Proposal: Trouba Mega thread Part V

[135ace]

Trouba's going to get moved and get a Dougie Hamilton type of return. That may be disappointing to Jets fans, but from reading this thread the worst offers aren't from Toronto or Rangers fans offering way below market value for Trouba, but from Jets fans who think he's a norris trophy winner. Asking for Kreider + a 1st, or trading trouble for Lindholm, etc, it's such nonsense. Most Jets fans seem to be completely out of touch with reality.

 

[Liferleafer]

If the Jets were that desperate, I'd be extremely surprised & terribly disappointed. There's a reason why half the leaf fan base keeps throwing Gardiner in trade proposals & it isn't because he's that valuable. And Kapanen is an OK prospect, but a position which we have absolutely no need for.

Gardiner isn't being "thrown in" to trade proposals, he is being offered for Trouba because of the LHD vs RHD debate. Gardiner is also signed for much less than Trouba is seeking while being close in skill....so i really am not to bothered is the Leafs miss out on that deal.

 

[Pongs21]

Trouba's going to get moved and get a Dougie Hamilton type of return. That may be disappointing to Jets fans, but from reading this thread the worst offers aren't from Toronto or Rangers fans offering way below market value for Trouba, but from Jets fans who think he's a norris trophy winner. Asking for Kreider + a 1st, or trading trouble for Lindholm, etc, it's such nonsense. Most Jets fans seem to be completely out of touch with reality.

We were told the exact same thing with E. Kane and look how that turned out for us. I havn't seen any Jets fan suggest Kreider + 1st, and proposal's for Lindholm have included previous 1st round pick FWD on top of Trouba and a cap dump being added with Lindholm. Lindholm rumors, as BS as they may or may not be, suggest they want a top young D in return, ANA also needs cap space and cheap young FWDS. What other team has a top young D available, with cap space and young fwd's to spare??? However unlikely Lindholm may be, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that something could happen between WPG and ANA until one or both of Trouba and Lindholm are signed and or traded. So I guess we'll soon find out who's out to lunch here soon.

 

[Maukkis]

He will be welcomed back. The players for the most part know what he's going through & why. They may not necessarily symphatize with him, but they understand his struggle. They want him back on the Jets if they want to win. So yes, they accept him back readily.

Now, if he were to fire his agent in the process .... then you really get buy in. Blame it all on bad advice from his agent, new start.

Nope. I'm willing to bet that if he signs, he pulls a Turris. That's when the return is going to sink.

It would be a catastrophic mistake to let him play. Either make him sit or trade him, but do not give him any leverage by letting him affect the on-ice product (although I don't know if it's even possible to make that defense any worse, but anyway). It's the only way he can gain anything now: by sitting, he can't do anything to speed up the process of getting traded. If he plays, he can be a cancer in the locker room and play like a wet noodle. It might sting the team, but it stings even more when you see a guy ruining the team from inside, and then not getting anything of need back for him, since you have to get rid of him.

 

[haveandare]

Agreed.
I think the Jets are going to end up calling his bluff.
There is no way he'd risk a whole year. It would terrible for his development, not to mention he'd have a hard time recouping the 4-5 mill he lost over his career.

But the jets are willing to let him sit all year? Becoming an even less desirable place for players on the fence about being there? Seriously risking diminishing the ability and therefore value of a very valuable asset?

I'm confused as to whether Chevy thinks the point of his job is to assemble the best team or to be as rigid as possible toward some ends that aren't very clear at all.

I'd hope NYR would offer Miller, Skjei and a non first round pick at the most. Maybe some other team would offer more. If they're trying to build a team and not set themselves back to send some silly message, WPG should take the best deal they get and be rid of this situation. They're compounding all of their problems if they let him sit a year.

 

[Boxscore]

I still think Trouba would be a perfect fit in Philly. Something around Morin+ maybe?

 

[Maukkis]

I still think Trouba would be a perfect fit in Philly. Something around Morin+ maybe?

A question. What's the first thing you think when you see Morin being offered?

My answer would be "I want something really good without giving up something really good". That's what this proposal is, a horrible lowball offer.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I still think Trouba would be a perfect fit in Philly. Something around Morin+ maybe?

Pretty sure it would start with Provorov and that would be a no go from Philly Or Travis Sanheim and i can't see Hextall doing either one.

 

[Atoyot]

Pretty sure it would start with Provorov and that would be a no go from Philly Or Travis Sanheim and i can't see Hextall doing either one.

I'd be fine with it starting with Sanheim.

 

[Curufinwe]

Whatever AAV Trouba is going to sign for, at least that much cap has to be going back to the Jets. And Sanheim counts for zero of that total, because he's in the AHL.

 

[Evil Little]

Agreed.
I think the Jets are going to end up calling his bluff.
There is no way he'd risk a whole year. It would terrible for his development, not to mention he'd have a hard time recouping the 4-5 mill he lost over his career.

Closer to $8m, since it's his first UFA year that he's losing.

 

[Gump Hasek]

But the jets are willing to let him sit all year? Becoming an even less desirable place for players on the fence about being there? Seriously risking diminishing the ability and therefore value of a very valuable asset?

I'll take the bait and offer a reply. The party diminishing the value of the asset is the RFA that refused to negotiate a contract and demanded a trade despite that the team holds his rights for four more seasons.

The team appears to not be immediately caving to the demands of a player that holds minimal rights at best.

I'm confused as to whether Chevy thinks the point of his job is to assemble the best team or to be as rigid as possible toward some ends that aren't very clear at all.

I'd hope NYR would offer Miller, Skjei and a non first round pick at the most. Maybe some other team would offer more. If they're trying to build a team and not set themselves back to send some silly message, WPG should take the best deal they get and be rid of this situation. They're compounding all of their problems if they let him sit a year.

I'd conversely hope that Chevy would laugh at that offer and will instead hold out for a return that replaces Trouba's value in their D-core versus accepting a massive downgrade at D and a forward that they don't need. They don't want picks and prospects; they want full compensation for the loss via an NHL player of equivalent experience, talent, and age. Don't like it? Too bad. The GM has the full support of the ownership and those are the parties that matter.

 

[Hunter368]

I still think Trouba would be a perfect fit in Philly. Something around Morin+ maybe?

That's not even remotely close

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Whatever AAV Trouba is going to sign for, at least that much cap has to be going back to the Jets. And Sanheim counts for zero of that total, because he's in the AHL.

Exactly sounding like Trouba would want at least $5.5 million per long term, So yeah Sanheim alone wont cut it Hextall would need to send another expensive piece to Winnipeg to fit Trouba in depending on how much cap Philly has left.

 

[Smitty426]

Would a three way trade with Edmonton, Nashville, and Winnipeg work? Details will come later.

Trouba's going to get moved and get a Dougie Hamilton type of return. That may be disappointing to Jets fans, but from reading this thread the worst offers aren't from Toronto or Rangers fans offering way below market value for Trouba, but from Jets fans who think he's a norris trophy winner. Asking for Kreider + a 1st, or trading trouble for Lindholm, etc, it's such nonsense. Most Jets fans seem to be completely out of touch with reality.

Would a trade with NJ's 2017 1st (not protected) to Minny for Scandella/Brodin. And a sweetener.
Minny has no 2nd this year and are tight to cap
And then that D man to Winny with maybe an add

The other scenario close to Hamilton is NJs 2017 1st, and 2 2nds

Jersey has spot for Trouba to be #1, unless severson goes nuts this year, has the money to cover it, is a need

 

[Pongs21]

But the jets are willing to let him sit all year? Becoming an even less desirable place for players on the fence about being there? Seriously risking diminishing the ability and therefore value of a very valuable asset?

I'm confused as to whether Chevy thinks the point of his job is to assemble the best team or to be as rigid as possible toward some ends that aren't very clear at all.

I'd hope NYR would offer Miller, Skjei and a non first round pick at the most. Maybe some other team would offer more. If they're trying to build a team and not set themselves back to send some silly message, WPG should take the best deal they get and be rid of this situation. They're compounding all of their problems if they let him sit a year.

If Trouba sits out for the year, that's on Trouba. It's Trouba's camp that is not willing to negotiate. The Jet's have made attempts to sign him and cannot force him to sign a contract. I think it would be an even bigger mistake to the organization for set a precedent for the team and possibly around the league that a RFA coming off his ELC cant dictate where and how he plays.

 

[haveandare]

I'll take the bait and offer a reply. The party diminishing the value of the asset is the RFA that refused to negotiate a contract and demanded a trade despite that the team holds his rights for four more seasons.

The team appears to not be immediately caving to the demands of a player that has conversely holds minimal rights at best.



I'd conversely hope that Chevy would laugh at that offer and will instead hold out for a return that replaces Trouba's value in their D-core versus accepting a massive downgrade at D and a forward that they don't need. They don't want picks and prospects; they want full compensation for the loss via an NHL player of equivalent experience, talent, and age. Don't like it? Too bad. The GM has the full support of the ownership that those are the parties that matter.

It's really not though. If a team doesn't trade an RFA who 100% refuses to play for them, and that RFA sits all year, getting worse, becoming less valuable - that is on at least equal parts the player and the team to blame. The team building ramifications are squarely on the team itself while the career ramifications are squarely on the player.

Skjei isn't Trouba for sure, but part of Trouba's complaint is that he's not getting the position he wants. Skjei can and does play the side that the Jets want Trouba to play, and he's still quite young with solid pro experience under his belt.

Miller is not a need? You've got Stafford flanking a top tier center – Miller is 7 years younger and outscored Stafford last year. You've got a 24 year old rookie in Tanev doing nothing in the NHL so far in a small handful of games with a decent hockey east career as his entire relevant resume. The jets were 20th in goals for last year. Miller seems to fill a need if you look at what the team has and what Miller is instead of focusing solely on the GMs fantasies about getting pack an identical player to Trouba with different handedness.

The GM can want whatever he pleases, but he's 100% not going to get what he publicly says he wants. No team in their right mind is trading an equivalent player that is signed for a player who is not signed and is currently holding out on his team while people are having realistic discussions about whether or not he'll miss an entire year. Don't like it? Too bad, its basic logic. This is the Jets problem and no-one elses, no team is going to give WPG a great deal at their own expense when they don't have to.

Again, what exactly is the point of this? The GM should be building the best team. Once you accept the basic negotiation logic that lefty Trouba isn't coming to them, whats best for team building – taking the best deal you can get or risking sitting a prime asset and diminishing it for the future for the sake of "teaching a lesson?" And what's that lesson? That any NCAA player who gets drafted by WPG and is even considering staying in school 100% should? That any UFA who isn't completely sure they want to be there for the duration of their contract shouldn't sign there? Getting players to come and stay is already an issue, why on earth is the GM actively trying to exacerbate it?

 

[haveandare]

If Trouba sits out for the year, that's on Trouba. It's Trouba's camp that is not willing to negotiate. The Jet's have made attempts to sign him and cannot force him to sign a contract. I think it would be an even bigger mistake to the organization for set a precedent for the team and possibly around the league that a RFA coming off his ELC cant dictate where and how he plays.

The consequences will partially be the team's to deal with. Who it's "on" is fairly meaningless in the context of dealing with the outcome. If he's out all year, the Jets still have a player who doesn't want to be there, a player they need to trade, only now that player is worth a fraction of what they were worth previously. That would in no way be a win for them no matter how "tough" the GM would look. That'd be a loss in that they'd have lost a ton of value on Trouba with no reward, and it's be a loss in that it'd make an already somewhat unattractive location even more unattractive.

The precedent has been set around the league that players aren't stuck on the team that drafted them until UFA. People have found their way out before and they will again. Most teams don't happen to have the depth at the position to even entertain letting those players miss a season so things get wrapped up quick in most cases. Right or wrong, the players have ways to wiggle out of these things and Chevy potentially shooting his own team in the foot isn't going to change that.

 

[cneely]

Skjei isn't Trouba for sure, but part of Trouba's complaint is that he's not getting the position he wants. Skjei can and does play the side that the Jets want Trouba to play, and he's still quite young with solid pro experience under his belt.

Miller is not a need? You've got Stafford flanking a top tier center – Miller is 7 years younger and outscored Stafford last year. You've got a 24 year old rookie in Tanev doing nothing in the NHL so far in a small handful of games with a decent hockey east career as his entire relevant resume. The jets were 20th in goals for last year. Miller seems to fill a need if you look at what the team has and what Miller is instead of focusing solely on the GMs fantasies about getting pack an identical player to Trouba with different handedness.

The Jets have guys like Petan, Deleo, Roslovic and Dano in the minors because they don't have any room at forward. I think most Jets fans would throw in a decent forward prospect with Trouba to upgrade at defence. Defence is the major need, not forward.

The GM can want whatever he pleases, but he's 100% not going to get what he publicly says he wants. No team in their right mind is trading an equivalent player that is signed for a player who is not signed and is currently holding out on his team while people are having realistic discussions about whether or not he'll miss an entire year. Don't like it? Too bad, its basic logic. This is the Jets problem and no-one elses, no team is going to give WPG a great deal at their own expense when they don't have to.

2 things. First, Trouba is technically a free agent. He can talk to any team he wants. I highly doubt any team is going to trade for him without having a deal in principal before hand. This eliminates any concern about him being 'unsigned'. Secondly, teams will trade value for him if they thing it improves their team.

Again, what exactly is the point of this? The GM should be building the best team. Once you accept the basic negotiation logic that lefty Trouba isn't coming to them, whats best for team building – taking the best deal you can get or risking sitting a prime asset and diminishing it for the future for the sake of "teaching a lesson?" And what's that lesson? That any NCAA player who gets drafted by WPG and is even considering staying in school 100% should? That any UFA who isn't completely sure they want to be there for the duration of their contract shouldn't sign there? Getting players to come and stay is already an issue, why on earth is the GM actively trying to exacerbate it?

What's the lesson to any RFA on the Jets in the future if you give in to his demands and accept pennies on the dollar? Its okay if you don't like it here, just take your ball and go home, and we'll make sure we deal you to where you would like to play.

 

[lomiller1]

Is there a link to a quote that he doesn't want to be in Canada or is this just an assumption?

It’s been a rumor in the local market since the end of last year long before any trade request became public. McKenzie has also reported an NHL GM “speculating†that he may not want to play in Canada. It would explain why he wasn’t in some of the off season trades Like Hall for Larsson. Trouba’s both younger and better than Larsson and even though the Jets are lot really interested in a forward, one of Hall’s stature would certainly be of interest.

If you are not going to take him public position that then not wanting to play outside the US is certainly the most plausible alternative. (Conversely the idea that it’s Winnipeg specific IS just speculation with no supporting evidence)

 

[cneely]

The consequences will partially be the team's to deal with. Who it's "on" is fairly meaningless in the context of dealing with the outcome. If he's out all year, the Jets still have a player who doesn't want to be there, a player they need to trade, only now that player is worth a fraction of what they were worth previously. That would in no way be a win for them no matter how "tough" the GM would look. That'd be a loss in that they'd have lost a ton of value on Trouba with no reward, and it's be a loss in that it'd make an already somewhat unattractive location even more unattractive.

Mike Peca was the last player to sit out a full year. He was dealt for a 20 year old 5th overall pick coming off a 0.5 PPG season, and a 20 year old 6'4" 8th overall pick. It didn't seem to hurt Peca's value.

The precedent has been set around the league that players aren't stuck on the team that drafted them until UFA. People have found their way out before and they will again. Most teams don't happen to have the depth at the position to even entertain letting those players miss a season so things get wrapped up quick in most cases. Right or wrong, the players have ways to wiggle out of these things and Chevy potentially shooting his own team in the foot isn't going to change that.

Chevy will do whats best for the Jets, contrary to your opinion.

 

[lomiller1]

The only city in the league closer to Detroit then Toronto is Columbus( I think).

He lives in Florida in the off season.

 

[Boxscore]

That's not even remotely close

In all fairness, I'm sure Bruins fans said the same thing about Dougie Hamilton before he was dealt.

 

[haveandare]

The Jets have guys like Petan, Deleo, Roslovic and Dano in the minors because they don't have any room at forward. I think most Jets fans would throw in a decent forward prospect with Trouba to upgrade at defence. Defence is the major need, not forward.



2 things. First, Trouba is technically a free agent. He can talk to any team he wants. I highly doubt any team is going to trade for him without having a deal in principal before hand. This eliminates any concern about him being 'unsigned'. Secondly, teams will trade value for him if they thing it improves their team.


What's the lesson to any RFA on the Jets in the future if you give in to his demands and accept pennies on the dollar? Its okay if you don't like it here, just take your ball and go home, and we'll make sure we deal you to where you would like to play.

Are any of those guys as proven as JT Miller? Again, he'd be an upgrade to your top line today. Anyone who got cut so that Tanev for example could play every game is not on that level.

The "unsigned" part is about leverage, not whether a new team could sign him. Teams know WPG is in a bind because they have a good player who refuses to sign. They aren't going to trade WPG an equivalent player because they know they have more leverage than WPG does. WPG has a problem they need to solve, and a team willing to trade an equal player (putting aside the question of why they'd even want to do that), doesn't have that same problem, so they will ask for a sweetener at least.

What's the lesson to any future UFAs or NCAA players if they sit Trouba and put him back as a player? Don't sign in WPG unless you want to stay here the entire time for certain. Play 4 years of college and go anywhere else. The fact is players can and have and will continue to weasel out of situations they don't want to be in before UFA. It happens. Again, the point is to build the best team possible, not to be as ideologically rigid as you can. If players don't want to be there to the point they refuse to play, and there are deals on the table for them, take them. It's not fair or ideal but it's a reality teams like WPG have to work around. Draft guys that want to play there. Sign guys that want to play there. If you end up with guys that don't, you're going to have to deviate from your ideal plan to keep going and ice the best lineup you can.

 

[Maukkis]

In all fairness, I'm sure Bruins fans said the same thing about Dougie Hamilton before he was dealt.

Completely different scenarios. Boston was under a threat of an offer sheet, Winnipeg isn't. Hamilton got traded for what was just a bit more than the offer sheet compensation which they wouldn't have been able to match (1st+2nd+2nd). There's close to zero percent chance of Trouba signing an offer sheet, so your point is invalid.