Prospect Info: Tyler Boucher (F) - PART III

[Golden_Jet]

Took me one hour of research during the draft day in 2021 and I knew the kid would not even play in NHL. And if he does not fight and he doesn't, his hopes to join the league are slim to none. Mann is an absolute garbage as a head scout, the worst in the league. The team does not have funds to pay for a decent talent.

Sounds like your Kreskin

 

[Golden_Jet]

They don't cost a lot to acquire though?

Available every trade deadline and a fully developed version for much less than 10 overall. A late 1st, couple of seconds, or a good prospect. For a player who is probably going to be better than what Boucher turns into.

What, Goodrow cost a first round pick and a player that was drafted in the first round

 

[BondraTime]

What, Goodrow cost a first round pick and a player that was drafted in the first round

Went for a 1st + an undrafted AHL Journeyman, Tampa got a 3rd back as well

His value was that he was signed for another year at 900k, if he cost 2+ million he wouldn't ave been a target for the Lightning

Coleman went for a 1st + Foote, he was on a 1.8 million dollar deal for another season and currently had 21 goals in 57 games prior to being traded

Same with Hagel. Has 2 years left at 1.5, Tampa is happy to give up their scrap prospects and 2 late 1sts for a 45 point guy who can play in their top 9.

These contracts are bringing most value, not so much the player's

 

[aragorn]

This team will be in good shape if Boucher can turn into a Goodrow or Palat kind of player who is hard to play against & plays with as much grit & energy.

 

[OD99]

Some of you guys sound nuts.
Way too early to be posting the things you’re posting.

Im pretty excited about Boucher and how he’ll fit in with this group. Could be a very important piece. Nothing wrong with picking him there.

Turnabout is fair play.

I think your way of thinking is a bit nuts as well. I am more than happy to give him time to develop but I can't fathom how you are excited about a guy that has produced so little to date.

Also don't understand people projecting him to be a significant piece when we go on a Cup run at this point. What is justifying those thoughts other than he can lay some hits against 17 year old's?

I hope desperately that he has great dev/rookie camps and then lights it up with the 67's this season but I am not convinced he will.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Went for a 1st + an undrafted AHL Journeyman, Tampa got a 3rd back as well

His value was that he was signed for another year at 900k, if he cost 2+ million he wouldn't ave been a target for the Lightning

Coleman went for a 1st + Foote, he was on a 1.8 million dollar deal for another season and currently had 21 goals in 57 games prior to being traded

Same with Hagel. Has 2 years left at 1.5, Tampa is happy to give up their scrap prospects and 2 late 1sts for a 45 point guy who can play in their top 9.

These contracts are bringing most value, not so much the player's

Read a wrong page thanks., your right it was Coleman who cost a first and former first. Thanks it was to show Zub, they do cost more than poster said.

 

[Sting]

This team will be in good shape if Boucher can turn into a Goodrow or Palat kind of player who is hard to play against & plays with as much grit & energy.

Wishful thinking to think Boucher is anywhere close to a guy like Palat from a talent perspective. Not to harp too much on the kid, but yeah.

I listened to all of Dorion/Mann's interviews that mentioned the Boucher pick.

Reading between the lines, and sometimes not even needing to, they were well aware they didn't choose the best player available. They have been drafting based on team need. They've rationalized this essentially by saying it's difficult to get these types of players if they pan out, and that Ottawa isn't a landing spot for many players.

I disagree with this approach and in my opinion it's not how you build a cup contender. Be that as it may, they are standing by their choices.

 

[aragorn]

Wishful thinking to think Boucher is anywhere close to a guy like Palat from a talent perspective. Not to harp too much on the kid, but yeah.

I listened to all of Dorion/Mann's interviews that mentioned the Boucher pick.

Reading between the lines, and sometimes not even needing to, they were well aware they didn't choose the best player available. They have been drafting based on team need. They've rationalized this essentially by saying it's difficult to get these types of players if they pan out, and that Ottawa isn't a landing spot for many players.

I disagree with this approach and in my opinion it's not how you build a cup contender. Be that as it may, they are standing by their choices.

Palat is 31 yrs old, he was a very ordinary player at 20 yrs old & grew to become a good player, it takes time to grow into a great player unless you are a great talent to begin with. Boucher will be the kind of guy that makes room for other linemates, makes some big hits that change games & scores occassionally. These are the kind of impact players that also seem to grow & excel in playoff situations. There are plenty of players drafted higher than Boucher who never made an impact like Yakopov & Patrick.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Palat is 31 yrs old, he was a very ordinary player at 20 yrs old & grew to become a good player, it takes time to grow into a great player unless you are a great talent to begin with. Boucher will be the kind of guy that makes room for other linemates, makes some big hits that change games & scores occassionally. These are the kind of impact players that also seem to grow & excel in playoff situations. There are plenty of players drafted higher than Boucher who never made an impact like Yakopov & Patrick.

Huh?

At age 20 Palat scored 96 points in the Q.

He also plays nothing like Boucher.

 

[cudi]

Palat is a really strange comparison lol

 

[OD99]

Boucher will be the kind of guy that makes room for other linemates, makes some big hits that change games & scores occasionally. These are the kind of impact players that also seem to grow & excel in playoff situations.

See my thing with Boucher is I don't see this ability translating to the NHL and it seems the #1 skill that people are hoping he is, "elite" at.

Yes he plays physical but he 6' and 200lbs. He isn't some monster that is going to intimidate opposition and if he doesn't find his scoring touch he won't be in the NHL in anything other than as a deep, role player. It's one thing to be an energy player but another to be an impact player.

Is anyone going to say we made the right choice if he becomes a 4th line energy guy?

 

[SquidNasty]

Wait... Who the hell is "taking a dump" on Boucher? That has nothing to do with him. He's not responsible for having been taken too high. Hopefully, it doesn't destroy his career by being put under too much undeserved pressure.



Did Mann get Dorionized/Melnykized over time???? Scary... unless we're all blind and are missing something on Tyler Boucher's reality. It's crazy how much non-Sens fans are laughing at us because of that selection . Hopefully everyone except the Sens brass eats crow



Dorion should definitely be on the Rangers cup if they win.

Zibanejad, Miller (Othmann in the future)



Tyler Boucher at 16th OA would have been much more "acceptable" though. Reaching from 29th to 16th is not as disastrous. 29th to 10th OA is a BIG BALLS reach and absolutely has to pay, can't afford a Lee over Kopitar result

You absolutely want a Tyler Boucher? Draft Cole Sillinger and trade him for 3 Tyler Bouchers then.

You just need one Tyler Boucher? Ok so trade the other 2 for other assets.


Speaking of asset management, this is what I wrote yesterday (elsewhere) when someone talked about EK's return :

Funnily, Pierre Dorion found a way (as he always does) to DIMINISH the return by :

- Waiving Rudolfs Balcers before he gains value (played guys like Cedric Paquette, Artem Anisimov and Alex Galchenyuk instead)
- NOT trading Chris Tierney at peak (I have been SCREAMING for that since summer 2019) until he was worthless (who could have seen that coming? )
- Trade Dylan DeMelo for a freaking 3rd round pick when RD was clearly our weakest position... so Chabot has to play with Nikita freaking Zaitsev

Like for his second best trade, Ryan Dzingel for Duclair and two 2nd round picks. That trade was amazing but :

- he let Duclair go as a RFA (who scored 90 pts in 117 GP with the Panthers since)
- he traded a 2nd round pick for Derek freaking Stepan who didn't even want to be in Canada during the pandemic
- he traded the other 2nd for Matt Murray, which was fine in itself but he gave him a bloated 4 years contract, to a guy who was already massively injury prone.

S-P-E-C-T-A-C-U-L-A-R and there's still some who believe he is actually a good manager. I wouldn't even entrust him with a $100 bill

It blows my mind that this guy still has a job and I genuinely believe that he’s one of the worst managers in the entire league.

The main thing isn’t the Zibanejad and Stone blunders for me, it’s the way he manages his assets (as you said). The guy throws away valuable picks like it’s nothing. I can’t believe he traded what ended up being the 37th overall pick! For 20 games of Derek Stephan at 6.5M against the cap during a year he already knew we would suck.

This guy is so god damn lucky the Karlsson trade worked out for him. If Norris developed into a 3C and the pick was a late first rather than lottery, we’d genuinely be looking at one of the worst GM track records of the cap era.

The only current mangers I wouldn’t take over Dorion are Lou and Holland.

 

[Sweatred]

It blows my mind that this guy still has a job and I genuinely believe that he’s one of the worst managers in the entire league.

The main thing isn’t the Zibanejad and Stone blunders for me, it’s the way he manages his assets (as you said). The guy throws away valuable picks like it’s nothing. I can’t believe he traded what ended up being the 37th overall pick! For 20 games of Derek Stephan at 6.5M against the cap during a year he already knew we would suck.

This guy is so god damn lucky the Karlsson trade worked out for him. If Norris developed into a 3C and the pick was a late first rather than lottery, we’d genuinely be looking at one of the worst GM track records of the cap era.

The only current mangers I wouldn’t take over Dorion are Lou and Holland.

Na... he won the EK trade the day he didn't extend him. I'd say any of the top 2020 1RD picks are wayyyy better than having than EK.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It blows my mind that this guy still has a job and I genuinely believe that he’s one of the worst managers in the entire league.

The main thing isn’t the Zibanejad and Stone blunders for me, it’s the way he manages his assets (as you said). The guy throws away valuable picks like it’s nothing. I can’t believe he traded what ended up being the 37th overall pick! For 20 games of Derek Stephan at 6.5M against the cap during a year he already knew we would suck.

This guy is so god damn lucky the Karlsson trade worked out for him. If Norris developed into a 3C and the pick was a late first rather than lottery, we’d genuinely be looking at one of the worst GM track records of the cap era.

The only current mangers I wouldn’t take over Dorion are Lou and Holland.

Wouldn’t want Sweeney, I’m sure there are others as well.

 

[branch]

No, he said that some guys are hard to find and get in trade and free agency for a fair price, seems to equate Boucher to one of these guys. Pushed back a bit on the insinuation that the Sens may want to redo the draft if given the benefit of hindsight.

Trent's job isn't to worry about salary or free agency. It's to pick the best possible player.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Yeah, sort of how I feel. I mean, if he becomes another Chris Neil, that's a hugely popular and pretty impactful player, but it's not really what you think of from a top 10 pick even though it's arguably better than you should expect at 10 (people tend to expect too much out of picks imo).

People see 10 OA as a shot at the next Barzal, or Rantanen, I don't think there's much of a chance at Boucher becoming that impactful, but there are a lot more Baertschi and Ritchie's out there.

The production of Barzal or Rantanen is higher than what can be reasonably expected from a 10th overall pick. I would need to do some research to figure out the exact ranges but I think the threshold would be greater than 0.5 points per game, with an ideal production being in the 50-60 point range over 82 games.

Using your example of Chris Neil, hypothetically if Boucher becomes comparable to Neil but is able to produce at greater than 0.5 points per game and has some 50-60 point seasons then it will be a solid pick and the majority of people will be pretty happy with it. If instead he becomes like Neil and has similar production to Neil then there will still be a lot of people that are happy to have him on the team but many will be disappointed at the wasted opportunity to have taken a superior producing player.

Many on here have serious doubts about Boucher's ability to produce at greater than 0.5 points per game at the NHL level so they will likely remain critical. If Boucher begins to demonstrate indications of such ability then those being critical will likely re-evaluate their assessments.

 

[OD99]

The production of Barzal or Rantanen is higher than what can be reasonably expected from a 10th overall pick. I would need to do some research to figure out the exact ranges but I think the threshold would be greater than 0.5 points per game, with an ideal production being in the 50-60 point range over 82 games.

Using your example of Chris Neil, hypothetically if Boucher becomes comparable to Neil but is able to produce at greater than 0.5 points per game and has some 50-60 point seasons then it will be a solid pick and the majority of people will be pretty happy with it. If instead he becomes like Neil and has similar production to Neil then there will still be a lot of people that are happy to have him on the team but many will be disappointed at the wasted opportunity to have taken a superior producing player.

Many on here have serious doubts about Boucher's ability to produce at greater than 0.5 points per game at the NHL level so they will likely remain critical. If Boucher begins to demonstrate indications of such ability then those being critical will likely re-evaluate their assessments.

If Boucher is a 50 point player I will be extremely happy with the pick as I don't think his physical play alone would make him much of an impact player.

Needs a big jump...he was well below .5 PPG this past season and barely covered it in his time with the 67's so hoping he comes out of the gate hot right from rookie camp.

 

[R2010]

Palat is 31 yrs old, he was a very ordinary player at 20 yrs old & grew to become a good player, it takes time to grow into a great player unless you are a great talent to begin with. Boucher will be the kind of guy that makes room for other linemates, makes some big hits that change games & scores occassionally. These are the kind of impact players that also seem to grow & excel in playoff situations. There are plenty of players drafted higher than Boucher who never made an impact like Yakopov & Patrick.

Yeah and there are plenty of players who hit, play pk, score and do good things who have been drafted around Boucher's pick as well. One of them is the next pick. You know the guy who at 18 Team Canada was recently playing above long-time veteran NHLers.

No one expects Mann to come out and say they made a mistake there. Patience is the right approach. But if behind the scenes they don't realize they made a huge mistake taking Boucher above Sillinger then they shouldn't be the head scout. Its one thing to externally rationalize things for public consumption but I hope deep down our scouting staff has no illusions about who the right pick was there and that there process failed in that instance.

No, he said that some guys are hard to find and get in trade and free agency for a fair price, seems to equate Boucher to one of these guys. Pushed back a bit on the insinuation that the Sens may want to redo the draft if given the benefit of hindsight.

Not that he would say it publicly anyways but if behind the scenes they wouldn't take Sillinger above Boucher in hindsight then there's something seriously wrong. Like I said, they would never publicly say that kinda thing.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

See my thing with Boucher is I don't see this ability translating to the NHL and it seems the #1 skill that people are hoping he is, "elite" at.

Yes he plays physical but he 6' and 200lbs. He isn't some monster that is going to intimidate opposition and if he doesn't find his scoring touch he won't be in the NHL in anything other than as a deep, role player. It's one thing to be an energy player but another to be an impact player.

Is anyone going to say we made the right choice if he becomes a 4th line energy guy?

Boucher is listed at 6'1 205 lbs. He is already a similar size to Chris Neil (6'1 209 lbs) and Cal Clutterbuck (6' 212 lbs) and both had no problem laying massive hits with their size. He also isn't that far off from Ryan Reaves (6'2 225 lbs) and Nic Deslauriers (6'1 220 lbs). Boucher could end up being 220-225 lbs at his peak if that is an optimal weight for him to play at. He shouldn't have much issue getting up to that weight range if that is what he decides to do.

This season he was laying massive hits against NCAA players so he is already physically imposing against grown men at the age of 18. He has very good speed, angling and timing to land big hits so that will translate to the next level. If he would have played some pre-season or regular season games in the NHL this season it would be highly likely that he would have a few big hits.

I don't really see any reason to question whether he will be able to throw big hits and provide intimidation and momentum from them at the NHL level. What is uncertain is what his production will look like and whether or not he will be an intimidating fighter.

 

[R2010]

It was a ridiculous comparison to begin with, not similar in any way whatsoever aside from the fact they both play physical

Yeah I mean they both play physical. But the intimidation factor will never be there the same way for a 6'1 guy compared to a 6'5 guy.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

If Boucher is a 50 point player I will be extremely happy with the pick as I don't think his physical play alone would make him much of an impact player.

Needs a big jump...he was well below .5 PPG this past season and barely covered it in his time with the 67's so hoping he comes out of the gate hot right from rookie camp.

If he somehow does end up being developed into a 50 point player then I don't think we will see many complaints about drafting him. But at this point he has a lot he needs to demonstrate for that to become a realistic outcome. Hopefully we start seeing some more indications of that ability at the upcoming development camp.

 

[stempniaksen]

I think it's pretty clear they think/thought this kid would be Tom Wilson-esque.

Mann mentions in the interview "it's unfair to compare the kid to Tom Wilson" (uhh, you brought up the comparison) and then goes on the say "but Tom Wilson didn't put up very many points in his D+2 season, ect"

Team didn't think they were taking the best player available, but they did think they were getting a unicorn, imo. I disagree with them, but if Boucher can turn into 3/4 of what Wilson is now and he'll be worth the pick despite probably never putting up the points that a bunch of guys behind him will.

 

[BondraTime]

I think it's pretty clear they think/thought this kid would be Tom Wilson-esque.

Mann mentions in the interview "it's unfair to compare the kid to Tom Wilson" (uhh, you brought up the comparison) and then goes on the say "but Tom Wilson didn't put up very many points in his D+2 season, ect"

Team didn't think they were taking the best player available, but they did think they were getting a unicorn, imo. I disagree with them, but if Boucher can turn into 3/4 of what Wilson is now and he'll be worth the pick despite probably never putting up the points that a bunch of guys behind him will.

Wilson was in the NHL in his D+2, and he put up 31 goals and 75 points in 60 games in his D+1 18 year old season, with 150 PIMs.

The two aren't remotely comparable, they aren't similar type players at all.

The comparison needs to be done away with, Mann himself said it's not fair to him. He's nowhere near the size, has nowhere near the intimidation. He can skate and loves hitting, that's where the comparison ends.

 

[Sweatred]

I think it's pretty clear they think/thought this kid would be Tom Wilson-esque.

Mann mentions in the interview "it's unfair to compare the kid to Tom Wilson" (uhh, you brought up the comparison) and then goes on the say "but Tom Wilson didn't put up very many points in his D+2 season, ect"

Team didn't think they were taking the best player available, but they did think they were getting a unicorn, imo. I disagree with them, but if Boucher can turn into 3/4 of what Wilson is now and he'll be worth the pick despite probably never putting up the points that a bunch of guys behind him will.

I understand the pick. To build a cup contender they need these big body, strong skating 2-4 line players. The leafs have some size on their roster and they still aren't tough enough. We have a hard time acquiring talent we don't draft so they tired to draft what they need. You can't rely on 4-6 RD picks for this type of skill package. Wilson and even Austin Watson are 1RD picks.

Guys like Formenton and probably Greig arn't tough enjoy to fill out this roster the way we need too.

 

[stempniaksen]

Wilson was in the NHL in his D+2, and he put up 31 goals and 75 points in 60 games in his D+1 18 year old season, with 150 PIMs.

The two aren't remotely comparable, they aren't similar type players at all.

The comparison needs to be done away with, Mann himself said it's not fair to him. He's nowhere near the size, has nowhere near the intimidation. He can skate and loves hitting, that's where the comparison ends.

Never said they were, and I don't believe they are (hence saying I disagree with them) but Mann brought up Wilson by name in the interview unprompted and the way he was speaking about him makes me think he knew he wasn't necessarily BPA, just that he fit a unicorn type of role (the way Wilson does).