were getting offered on the market with the Jersey news for Pesce and the report that widespread tampering was ongoing and allowed.

 

[Stickpucker]

My take on our defense is that we won't be quite as good "defensively" but we should be a bit better, in aggregate, getting offense from the back end. I think Gostisbehere and Walker together will add up to more offense that Skjei and Pesce. It comes down to whether the added offense will make up for what appears to be lesser defensive acumen.

I think we'll get better at denying zone entries and transitioning to offense but worse once an opponent is in the zone and at clearing the crease. The latter of which we already weren't amazing at.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

2nd edit - I've also always wondered why some D just look better in our system. It will be really interesting to see if Skjei and Pesce stay as good as they were with us on their new teams. I'd bet they would be. The optimistic me will think that Ghost and Walker won't be as elite as Skjei+Pesce, but that they will also play well enough that we won't miss them terribly.

I think Pesce will be fine with NJ unless he is truly falling off with wear and tear. His game doesn't seem to be one that relies on a solid partner and he'll have Markstrom behind him.

Skjei could be interesting depending who he ends up with in Nashville. Clearly he's a better D-man then when he arrived in Raleigh but not having the bedrock that is Pesce next to him will make things interesting.

 

[MinJaBen]

I think we'll get better at denying zone entries and transitioning to offense but worse once an opponent is in the zone and at clearing the crease. The latter of which we already weren't amazing at.

So we improved an area we are already strong at (and where there are probably marginal gains to be made) while getting weaker at an area that we were already weak at in the first place?

Well, that is one way to offseason...

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Unless we think either Skjei or Pesce would have signed with us for less then they got on the market it's hard to argue Guentzel tied up the money. They had to know well in advance of July 1 what they were getting offered on the market with the Jersey news for Pesce and the report that widespread tampering was ongoing and allowed.

I'm just going off RBA's comments from his recent interview. He seems to believe that negotiating with Guentzel may have kept us from signing one of our walking UFAs. And if that's true, then failing to keep Guentzel and losing our UFAs would definitely count as consequences of Dundon's negotiation tactics.