Two years later: Revisiting the Kotkaniemi - Dvorak swap

[LyricalLyricist]

Only been done 3 times before ---> realistic.

This is why I was right, and Price nuthuggers were wrong. They substitute wishful thinking and ignore basic facts of life like ageing and wear and tear, and I don't.

To be honest with you I didn't consider 1000 GP as some threshold, you brought it up.

If he hit 900 GP, 950, 850, etc... it doesn't matter as long as when he played he was healthy enough to play the season. If Carey did like Weber and retired after playing a full season that wouldn't be of concern to me. Him missing time due to injury within a year was a bigger concern.

That said, IF price was healthy he would've hit 1000 GP in his career for sure. He started at 20 so it wasn't impossible.

 

[NotProkofievian]

To be honest with you I didn't consider 1000 GP as some threshold, you brought it up.

If he hit 900 GP, 950, 850, etc... it doesn't matter as long as when he played he was healthy enough to play the season. If Carey did like Weber and retired after playing a full season that wouldn't be of concern to me. Him missing time due to injury within a year was a bigger concern.

That said, IF price was healthy he would've hit 1000 GP in his career for sure. He started at 20 so it wasn't impossible.

I brought it up as an obviously ridiculous expectation, but you said ''seems reasonable to me.'' Even if he made it that far, his prime isn't games 800-1000, obviously. Because again, people age, each game takes something out of a player, injuries happen, etc. etc.

If it wasn't obvious to you that we were buying a lot of dog years if not years that would never be played, I can't help you. Assuming the best possible outcome in order to justify a decision is likely to lead to poor outcomes.

 

[calder candidate]

If prefer KK on is current contract we be set Suzuki Dach and KK but the issue is KK wanted out of MTL he wouldn’t have sign and if we would have match I can’t imagine how much we would have had to pay Suzuki and CC

 

[PavelBrendl]

I don’t care about Kotkaniemi, but Jesus f***ing Christ why did they have to go and overpay for the most boring dude in the NHL? They could have done literally anything else and I’d have been happier. Dvorak is such a Bergevin special.

 

[WinterLion]

Dvo is ok.... but it's true he is so damn boring. I just hope Hughes trades him soon!

 

[Takeru]

Had the Habs matched, though, what would KK's subsequent contract have looked like? It's safe to assume that he would not have been open to signing a long term deal similar to the one that Carolina offered him.

The mistake began with the Aho offer sheet, and was followed up by not anticipating a retaliatory OS and getting KK signed before that could happen. IMO, the only thing Bergevin got right was not matching that OS. KK wasn't happy, so future contract negotiations probably would not have went well. However, Bergevin then panicked and threw away the first round pick on Dvorak.

It can't be overstated how ridiculous that move was. Still can't believe it happened. There never was a snowball's chance in hell we were nabbing Aho with that paltry offer and we succeeded only in souring our relationship with another team in the process. Retaliation was to be expected and we opened our back to it with KK's general mishandling, creating a golden opportunity for it.

In a way, it's a perfect encapsulation of most of MB's moves throughout his tenure.
A poorly planned/thought out hail mary shot that doesn't/barely improves the team and ends up backfiring in our faces a few years after.

 

[Kriss E]

I just don't see it. I realize HF stands for hockey's future so we love picks, prospects and get off on the tanking, rebuilding, retooling stuff but when you have a star goalie loved by fans, unofficial captain of the team and we want to 'trade and restart' with a 29 year old(he signed extension at 29) goalie it becomes a bit far fetched as a proposition.

Dude literally was in his prime at the time, 2 years removed from 4 awards in a single year.

By comparison, Patrick Roy was traded at 30 and the 2nd half of his career was HHOF worthy on its own.

Like I said, Carey was expected to be with us until the end like Henrik was for NY.

You don't see it because you keep everything else the same. I view this move impacting future (and prior) decisions.
Price suffered a major knee injury in 2014, knocking us out of the POs. In 2015-16, he played 12 games. His health was a major concern since. He signed his 8 year extension in 2017.
But again, if you remember correctly, the biggest knock on Bergevin was his lack of direction or vision. It was a constant back and forth and a clear lack of structure.
He just coasted on the back of Price. But what he should have done was put pieces in place so when Price comes knocking for that 100M contract, you move him just before.

Anyways, no need to go too far off the subject line. Point is, a lack of vision was the biggest problem.
Keeping KK or moving him, both could have been the right decision.

 

[StCaufield]

Great move by Bergy. Let their whiney management have him and his hilarious contract

 

[StCaufield]

If prefer KK on is current contract we be set Suzuki Dach and KK but the issue is KK wanted out of MTL he wouldn’t have sign and if we would have match I can’t imagine how much we would have had to pay Suzuki and CC

He’s worth 3M max

 

[calder candidate]

He’s worth 3M max

I agree that he is over paid but he is still only 22yo he has size and legit 200 foot game, at a .5ppg player is probably worth closer to 4M than 3M and if he progress a little bit he might become underpaid.

27yo Dvorak at 4.5M for 2 years
Vs.
22yo KK at 4.85M for 7 years
Dvorak or any other veteran replacement level 3rd line C will cost 3.5M$ + I prefer to have a guy with more upside…

I Pick KK but at the same time he is dead to me…

 

[Mrb1p]

The people trashing KK in this thread are the same hyping up Newhook in the other

 

[nhlfan9191]

He’s worth 3M max

He’s probably worth around $4 million so he’s not to far off what his value is. He’s still only 23 so he can still live up to that contract and make it valuable. I personally wouldn’t have been comfortable giving him what Carolina gave him, especially not with that ridiculous $6 million they gave him the first year but there’s worse ways to spend that much money.

 

[NotProkofievian]

The people trashing KK in this thread are the same hyping up Newhook in the other

KK is in a different tier than Henrik Borgström bro, I do tiers, and KK ain't in his tier bro.

 

[MadMslm]

It's kind of hilarious to read a thread full of people simultaneously saying that the Canadiens should have matched that absurd contract for Kotkaniemi while simultaneously saying that Bergevin was a terrible General Manager.

Had he matched that contract it would have been the single stupidest thing he'd ever done.

Are the Bergevin haters so blinded by their dislike for that man that they have to pretend everything he did was wrong?

Nobody in their right mind thinks giving Kotka that contract was the right move, yet over 70 percent of the people here think that was the route to go?

Really?

It's bad enough that people are pretending that Dvorak is some terrible player that couldn't be given away - which is absurd - but now we have to also pretend that not handing Kotka the keys to the vault was a mistake?

This place in insane.

To add to your point, a big part of the fan base were critical of the management because Danault was playing more than KK.

They all wanted KK to have more ice time, and clearly that was the plan Bergevin had in mind when he told Danault he would play behind both kids. He offered him 5 millions and that wasn’t enough because he wanted a bigger role. But no, we should have kept Danault and let KK walk.

Not matching the offer sheet was the right move for multiple reasons. Clearly KK wasn’t happy with his usage, reports of attitude problems and salary structure were all things that led to this outcome.

I also agree that Dvorak isn’t as bad as some try to make him look like. There was reports before the offer sheet that Bergevin was interested in Dvorak and chances are that even if they would have kept KK, Dvorak would have been acquired at some point to replace Danault and bring some insulation.

This board rarely makes any sense. It’s always one thing or the other, there can’t be any grey area or complicated variables that should be taken into consideration.

 

[HuGort]

I don't know which one to vote for. Both are pretty bad. I think I would rather have Dvorak. KK contract pretty bad, 7 more years at 5m.

 

[SnapVirus]

I like KK and i would gladly have him. I also would send dvorak to any team who want him for free. Hes vanilla and a waste of a roster spot

 

[yianik]

KK is the better player and will be in the future. But the big lesson is in contract control. Bergevin did something stupid and rushed a player for no discernible reason. As a direct result of that decision, he ended up in a situation where a promising young player could sign an offer sheet and was very surprised when that player did so. Well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions.

This is leaving aside the detriment to KK's development caused by putting him in the NHL too soon.

That's how you turn a 3rd overall pick into Christian f***ing Dvorak.

Well he did the same damn thing with Galchenyuk, which was even worse as there certainly was 0 reason to rush him. Lol, yeah , a kid who couldn't play a 200 foot game and was to be our savior at C gets left in the hands of a miserable prick who doesn't develop players because " dats not my job"

 

[StCaufield]

The people trashing KK in this thread are the same hyping up Newhook in the other

Nope not me lol

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Bergevin definitely didn't do the right thing. I couldn't vote. I was OK with not qualifying KK. I was not ok with Bergevin turning around and trading MORE for Dvorak. KK net us a 1st & 3rd. We paid a 1st and a 2nd for Dvorak.

Bergevin was so stupid. He KNEW Weber was done. Probably knew Price was done. He let Danault walk to free agency. And, yet he goes out and signs a bunch of vets to contracts that summer (Savard, Armia, Hoffman) instead of just re-tooling.

So, you let KK go, you let Danault go, Weber is done, Price is done and you think f***ING Mike Hoffman and Christian Dvorak are the answer?! WTF!!!!

That whole summer still makes me so angry, and isn't just the KK thing. It was everything that went along with it. He f***ed up our cap, gave a lot of really average vets terrible contracts, and killed our center core, so all we had left was Suzuki.

That summer and the Markov / Alzner summer (if you want loyalty, buy a dog), holy shit, they live in infamy in my mind. Just disastrous summers.

 

[Seb]

Bergevin definitely didn't do the right thing. I couldn't vote. I was OK with not qualifying KK. I was not ok with Bergevin turning around and trading MORE for Dvorak. KK net us a 1st & 3rd. We paid a 1st and a 2nd for Dvorak.

Bergevin was so stupid. He KNEW Weber was done. Probably knew Price was done. He let Danault walk to free agency. And, yet he goes out and signs a bunch of vets to contracts that summer (Savard, Armia, Hoffman) instead of just re-tooling.

So, you let KK go, you let Danault go, Weber is done, Price is done and you think f***ING Mike Hoffman and Christian Dvorak are the answer?! WTF!!!!

That whole summer still makes me so angry, and isn't just the KK thing. It was everything that went along with it. He f***ed up our cap, gave a lot of really average vets terrible contracts, and killed our center core, so all we had left was Suzuki.

That summer and the Markov / Alzner summer (if you want loyalty, buy a dog), holy shit, they live in infamy in my mind. Just disastrous summers.

Bergevin knew he was toast after the playoffs when Weber and Price's career was over.

He knew he couldn't start a third rebuild, it probably wasn't part of his genius plan with Molson.

So he did the same mistake all stupid GMs do in this situation, he panicked and refurbished his team with players from Wish as a one last Hail Mary to keep his job.

Bergevin did the right thing by not matching the offer, but how he responded to it was absolutely brutal.

Worst part is Molson actually tried to extend his contract but they disagreed on the salary IIRC. We could still be stuck with him.

 

[salbutera]

The people trashing KK in this thread are the same hyping up Newhook in the other

We’ll see, but I’m willing to bet Newhook actually possesses intellectual capacity to learn

 

[Mrb1p]

We’ll see, but I’m willing to bet Newhook actually possesses intellectual capacity to learn

There we go

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Bergevin knew he was toast after the playoffs when Weber and Price's career was over.

He knew he couldn't start a third rebuild, it probably wasn't part of his genius plan with Molson.

So he did the same mistake all stupid GMs do in this situation, he panicked and refurbished his team with players from Wish as a one last Hail Mary to keep his job.

Bergevin did the right thing by not matching the offer, but how he responded to it was absolutely brutal.

Worst part is Molson actually tried to extend his contract but they disagreed on the salary IIRC. We could still be stuck with him.

3rd rebuild? When were the first 2!

He came into an organization that had a superstar young goalie, one of the top wingers in the game in Pacioretty, one of the best defense pairings in NHL in Markov-Subban, who were running a top notch PP, while Plekanec took care of the pking. And, all of them were on amazing contracts.

We should have been ALL in; instead he refused to trade 1st round picks and prospects to help the team, particularly at center, and kept the team well below the max cap figure, because it was weapon! How is it a weapon when you don't use it for anything dumbass?!

 

[abo9]

There should be a third option


MB did right by letting Kotkaniemi leave - he was going nowhere in Montreal and idk if the change in management + MSL would have saved him. The Canes gave him time, insulation, confidence and now opportunities.


But turning around with those newly acquired picks to grab Dvorak? Nahhhh, bad decision.

I wasnt the biggest Danault fan, but in hindsight, signing him at 5.5M or 6M would have been a hell of a lot better than giving up assets for a worst player making 4.5M lol

Truly reminds me of rhe Markov/Radulov and Alzner situation.

MB trying to hardball some of our most solid/neede players just to lose them and going in the bargain bin to replace them

Im curious how much he matters in decisions in LA, because they seem to make a lot of good value moves, but not sure if they fit in a long term plan or address needs

 

[lamp9post]

I agree that he is over paid but he is still only 22yo he has size and legit 200 foot game, at a .5ppg player is probably worth closer to 4M than 3M and if he progress a little bit he might become underpaid.

27yo Dvorak at 4.5M for 2 years
Vs.
22yo KK at 4.85M for 7 years
Dvorak or any other veteran replacement level 3rd line C will cost 3.5M$ + I prefer to have a guy with more upside…

I Pick KK but at the same time he is dead to me…

He'll be 23 in 5 days and has been in the league now for 5 seasons. The clock is really starting to tick on whatever untapped potential he may have.

The move obviously didn't work out great for us but it was just baffling from Carolina's side. Imagine being in the middle of your contention window and you spend $6.1M in cap space at a period where the cap is stagnant on a project that ends up playing on your 4th line and contributes 2 assists in your 14 game playoff run. Then you extend him 8 years.