Proposal: Trouba Mega thread Part V

[Maukkis]

We don't need a goalie.

We need one. Like, quite badly. The thing is, we can't acquire one unless the return is Connor Hellebuyck. Anything else is a waste of assets.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I didn't say a down grade. Now you are saying an upgrade. I think Chevy gets fair value in a package. It won't be what Jets fans expect but it will be fair value because teams have been approaching Chevy for months. Those inquiry's had to include offers, so value is close to set by now. A magical offer is not going to all of a sudden appear and current offers and interest will likely get worse not better. Chevy isn't dumb enough to make him sit for a year, that won't happen either.

Yes, you did. You continually claim he won't find the player he is asking for. Well, guess what? The player he is asking for is the player he is theoretically losing. A package deal does not replace the value of the loss of that individual, today, so you are indeed suggesting they accept a downgrade. Hope that helps. They are looking to replace him, his value to their franchise as an individual d-man, today, not over time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Pass on both of those unattractive scenarios. Neither replace Trouba's value on Winnipeg's blue line. Don't want a goalie, don't want a cap dump forward. They want to be compensated for the loss of a d-man that was second on their team in 5V5 minutes played last year.

It's in the Jets best interest to stock pile draft picks and prospects. I feel for the Jets where Trouba is being difficult. So take as many picks as you can and build with the young core they have. The other players (Fleury or preferably Murray) are add on's. Jets are going to have a hard time finding another D that is as young and as good as Trouba in a trade. Use the desperate situation the Pens have into their favor.

 

[garyturner3]

You've tried to make this argument twice.

Again, the last player to sit out a year was Mike Peca, and he was dealt for 2 recent top 10 picks. Sitting out didn't seem to hurt his value at all.

Last year Drouin sat out most of the year. Did you see his value diminish?

A sample size of Mike Peca isn't exactly a compelling argument. And does anybody remember what the initial asking price for him was before he sat out? For all we know it was much higher than what they eventually accepted. And absolutely sitting out hurt Drouin's value otherwise they would have been able to swing a deal for him at the time.

 

[Gump Hasek]

It's in the Jets best interest to stock pile draft picks and prospects. I feel for the Jets where Trouba is being difficult. So take as many picks as you can and build with the young core they have. The other players (Fleury or preferably Murray) are add on's. Jets are going to have a hard time finding another D that is as young and as good as Trouba in a trade. Use the desperate situation the Pens have into their favor.

Here is a good read for you on the Jets current situation as a franchise:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jets-window-opportunity-opening-sooner-later/

Read that, and then claim again that this team should "stockpile draft picks and prospects". Why should they, exactly? They have an overstocked pipeline as it is.

Those Pen's picks and prospects carry far less value here than you apparently believe they should.

 

[cobra427]

Yes, you did. You continually claim he won't find the player he is asking for. Well, guess what? The player he is asking for is the player he is theoretically losing. A package deal does not replace the value of the loss of that individual, today, so you are indeed suggesting they accept a downgrade. Hope that helps. They are looking to replace him, his value to their franchise as an individual d-man, today, not over time.

That is a great trading strategy except for one problem. If a young top 4 LHD were available, the Jets would not be the only team making an offer. If Chevy or anyone expects a young top 4 straight up swap, they are dreaming, it is just not likely. A package might not make the team better next week, but the Jets are going no where this year anyway, so I am not sure that matters. The return over the long term is what will matter to Chevy and the Jets.

 

[garyturner3]

You post as if Trouba exists within a vacuum. He doesn't. It isn't solely a scenario of trading Trouba in exchange for a downgrade, period.

A more likely scenario is that Chevy eventually trades him as part of a multi-asset deal in exchange for an upgrade, or that he lets him sit out for a year.

That is a possible scenario for sure, but the most likely scenario I imagine is exactly what Winnipeg fans are reluctant to accept on here: a package deal containing a LD with slightly less value than Trouba plus another asset. Fans on here always use the "we want quality, not quantity" argument, but in reality most of these things end up turning out as quantity deals despite the initial ask. Quantity doesn't have to equal garbage though and I'm sure it won't in Trouba's case. The simple fact is there's just not many d-men in Chevy's asking price that are available and that probably won't change.

As others have said, it's very possible Trouba caves and resigns when this deadline gets closer because missing an entire year would be a disaster for him. But if Trouba doesn't cave and Chevy doesn't getting that asking price, I feel like it's much, much more likely Chevy moves off that asking price before making him sit all year. You can count the number of times that's happened in the last few decades on one hand so it's extremely unlikely no matter how patient Chevy is. Chevy's playing this as well as he can right now by being patient, but eventually patience runs out and you gotta do what's best for the team. Trouba sitting for an entire year most certainly lowers his value so that's not good for anybody.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Here is a good read for you on the Jets current situation as a franchise:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jets-window-opportunity-opening-sooner-later/

Read that, and then claim again that this team should "stockpile draft picks and prospects". Why should they, exactly? They have an overstocked pipeline as it is.

Those Pen's picks and prospects carry far less value here than you apparently believe they should.

I know the Jets situation fairly well. My question to you is how far are they from being a regular playoff team? I have them as a bubble playoff team heading into this season but the Goalie situation and Trouba has derailed this slightly.

No disrespect to any of there current players over 26 but this is the core... (add Byfuglien and Wheeler for leadership)
Scheifele (C, 23)
Burmistrov (C, RW, 25)
Laine (RW, 18)
Ehlers (LW, 20)
Armia (RW, 23)
Connor (LW, 19)
Myers (RD, 26)
Morrissey (LD, 21)
Trouba (RD, 22)

I say Murray (age 22) fits this group perfectly so find a way to make it happen and once again... take advantage of Pittsburgh cap/expansion draft situation. Another 1st round pick or more prospect in the 18-25 range is not a bad option considering Trouba wants out (IMO).

Realistically the Jets are 2 years (+) away from being a contender. Don't be a middle of the pack team. It's at the top or near the bottom!

 

[Maukkis]

I know the Jets situation fairly well. My question to you is how far are they from being a regular playoff team? I have them as a bubble playoff team heading into this season but the Goalie situation and Trouba has derailed this slightly.

No disrespect to any of there current players over 26 but this is the core... (add Byfuglien and Wheeler for leadership)
Scheifele (C, 23)
Burmistrov (C, RW, 25)
Laine (RW, 18)
Ehlers (LW, 20)
Armia (RW, 23)
Connor (LW, 19)
Myers (RD, 26)
Morrissey (LD, 21)
Trouba (RD, 22)

I say Murray (age 22) fits this group perfectly so find a way to make it happen and once again... take advantage of Pittsburgh cap/expansion draft situation. Another 1st round pick or more prospect in the 18-25 range is not a bad option considering Trouba wants out (IMO).

Realistically the Jets are 2 years (+) away from being a contender. Don't be a middle of the pack team. It's at the top or near the bottom!

Again, adding a goalie surely would boost our team, and most acknowledge that. But the problem is the expansion draft. We need to protect Hellebuyck, who has a potential to become that starter we need. He might not look great, but we're icing a way worse defense than what we had last year, which obviously makes his numbers worse. He was quite good last year in his ~30 games (.917 SV% if I remember correctly), but now, the team has took a big hit. It would be wiser to give Hellebuyck his chances and roll with him, and if it goes wrong, then it's time to look for a goalie.

The absolute biggest thing we can add NOW is a top 4 defenseman, and that's just how things are. We have enough lottery tickets already.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Again, adding a goalie surely would boost our team, and most acknowledge that. But the problem is the expansion draft. We need to protect Hellebuyck, who has a potential to become that starter we need. He might not look great, but we're icing a way worse defense than what we had last year, which obviously makes his numbers worse. He was quite good last year in his ~30 games (.917 SV% if I remember correctly), but now, the team has took a big hit. It would be wiser to give Hellebuyck his chances and roll with him, and if it goes wrong, then it's time to look for a goalie.

The absolute biggest thing we can add NOW is a top 4 defenseman, and that's just how things are. We have enough lottery tickets already.

Top 4 Dman are hard to get... just like a top 6 forward. It does suck that Trouba is being difficult. Shows pour character IMO! The question is can you get another equal top prospect D man in return for Trouba?

I don't know much about Hellebuyck but personally I'd jump at the opportunity to get Murray!

 

[cneely]

A sample size of Mike Peca isn't exactly a compelling argument. And does anybody remember what the initial asking price for him was before he sat out? For all we know it was much higher than what they eventually accepted. And absolutely sitting out hurt Drouin's value otherwise they would have been able to swing a deal for him at the time.

Pretty tough to find another comparable.

Drouin sat out pretty much the entire year last year. Do you think his value is lower now than the start of last year?

 

[CaptainChef]

I know the Jets situation fairly well. My question to you is how far are they from being a regular playoff team? I have them as a bubble playoff team heading into this season but the Goalie situation and Trouba has derailed this slightly.

No disrespect to any of there current players over 26 but this is the core... (add Byfuglien and Wheeler for leadership)
Scheifele (C, 23)
Burmistrov (C, RW, 25)
Laine (RW, 18)
Ehlers (LW, 20)
Armia (RW, 23)
Connor (LW, 19)
Myers (RD, 26)
Morrissey (LD, 21)
Trouba (RD, 22)

I say Murray (age 22) fits this group perfectly so find a way to make it happen and once again... take advantage of Pittsburgh cap/expansion draft situation. Another 1st round pick or more prospect in the 18-25 range is not a bad option considering Trouba wants out (IMO).

Realistically the Jets are 2 years (+) away from being a contender. Don't be a middle of the pack team. It's at the top or near the bottom!

Right off the bat, its clear you either do not know our situation as well as you think you do, or you're ignoring the obvious. There are three things we do not need right now: another young goalie or prospect, more draft picks, and more winger prospects.

Goalies especially, we have Hellybuyck who we expect to be very good (and who needs to be protected), and Comrie in the minors who has all the credentials to be excellent. Absolutely no desire to take on another young goalie that needs to be protected.

Likewise for forwards and draft picks. So unless you come a-calling with a good young defenceman, a couple of really good defensive prospects, or some combination of quality, you'll not reach first base when it comes to trading for Trouba.

If you really knew our situation, and followed anything in this thread, that should be immediately obvious

 

[cneely]

Going to take your word regarding those two being 5th & 8th overall draft picks. Nevertheless, it was still ranked as one of Milbury's greatest trades ever.

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-best-mike-milbury-trades/

Sure, Connolly and Pyatt both ended up having somewhat underwhelming careers. Doesn't change what they were at the time, however.

 

[garyturner3]

Pretty tough to find another comparable.

Drouin sat out pretty much the entire year last year. Do you think his value is lower now than the start of last year?

I think his value was lower during the time of his holdout than it was at the start of last season for sure. Drouin's not holding out now so his value at this point and time is not relevant in the Trouba comparison. Of course a player can restore any perceived value they lost after a holdout, but that doesn't change the fact a player's value goes down during one. By how much that value goes down is obviously debatable and in some cases it's very minuscule, but it absolutely has an impact.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Right off the bat, its clear you either do not know our situation as well as you think you do, or you're ignoring the obvious. There are three things we do not need right now: another young goalie or prospect, more draft picks, and more winger prospects.

Goalies especially, we have Hellybuyck who we expect to be very good (and who needs to be protected), and Comrie in the minors who has all the credentials to be excellent. Absolutely no desire to take on another young goalie that needs to be protected.

Likewise for forwards and draft picks. So unless you come a-calling with a good young defenceman, a couple of really good defensive prospects, or some combination of quality, you'll not reach first base when it comes to trading for Trouba.

If you really knew our situation, and followed anything in this thread, that should be immediately obvious

Clearly you should be more polite haha. Take advise from other fans as you see fit. There is a difference between "hoping" Hellybuyck will be good vs Murray who IS a pretty darn good Goalie! A good GM deals with the circumstances that he is facing and also takes advantage of opportunities that are out there.

If the Pens gave me Murray for Truba with other pieces (including a 1st round pick), then I'd take it! Then I'd trade some of the forward prospects at some point (and future picks) to replace Trouba!

 

[Maukkis]

Top 4 Dman are hard to get... just like a top 6 forward. It does suck that Trouba is being difficult. Shows pour character IMO! The question is can you get another equal top prospect D man in return for Trouba?

I don't know much about Hellebuyck but personally I'd jump at the opportunity to get Murray!

Oh, apparently forgot to address the Murray issue.

The Pens won't trade him. As soon as his hand has recovered, they'll test him. They want to see that the playoff run wasn't a fluke, because that's what will decide if they ship out Fleury/buy him out. Also, Murray just got extended, so it's not expected to see him leave anytime soon.

And Hellebuyck is probably the next best thing after Murray, when it comes to young NHL goalies. Well, Vasilevskiy is also really good. But anyway.

 

[135ace]

Clearly you should be more polite haha. Take advise from other fans as you see fit. There is a difference between "hoping" Hellybuyck will be good vs Murray who IS a pretty darn good Goalie! A good GM deals with the circumstances that he is facing and also takes advantage of opportunities that are out there.

I don't think they get it. Most Jets fans seem to think Hellybuyck is going to be a Vezina caliber goalie. They're also expecting a Norris caliber return for Trouba.

I can understand fans being optimistic, but this "we don't need a goalie because we have an above average prospect" is pretty silly. As is the "we don't need draft picks". The Jets window isn't now. Picks to pick up more D and C prospects will certainly help and to think that their current prospects will make them a cup contender is honestly quite foolish.

 

[Snowman]

I don't think they get it. Most Jets fans seem to think Hellybuyck is going to be a Vezina caliber goalie. They're also expecting a Norris caliber return for Trouba.

I can understand fans being optimistic, but this "we don't need a goalie because we have an above average prospect" is pretty silly. As is the "we don't need draft picks". The Jets window isn't now. Picks to pick up more D and C prospects will certainly help and to think that their current prospects will make them a cup contender is honestly quite foolish.

Where on the other hand, we who follow the team, find it silly that fans of other teams only interested in getting a bargain on a good, young defenseman and that no nothing about the Jets keep trying to convince us that their offers of "mystery boxes" and un-needed players are the way to go.

 

[Maukkis]

I don't think they get it. Most Jets fans seem to think Hellybuyck is going to be a Vezina caliber goalie. They're also expecting a Norris caliber return for Trouba.

I can understand fans being optimistic, but this "we don't need a goalie because we have an above average prospect" is pretty silly. As is the "we don't need draft picks". The Jets window isn't now. Picks to pick up more D and C prospects will certainly help and to think that their current prospects will make them a cup contender is honestly quite foolish.

If a prospect/futures deal was something Chevy would accept, why do Trouba's rights still belong to the Jets?

I'd take a blue chip defenseman prospect for Trouba, if one was offered. That would be Provorov, Werenski, in other words the absolute best. I guess it's safe to say that either that hasn't been the case, or Chevy and I don't think in a similar way.

 

[wintersej]

If a prospect/futures deal was something Chevy would accept, why do Trouba's rights still belong to the Jets?

I'd take a blue chip defenseman prospect for Trouba, if one was offered. That would be Provorov, Werenski, in other words the absolute best. I guess it's safe to say that either that hasn't been the case, or Chevy and I don't think in a similar way.

Honestly, I think Werenski has more value than Trouba right now. Those ELC years have a lot of value in a cap world and he has been very very good. I wouldn't deal Provorov for Trouba, either.

 

[Maukkis]

Honestly, I think Werenski has more value than Trouba right now. Those ELC years have a lot of value in a cap world and he has been very very good. I wouldn't deal Provorov for Trouba, either.

Could be the case. Then again, a proven option is always an attractive one.

 

[Heldig]

Sure, Connolly and Pyatt both ended up having somewhat underwhelming careers. Doesn't change what they were at the time, however.

Whenever talk is of trading an established young player for prospects I remind myself we once traded Teemu Selanne for Oleg Tverdovsky and Chad Kilger. They had lost of potential too.

I say trade Trouba ONLY for an established, equivalent player.

 

[Weezeric]

This is silly. There's been maybe 3 similar situations to Trouba's in recent history. Drouin, johansen, and turris. They all ended up differently and imo represent the 3 ways this could go.

Drouin- he sat out for a significant period of time. Yzerman refuses to trade him and he eventually rejoined the team and seems to be happy playing for them now.

Johansen- held out for a while. Eventually signed a bridge deal and was traded 15 months later for a very specific return. 1 for 1.

Turris- holds out and signs a bridge deal just before the deadline. Gets traded shortly thereafter for a poor return just to get rid of the problem. Undoubtedly a loss.

I don't know why anyone would argue that following the Turris scenario would be the best asset management. IMO, trouba will follow johansen's path. He will sign a bridge deal and be traded at the draft or sometime next season. The only way he is traded now is if Chevy can take advantage of the ducks cap crunch. Otherwise he will sign.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh, apparently forgot to address the Murray issue.

The Pens won't trade him. As soon as his hand has recovered, they'll test him. They want to see that the playoff run wasn't a fluke, because that's what will decide if they ship out Fleury/buy him out. Also, Murray just got extended, so it's not expected to see him leave anytime soon.

And Hellebuyck is probably the next best thing after Murray, when it comes to young NHL goalies. Well, Vasilevskiy is also really good. But anyway.

Pens are currently over the Cap by $4.5M (yes currently) and must do something about very soon! Buy out Fleury with 3 years left after this year with $5.75M per season... REALLY, You can't be serious!? If I was a Pens fans, I'd be seriously worried what will happen in the next month. Fleury is a problem and Murray is who they want to keep but Fleury has a M-NTC and NMC. Something has to give!

 

[JetsHomer]

Pens are currently over the Cap by $4.5M (yes currently) and must do something about very soon! Buy out Fleury with 3 years left after this year with $5.75M per season... REALLY, You can't be serious!? If I was a Pens fans, I'd be seriously worried what will happen in the next month. Fleury is a problem and Murray is who they want to keep but Fleury has a M-NTC and NMC. Something has to give!

You are aware that up until the playoffs last season, Hellebuyck and Murray were looked at in pretty much the exact same light right? Hellebuyck even played well in the NHL last year after dominating the NCAA and playing great in the AHL. He's also the exact same age as Murray, and we'd be sure to lose him if we made a trade for a overpaid goalie! Please do some research before you try and tell a fanbase what their team needs.