Proposal: Trouba Mega Thread Part VII

[Riptide]

My point is simply that Trouba sitting isn't best for the team. And saying that it's worse for Trouba to sit than it is for the Jets really isn't an excuse. If Trouba sits Chevy is to blame.

Excuse? No, but it is reality. I agree that Trouba sitting isn't the best for the team. But it is going to hurt him a lot more than it hurts the team. Fortunately the odds of that happening are probably fairly low - as long as both sides cave a little (JT with signing with WPG and WPG with signing a short contract).

 

[cneely]

Haha, I can play at that game too... I trust the 29 other GM's who clearly disagree with Chevy over Trouba's value.

You know this?

What if they agree with the value but don't have the assets / cap space?

FYI, a rhetorical question. I really don't care that much.

 

[Stej]

Considering all the Winnipeg bashing going on in this **** show thread, I'd like reiterate that the big problem with Trouba's approach is not so much that he asked to be traded from Winnipeg, but rather that he appears to be trying to dictate where he can and cannot be traded to. Assuming those reports are true, THAT is where the serious devaluation comes from.

And that is where my frustration comes from. You want a trade? Sure, let's open it up to 29 other teams and take the best offer.

Do you Trouba apologists not see this? Should Chevy just bend over and take anything he can get from whoever Trouba "allows" him to deal with?

I mean, ****, people are complaining that Chevy's not doing anything when it's been reported that he had a deal in place and the Trouba camp said they wouldn't sign there. If that's true, then I have no idea how you can have an issue with Chevy playing hardball back. It's dumbfounding.

 

[Coach Parker]

So, instead we should adopt your strategy and trade him for whatever we can get. Yup, that's how winners are made.

Kessel a RFA.
Kessel refuses to sign with Bruins and forces a trade.
Bruins get two 1sts and a 2nd.
Bruins win the Stanley Cup.

Seguin (draft pick acquired in trading their disgruntled RFA) key part in that Cup win.

In one of the last two most recent RFA trades for picks, moving the player out resulted in a Stanley Cup win.

 

[SCP Guy]

He doesn't want to sign but if he caves into signing but will only do a short term deal if Jets refuse say long term or no costing him season of play then Jets will look very bad to the outside.

if ..... If ...... If

Until the Trouba camp agrees to negotiate it is nothing but ifs.... And if he refuses to negotiate at all let him rot

 

[cneely]

My point is simply that Trouba sitting isn't best for the team. And saying that it's worse for Trouba to sit than it is for the Jets really isn't an excuse. If Trouba sits Chevy is to blame.

Maybe you disagree and maybe you think Chevy can magically make it all work out ala the Drouin situation, but as far as I can tell Chevy's no Yzerman and Winnipeg is no Tampa. As the Leafs fans have already stated, it's not even in the tropical part of Canada

I just dont think that getting 60 cents on the dollar is best for the Jets.

And FYI, I'm on my deck in Winnipeg right now. It's quite nice.

 

[cneely]

Kessel a RFA.
Kessel refuses to sign with Bruins and forces a trade.
Bruins get two 1sts and a 2nd.
Bruins win the Stanley Cup.

Seguin (draft pick acquired in trading their disgruntled RFA) key part in that Cup win.

In one of the last two most recent RFA trades for picks, moving the player out resulted in a Stanley Cup win.

Come on man, be realistic. I'm a Bruins fan, and while I love what Seguin did in that one game vs the Bolts, he was far from a key part in that cup win.

Also, that trade is universally lauded as a lopsided victory for the Bruins. I don't think the Jets are interested in that type of trade.

 

[Coach Parker]

Considering all the Winnipeg bashing going on in this **** show thread, I'd like reiterate that the big problem with Trouba's approach is not so much that he asked to be traded from Winnipeg, but rather that he appears to be trying to dictate where he can and cannot be traded to. Assuming those reports are true, THAT is where the serious devaluation comes from.

And that is where my frustration comes from. You want a trade? Sure, let's open it up to 29 other teams and take the best offer.

Do you Trouba apologists not see this? Should Chevy just bend over and take anything he can get from whoever Trouba "allows" him to deal with?

I mean, ****, people are complaining that Chevy's not doing anything when it's been reported that he had a deal in place and the Trouba camp said they wouldn't sign there. If that's true, then I have no idea how you can have an issue with Chevy playing hardball back. It's dumbfounding.

Great point. If Trouba wants to go to 3-4 teams then he should have a DIRT cheap (3.0 million / year) contract for two years so the team gets a deal and is willing to pay a huge sum to the Jets for that contract.

If RFA's want to go somewhere in particular BY ALL MEANS...but take a huge pay cut so the two teams involved get a great return for your services.

 

[Coach Parker]

Come on man, be realistic. I'm a Bruins fan, and while I love what Seguin did in that one game vs the Bolts, he was far from a key part in that cup win.

Also, that trade is universally lauded as a lopsided victory for the Bruins. I don't think the Jets are interested in that type of trade.

My point is valid Cneely.

He said moving RFA's who don't want to sign doesn't create winners. He was wrong. The move benefitted the Bruins and they won the Cup.

A team that moved a disgruntled RFA went on to win the Stanley Cup with assets from the picks acquired from the RFA holdout. The point is that if they get a return of picks and prospects and are upset initially that they shouldn't be because the value of the return could actually build a winning team.

 

[haveandare]

Ya whose gonna want a 22 year old dman with over 200 games under his belt...not the Ranger for sure. They only bring in guys over 30 so trouba will have to wait. Plus the Ranger have no one the Jets need.

Who's gonna want a player that missed a whole year at 22? Less people than would want the same player without missing a crucial development year I'd bet. If NYR trades for Vatanen or Shattenkirk or has Skjei come a long way, there's a big suitor gone. If Boston does something to get someone who can actually help them this year there's another. I can't speak for Boston but it's been reported repeatedly that NYR are going to bolster their D this year. If Trouba isn't eligible to play, there's at least one team that won't be in for him next year. Then take away all the teams Trouba doesn't want to play for. The tight spot Chevy is in just gets tighter and tighter.

Also NYR are .5 years younger than WPG based on opening day rosters and they're playing 3 rookies every night. So much for that tired argument. And WPG needs an awful lot as evidenced by their GM and fans writing this year off before it even started and by their performance so far. Many, if not most, of our wingers would be upgrades on anyone but Wheeler, Laine and Ehlers.

 

[nyr__1994]

I just dont think that getting 60 cents on the dollar is best for the Jets.

And FYI, I'm on my deck in Winnipeg right now. It's quite nice.

That's cool, I am headed to the beach tomorrow to let the puppy run around and enjoy the cool weather. Only supposed to be 75 here. Not sure how that translates to Canadian temps though.

I guess we are all arguing in different ways about what is troubas value. As an NYR fan, the best comparable we have would be if Kreider refused to sign with us. Would I be pissed? Absolutely. How would I like to see it resolved? Ship his ass out of town for the best offer. That's where the GMs earn their money. If there is someone that doesn't want to be a part of a good thing, which looks like it is happening in WPG then GTFO.

 

[haveandare]

Considering all the Winnipeg bashing going on in this **** show thread, I'd like reiterate that the big problem with Trouba's approach is not so much that he asked to be traded from Winnipeg, but rather that he appears to be trying to dictate where he can and cannot be traded to. Assuming those reports are true, THAT is where the serious devaluation comes from.

And that is where my frustration comes from. You want a trade? Sure, let's open it up to 29 other teams and take the best offer.

Do you Trouba apologists not see this? Should Chevy just bend over and take anything he can get from whoever Trouba "allows" him to deal with?

I mean, ****, people are complaining that Chevy's not doing anything when it's been reported that he had a deal in place and the Trouba camp said they wouldn't sign there. If that's true, then I have no idea how you can have an issue with Chevy playing hardball back. It's dumbfounding.

Aside from people in this thread guessing about it, nobody knows what types of offers they're receiving for him. People talk like every offer is a fifth and future considerations. I'm sure teams that Trouba would play for have made decent offers, he's a very valuable asset right now.

 

[cneely]

My point is valid Cneely.

He said moving RFA's who don't want to sign doesn't create winners. He was wrong. The move benefitted the Bruins and they won the Cup.

A team that moved a disgruntled RFA went on to win the Stanley Cup with assets from the picks acquired from the RFA holdout.

Serious question, because I know you to be a logical fellow.

Do you think the Bruins were better off with Seguin that playoff, or Kessel? Lets leave the long term effects of the deal off the table, but for that one year, were they better off with Kessel or Seguin.

Once you answer that, and consider that the Bruins haven't done much since (with Seguin or Hamilton, or the returns in those deals) and I wonder what your point is.

 

[Alluckks]

Trouba knows he will eventually be paid enough to last a lifetime regardless. He is choosing his significant other over easing a headache. Who cares if you agree or not. He sees this as his only way to ensure that he gets to move to the U.S. If he signs a bridge I'd be surprised. Or signs at all.

 

[cneely]

Aside from people in this thread guessing about it, nobody knows what types of offers they're receiving for him. People talk like every offer is a fifth and future considerations. I'm sure teams that Trouba would play for have made decent offers, he's a very valuable asset right now.

Other people talk like they are sure Chevy has been offered Crosby and Malkin.

You're absolutely right, no one knows. Well, outside of Chevy and the other GM I suppose.

 

[Ducks in a row]

if ..... If ...... If

Until the Trouba camp agrees to negotiate it is nothing but ifs.... And if he refuses to negotiate at all let him rot

Look at it this way a young man who has recently become a adult is from the U.S. is drafted by a Canadien team (he has no say in who drafted him) signed a contract played a few years and doesn't like Canada and wants to return to his home country and let the Jets know about it and asks for a trade and instead of trading him they try to make him stay where he doesn't want to be showing the team doesn't care about his feelings and don't believe in the we want players who want to be here saying. What would you do? Would you sign if you are him? I know I wouldn't.

If Trouba does cave in and signs a contract how long will it take to trade him? We know it took a wile for Kane to be traded and it required a lot of troubled behavior which including a incident with a teammate before he was finally traded.

If he doesn't sign just let him rot is a totally emotional reaction that goes against what is best for the Jets.

 

[135ace]

I just dont think that getting 60 cents on the dollar is best for the Jets.
[NHL][/NHL]
And FYI, I'm on my deck in Winnipeg right now. It's quite nice.

We can only speculate on what offers Chevy has received, but if some of the rumors were true I'd assume Chevy passed on at least some deals that weren't pennies on the dollar. Many of those deals probably wouldn't be on the table now. For example...
Kreider+ for Trouba. I doubt that happening now as Kreider is off to a great start.
Miller+for Trouba. Again, much less likely now that Miller is off to a great start. Or the + would be a lot less.
Zacha+ for Trouba. Again, Zacha is playing great and I don't see this happening.
Fowler+ for Trouba. Fowler is also off to a great start so the + would probably be less now.
Chychrun+ for Trouba. Another one who is off to a great start.

Hindsight is 20-20, but looking back if any of these offers were made it's hard to see how the Jets would't have been getting fair value.

 

[Coach Parker]

Serious question, because I know you to be a logical fellow.

Do you think the Bruins were better off with Seguin that playoff, or Kessel? Lets leave the long term effects of the deal off the table, but for that one year, were they better off with Kessel or Seguin.

Once you answer that, and consider that the Bruins haven't done much since (with Seguin or Hamilton, or the returns in those deals) and I wonder what your point is.

Simple. When the Bruins board got wind of the Kessel trade people were pissed. They didn't like the return and thought it set a bad precedent for the future RFA's. The same day I started up the Leafs tank thread.

In the end, we were all extremely happy with the return the Bruins got for the RFA who wanted out. It takes time for the value to become clear but if the trade does go down and the Jets do take a LHD prospect and some picks for Trouba it could end up being a great or even better return than they had hoped.

 

[Ducks in a row]

We can only speculate on what offers Chevy has received, but if some of the rumors were true I'd assume Chevy passed on at least some deals that weren't pennies on the dollar. Many of those deals probably wouldn't be on the table now. For example...
Kreider+ for Trouba. I doubt that happening now as Kreider is off to a great start.
Miller+for Trouba. Again, much less likely now that Miller is off to a great start. Or the + would be a lot less.
Zacha+ for Trouba. Again, Zacha is playing great and I don't see this happening.
Fowler+ for Trouba. Fowler is also off to a great start so the + would probably be less now.
Chychrun+ for Trouba. Another one who is off to a great start.

Hindsight is 20-20, but looking back if any of these offers were made it's hard to see how the Jets would't have been getting fair value.

We might not even trade Fowler for Trouba with how well Fowler has improved this season. Fowler has been trashed on by advanced stat lovers who don't know how to judge a player from another team based on things you don't get from advanced stats. Advanced stats are influenced too much by things outside the individual player. Some Jets fans didn't want Fowler because of advanced stats not being good some didn't want him because he is signed for 1 more season after this one before being a UFA that reason I can appreciate not the other.

 

[Snowman]

JT wouldn't have any control over the situation. The second he's signed, he's prohibited from talking to other GMs and they cannot talk to him/his agent without WPG's permission. That and WPG is able to trade him anywhere they wish. The odds of him changing his mind in WPG (about deciding to withdraw the trade request) is slim considering how things have gone. But we have seen other players do that (most recently, Hamonic), so I doubt that's much of an issue for other GMs.

Still not sure what you're talking about "restrictions". Trouba (or the Jets for that matter) cannot place any "restrictions" on Trouba's contract unless it exceeds 4 years, and even then those "restrictions" are only valid from year 4+. Anything verbal isn't binding and is actually prohibited in the CBA.

But regardless, I would absolutely love to see that happen (WPG refuse to sign anything but a long term contract). You want to talk about screwing the franchise over (as the GM of said franchise no less) solely for the sake of "winning" in the short term? You pull that stunt. Trouba's agent would leak that in a minute, and there's no way you can spin that and say there would not be a negative impact around the league. Basically kiss good bye any potential college free agents and even potentially other young players. Anyone drafted just has to wait 2 years (where they continue to play juniors or go to Europe for a year) until their rights expire and they go back in the draft. College kids just need to get a degree and then they can go where ever (something I suspect Trouba is kicking himself for now). There is absolutely no way that doesn't backfire and harm the Jets long term.

The restrictions I'm taking about are not legal ones like in a contract but rather what JT has had his agent tell teams that are interested in him. All GM's already know whether or not JT is interested in playing there.

So, if he's signed to a bridge deal it will still restrict the teams he can be traded to as only teams he would re-up with would be in on the bidding. Giving him more control. A longer term deal at a reasonable cost and he becomes more valuable to the teams he likes (as they don't have to worry about JT going back on his word or asking for a ton of $ in 2 years) and maybe even some he doesn't.

That's why long term is in the best interest of the Jets.

 

[Snowman]

Actually, you fail to lack any sort of reading comprehension. I haven't advocated trading Trouba for anything, just that it's much better to trade him than to have him sit out.

If Chevy thinks signing him to a long term contract is best, fine, to each his own, I can accept that, but letting him sit is clearly the worst option and Trouba can decide if he wants to sign or not so clearly Trouba has a trump card.

But I guess it's not really Chevy's job to do what's best for the team. You'd rather he do what will make the fans happy and punish Trouba because their feelings were hurt.

Still contradicting yourself every step of the way.

 

[nyr__1994]

The restrictions I'm taking about are not legal ones like in a contract but rather what JT has had his agent tell teams that are interested in him. All GM's already know whether or not JT is interested in playing there.

So, if he's signed to a bridge deal it will still restrict the teams he can be traded to as only teams he would re-up with would be in on the bidding. Giving him more control. A longer term deal at a reasonable cost and he becomes more valuable to the teams he likes (as they don't have to worry about JT going back on his word or asking for a ton of $ in 2 years) and maybe even some he doesn't.

That's why long term is in the best interest of the Jets.

But at the end of a 2 year bridge he is still under team control, so the team that acquires him now gets a season and 3/4 to sell him on their city. If not, they can move him. And according to WPG he is worth a top pairing defender and a top 6 winger.

What does the acquiring team have to lose? They get a top 4 defender for 2 year and they can then either re sign him or flip him.

Sounds like a win - win to me

 

[buggs]

Except that isn't what you said. You said he's not a professional because he's not earning money while waiting for a trade.

On the point about Kane, we'd heard about him wanting out of WPG for years. So that's not only coming from him, but guys like Bobby Mac and other insiders. It wasn't nuclear like this currently is, because Kane didn't constantly bring it up and was part of the team - but then he would have had to have been to collect his paycheque. And really, other than sitting, he had zero recourse. And if he had sat, he would have been in breach of his SPC, which could have had a negative impact on that. Trouba on the other hand doesn't have a valid SPC, and the only leverage WPG has is not signing him to a contract this season - however push come to shove there are other well paying leagues available to Trouba.

To the first comment, you're twisting my words a bit there by not providing the original context of the quote which was a response to Paradise in regards to other professionals in other leagues requesting trades all the time. I actually inferred they were professional by continuing to honor their contracts while awaiting a trade. Obviously we see the issue differently. But really, an RFA in the NHL is refusing to be traded except to markets he wants to by refusing to report to those teams and you're still defending him as professional? Help me out with that? Same sorts of sources you're using for Kane have suggested at the very least the Leafs were interested.

There are other leagues, though they are only well paying in comparison to what the average schlep like you or I earn. Swiss pro leagues or the KHL aren't going to compensate Trouba for near the amount that has been rumored what Winnipeg is offering up ($5.5). The KHL has a salary cap for a team at around $14 milllion. There's no exception to the cap for Americans (or other foreigners) so where is Trouba going to come close to that? And it really rather flies in the face of all the stuff that has been rumored about Trouba in terms of wanting to be near where his girlfriend is going to go to med school. Or was it because his dad couldn't cross the border (because getting into Europe or Russia will be easier for dad)?

Per Kane, he had the same recourse Trouba did. If as reports are now as you suggest pertaining to his trade wishes very early on, he had every option to not sign with the Jets. But he did sign a deal with the Jets that ate partly RFA, partly UFA years. It can't be both ways. So Kane decided to make money while awaiting a trade. He was professional in terms of his on ice performance. He competed each and every night until the situation blew up. Trouba and his agent on the other hand are trying to circumvent the CBA. What's professional about that?

 

[135ace]

The restrictions I'm taking about are not legal ones like in a contract but rather what JT has had his agent tell teams that are interested in him. All GM's already know whether or not JT is interested in playing there.

So, if he's signed to a bridge deal it will still restrict the teams he can be traded to as only teams he would re-up with would be in on the bidding. Giving him more control. A longer term deal at a reasonable cost and he becomes more valuable to the teams he likes (as they don't have to worry about JT going back on his word or asking for a ton of $ in 2 years) and maybe even some he doesn't.

That's why long term is in the best interest of the Jets.

Why not just let him negotiate a contract with whatever team the Jets work out a trade with? Assuming he gets traded and really wants to go to team X or team Y, there's really not much point in Chevy giving him a 5.5x6 year contract. Maybe Trouba would agree to a 5mil/year contract to team X or Y because he really wants to go there (which would likely bump his value).

 

[nyr__1994]

Other people talk like they are sure Chevy has been offered Crosby and Malkin.

You're absolutely right, no one knows. Well, outside of Chevy and the other GM I suppose.

Chevy could have been offered Crosby and Malkin and he said let me think about it for a week or three while he waits for a better offer.