Player Discussion Tyler Seguin

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Here's the deal man. No one is really making fun of you guys with the whole "it doesn't count", etc. and your Bruins fans aren't the only ones that would be the butt of the joke even if we did. We're just having some good fun. You're literally arguing with people that agree with you. Trade's a win-win, and we got the best single player in the deal.

Why is everyone's jimmies so rustled?
 
Here's the deal man. No one is really making fun of you guys with the whole "it doesn't count", etc. and your Bruins fans aren't the only ones that would be the butt of the joke even if we did. We're just having some good fun. You're literally arguing with people that agree with you. Trade's a win-win, and we got the best single player in the deal.

Why is everyone's jimmies so rustled?

I didn't feel like it was an argument at all, I thought we were just having a conversation. A couple of idiots with no reading comprehension whatsoever got rustled, but the majority of you were fine.

Anyway, this is my last post in here, at least for now. Bruins series starts tonight, ****ing finally. Now the actual playoffs begin. Have a lovely day everyone, I will make sure to not let the door hit me in the ass on my way out.
 
Part of it is just that the Stars haven't had a trade work out exceptionally well in quite some time, probably since the Lehtonen/Vishnevskiy swap. And you can't really argue with Thrashers fans about that. So people are understandably excited.

The other disconnect is more fundamental in terms of how you see the players involved. After watching Seguin this year I think you could make the case that there's no valid rationale for trading this level of player, ever. Not cap space, not depth, not attitude, not culture. No team is better off by subtracting an elite talent. Even winning a Cup wouldn't justify it on its own... Loui and/or R. Smith would have to be major factors in that Cup win, like Conn Smythe level factors. With Seguin the Bruins really wouldn't have any kind of window, they'd likely compete for the next decade+.
 
Since we are re-hashing arguments, any re-evaluation on Taylor vs Tyler? I mean, Hall is an excellent player but I'm not sure he has the level of impact Seguin has had this year. Actually that he scored 80 points in that caustic ****hole of an environment called Edmonton is pretty impressive. In my mind it is starting to look a bit like a dead heat between the two, it'll be interesting to see their levels of production next year. I won't be surprised if Seguin hits 90.
 
Part of it is just that the Stars haven't had a trade work out exceptionally well in quite some time, probably since the Lehtonen/Vishnevskiy swap. And you can't really argue with Thrashers fans about that. So people are understandably excited.

The other disconnect is more fundamental in terms of how you see the players involved. After watching Seguin this year I think you could make the case that there's no valid rationale for trading this level of player, ever. Not cap space, not depth, not attitude, not culture. No team is better off by subtracting an elite talent. Even winning a Cup wouldn't justify it on its own... Loui and/or R. Smith would have to be major factors in that Cup win, like Conn Smythe level factors. With Seguin the Bruins really wouldn't have any kind of window, they'd likely compete for the next decade+.

I get being excited I didn't say anything about you should not be excited.

Seguin's play so far, has surprised nobody in Boston who actually has a clue. He has the skillset, there was no question about his skillset, none. And for him to go to Dallas, be in a system that doesn't put the emphasis on defensive responsibility that Boston does, and to play center, Peter Chiarelli and every rational, level headed fan in Boston knew he'd put up great numbers.

I disagree with you about no team being better by subtracting an elite talent. Because if that talent is paid 6 million dollars and they don't produce goals in the playoffs, then that money is better used on someone who will. I hate to use the cliche from Miracle, but it's really true. It's not about finding the best players, it's about finding the right ones. The Bruins got rid of Phil Kessel, a 36 goal scorer in Julien's system, a guy who replicated that production in the playoffs, and a year later won the Stanley Cup without ever really replacing his goal production/output. I don't think that Seguin would have become what he has the chance to become in Dallas. If I did, then I would be up in arms about the trade, but I'm not. I'm perfectly fine with hit.

As far as Loui/Smith having to have Conn Smythe level factors, I disagree. To win the Stanley Cup, as you guys know, takes contribution from literally everyone. And especially the Bruins, who run all 4 lines all the time, and almost everyone gets equal playing time and they rely on their team depth, second and 3rd line players are just as important as the first line guys. There may be guys who stand out, but everyone contributes. It's why I look at Rich Peveley as a demi god. It's why I look at Greg Campbell as a demi god, hell it's why I look at Tyler Seguin as a demi god. Most people say that Seguin was a non factor in the 2011 Finals, that he only contributed in the Lightning series because that's when he scored. That is ignorant, he was on the ice, he contributed in more ways than just scoring. He was as much a part of that team winning as anyone. Then there's the whole butterfly effect thing that I believe in but that's a different story for a different day.

Anyway I know I said that last one was my last post but I don't like ignoring people who take the time to reply in a civilized manner and want to have legitimate discussions. Plus there are still 4 hours until the game, lol.
 
I'm sorry Rational Bruins fan but I'm just confused of what you want to discuss? First it was our jokes that you didn't have any problem with but we should be cautious to eat crow or something. Which to me shows that you didn't really understand what we meant by those jokes and what we were referring to. Now you talk about the trade from a Bruins perspective which, well I have no idea what you are trying to discuss that. I'm confused but apparently that makes me a bad poster and a stupid person or something.
 
I'm sorry Rational Bruins fan but I'm just confused of what you want to discuss? First it was our jokes that you didn't have any problem with but we should be cautious to eat crow or something. Which to me shows that you didn't really understand what we meant by those jokes and what we were referring to. Now you talk about the trade from a Bruins perspective which, well I have no idea what you are trying to discuss that. I'm confused but apparently that makes me a bad poster and a stupid person or something.
My original post covers everything. Everything else I've posted is just answering questions and replying to people who have taken the time to reply to me.

The hypocrisy in these two sentences is unbelievable.
Just because it takes contributions from everyone to win, doesn't mean it's unfair to criticize someone who underperforms in a losing effort.
 
I'm sorry Rational Bruins fan but I'm just confused of what you want to discuss? First it was our jokes that you didn't have any problem with but we should be cautious to eat crow or something. Which to me shows that you didn't really understand what we meant by those jokes and what we were referring to. Now you talk about the trade from a Bruins perspective which, well I have no idea what you are trying to discuss that. I'm confused but apparently that makes me a bad poster and a stupid person or something.

He's trying to discuss everything that has been discussed 1000 times before. We just hit the "Boston knew Seguin would produce" line. Next came the "Bruins are trying to find the right players to win", followed by the Phil Kessel example, I almost forgot about Kessel on the Bruins. Next paragraph is Loui/Smith and how they can help Boston win a cup, awesome! More Bruins!
 
I know I'm just a sunbelt plebeian but it doesn't make sense to me for a team that rolls its lines to not put a 2nd overall drafted center on at least the 3rd line as center.

Seguin's time in Boston seems to be summed up pretty easily: talented center drafted into atypical circumstances gets played on the wing but to the surprise of nobody he doesn't play a winger's game. Cue the trade and all of the hoopla surrounding it.

I'm with piqued. If an elite player falls into your lap you help mold them, you nurture them, you try to understand them as a person, and have faith that it pays off down the line. Maybe that happened in Boston and Seguin couldn't hear the coaches over the sounds of the club music resonating in his ears, who knows.
 
I know I'm just a sunbelt plebeian but it doesn't make sense to me for a team that rolls its lines to not put a 2nd overall drafted center on at least the 3rd line as center.

Seguin's time in Boston seems to be summed up pretty easily: talented center drafted into atypical circumstances gets played on the wing but to the surprise of nobody he doesn't play a winger's game. Cue the trade and all of the hoopla surrounding it.

I'm with piqued. If an elite player falls into your lap you help mold them, you nurture them, you try to understand them as a person, and have faith that it pays off down the line. Maybe that happened in Boston and Seguin couldn't hear the coaches over the sounds of the club music resonating in his ears, who knows.
They did play him at center when Bergeron was injured last year and he was a disaster. You're discrediting the disparage between the type of system the Bruins run and the one that the Stars run. I don't know if you've ever played hockey and are familiar with that kind of thing, but it makes a big difference. I don't expect you to know every little intricate detail about the Bruins' system, either, because obviously you don't watch all of their games. But they tried him at center and it didn't work for them, he is a good defensive player for an offensive guy, but he's not responsible enough defensively to play center for the Bruins. It doesn't mean that he doesn't try, or that he doesn't work hard, or that he's too drunk, it just means that's not his game.

As far as drafting him, that was a 2 person race between him and Hall. Not a single team would've drafted anyone else in those two spots, they took the best player available and he helped them win the Stanley Cup, so it was the right pick. They wanted Hall and even tried trading up for him as rumors suggest, but apparently Edmonton asked for too much. It's an interesting thing to look back on, because the fit for Hall in Boston is so much better as a winger, especially with the muck and grease that Hall plays with, and the fit for Seguin in Edmonton would be so much better as they'd get a potential franchise guy at maybe the most important position. I'm not sold on RNH being that guy for them, he's good, but Seguin's better.

But I wouldn't change anything since it helped win the Bruins the Cup. Would they have won it with Hall? I don't know, but I wouldn't change it. It's just interesting to think about.

Even if he wasn't bad at center for them, he was not going to be a center for the Bruins, with Krejci and Bergeron ahead of him. And there's no point in paying a 3rd line center 6 million, it would handcuff your lines. I think the Bruins did nurture and mold him as much as they possibly could. They turned him into a pretty damn good defensive player for an offensive guy.

I'm not going to speculate on what happened, but whatever it was, they had seen enough. The story about the security guard outside his room in the Toronto series is fact, and came out before Seguin was even traded. That wasn't a smear campaign. After that he clearly got the message because he was better for the rest of the playoffs after that series, but maybe by then it was the last straw? We know about the thing in Winnipeg with his "watch" being mis set because of the timezones, even though that was clearly the Bruins trying to sweep it under the rug because if his watch was mis set because of the time zone, he would've woken up an hour early and not late, but whatever.

Like I said, I do believe the partying stuff is overblown and I think the reason for the trade is just as much on ice stuff as much as it is off ice. Because if a guy plays the way you want him to and produces, then you will do whatever you have to do to put up with and work with whatever is going on off the ice. And all of you have said there hasn't been a trace of any of that in his time in Dallas, and good for him. If that trade woke him up and got him to re-evaluate himself and his career and what he wants to be, then good for him and good for you. I just trust Peter Chiarelli's judgment when he says he's seen enough. They did everything they could with him in Boston, and they chose to go in a different direction.
 
My original post covers everything. Everything else I've posted is just answering questions and replying to people who have taken the time to reply to me.


Just because it takes contributions from everyone to win, doesn't mean it's unfair to criticize someone who underperforms in a losing effort.

Ok. But what is the point of discussing this? This trade has been beaten to death already, all the arguments have been said for all sides. You have been real classy but Stars fans here are just tired of everything Seguin trade, mocking some off the go to lines of Seguin haters is our way off trying to cope with it (1-2-3, alcoholic etc.). I know you are trying to have a civil discussion but it is just no point of doing it. Let's just watch some playoff hockey, Bruin's my east team this year because of Loui.
 
Ok. But what is the point of discussing this? This trade has been beaten to death already, all the arguments have been said for all sides. You have been real classy but Stars fans here are just tired of everything Seguin trade, mocking some off the go to lines of Seguin haters is our way off trying to cope with it (1-2-3, alcoholic etc.). I know you are trying to have a civil discussion but it is just no point of doing it. Let's just watch some playoff hockey, Bruin's my east team this year because of Loui.

Alright I'm not introducing any new points or bringing up any new things starting discussions, I'm just answering people. If nobody wants to talk about it, then just ignore me. But just because a few of you guys don't want to talk about it, doesn't mean that everyone feels that way.
 
Are there players out there that can just step into a position the team hasn't been playing them at with no reps and be really good?
 
I'm not going to speculate on what happened, but whatever it was, they had seen enough. The story about the security guard outside his room in the Toronto series is fact, and came out before Seguin was even traded. That wasn't a smear campaign.

IIRC the story came out after the playoffs, not during. If it came out during the playoffs I will back off, because that would most likely have been journalists digging and doing their job (unless the information was given to them by Bruins employees). If it came out after the playoffs then it was definitely given to the media by the organization and that is the definition of a smear campaign.

Are there players out there that can just step into a position the team hasn't been playing them at with no reps and be really good?

Yeah, remember the first half of the season? He was putting up points but didn't look entirely comfortable at center, especially defensively. He's gotten much better at taking care of his responsibilities as the season has moved along. This gets back to what I was talking about before he came here. I don't know every intricate detail of the Boston system, but in Dallas we've seen offensive-minded centers mesh with defensive-minded coaches and add layers to their game.
 
Since we have seem to shifted from hockey forum into a football forum, I would like to introduce our newest #1 QB

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But for real, Can we already be over discussing this bs and focus on things that really matter. Like what brand of booze will he sporting in his waterbottle tonight?
 
IIRC the story came out after the playoffs, not during. If it came out during the playoffs I will back off, because that would most likely have been journalists digging and doing their job (unless the information was given to them by Bruins employees). If it came out after the playoffs then it was definitely given to the media by the organization and that is the definition of a smear campaign.



Yeah, remember the first half of the season? He was putting up points but didn't look entirely comfortable at center, especially defensively. He's gotten much better at taking care of his responsibilities as the season has moved along. This gets back to what I was talking about before he came here. I don't know every intricate detail of the Boston system, but in Dallas we've seen offensive-minded centers mesh with defensive-minded coaches and add layers to their game.

After the playoffs, but before he was traded. They wouldn't throw their own guy under the bus like that. And since they were first entertaining trading him during the Finals, as seen in their behind the scenes show "Behind The B", that's not something that they are going to leak because it would decrease his trade value.

As far as Seguin at center for the Bruins, he wasn't putting up points, and he was a real liability defensively. Who knows, maybe if he had years to work on it then he could've eventually turned into a good center for the Bruins, but like I said with Krejci and Bergeron ahead of him, and they know what they had in Soderberg all these years, he was going to be a wing for them if he was going to stay there. Going back to my original post, if Seguin was going to be a Bruin and be the player he has the potential to be, it would've been with Krejci and Lucic.

Julien has turned Krejci into a very very responsible defensive player, along with having elite offensive skills. Julien did the same thing with Marc Savard. But there are many differences in the things that Krejci does, especially in one on one puck battles, that Seguin didn't while he was here. Maybe he does them now, I don't know, I haven't seen it though in the Stars games that I have watched.
 
After the playoffs, but before he was traded. They wouldn't throw their own guy under the bus like that. And since they were first entertaining trading him during the Finals, as seen in their behind the scenes show "Behind The B", that's not something that they are going to leak because it would decrease his trade value.

How did the media magically find out about it weeks after it happened? The team leaked the information to grease his exit with the fans. It makes the narrative for trading your stud 21 year old much easier. You can say that's not true because it lowered his trade value but if you look at the return he got one could argue that they could have gotten more for him.
 
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