Trevor Timmins Part II

[Habs Halifax]

Timmins can't do miracles drafting 20-30, year after year.

The last 3 top 10 picks have been:

- Sergachev ( not in the NHL yet, but seems to be a good pick)
- Galchenyuk (Already scored 30 goals)
- Price (Elite goaltender)

Not too shabby. Can someone else do a better job? maybe. But are we going to judge him on the picks from 20 to 30?

Don't forget McDonagh at 12th overall too! Too bad he was traded for Gomez. No way we trade Sergachev!

 

[Hoople]

Every one here knows my opinion about that clown.

He's the major reason that we have a so bad and thin prospect pool. He drafted so many busts and many of them were first rounders. In today's NHL, you can't afford that.

Should have been fired a long time ago.

Exactly. We need a new perspective away from his love of undersized forwards who are either top line or useless. And sad for us, most are useless.

 

[Justin11]

Don't forget McDonagh at 12th overall too! Too bad he was traded for Gomez. No way we trade Sergachev!

Agreed. The 2007 draft is by far the best one. It's not his fault that incompetent GM's traded them away. How people forget.

 

[Habs]

'Most' teams have the same amount of success as Timmins, which is why Montreal is an average club. I don't care for his smug little attitude either, dude has a severe case of little man's syndrome. Standing on his little stool at the podium, trying to speak into the mic, Bettman towering over him...

 

[Lebowski]

'Most' teams have the same amount of success as Timmins, which is why Montreal is an average club. I don't care for his smug little attitude either, dude has a severe case of little man's syndrome. Standing on his little stool at the podium, trying to speak into the mic, Bettman towering over him...

What?

 

[the]

'Most' teams have the same amount of success as Timmins, which is why Montreal is an average club. I don't care for his smug little attitude either, dude has a severe case of little man's syndrome. Standing on his little stool at the podium, trying to speak into the mic, Bettman towering over him...

 

[FinnHab]

1C debate heated again during the tdl. Gm's come and gm's go, but one man stays behind the scenes with he's drafting strategies. Timmins has been with Habs 15 yrs and still 1C is missing. He should be criticized more, failure is so obvious.

 

[Whitesnake]

I'm pretty sure having two 1st round picks is brought up, and it's used as an example of what we should be doing more of. We should be out there acquiring picks so that we can utilize Timmins more.

The amount and quality of picks should change your expectations for the draft. It's why 2012 will likely go down as a worse draft then say 2010 or 2013 despite the best player being from the 2012 draft.

If you give a guy picks, 17, 22, 97, 108, 113, 117, 138, 147, 168, 198, 207 what are your expectations in terms of NHL players both number and quality of player?

Are you sure that the same person that wants to get more 1st rounder ALSO are fine with tanking? 'Cause how do you get 1st rounder without selling? And yep, a 2012 draft will, in my mind, be looked as worse than the 2010 draft for the reasons you mentioned. Never said the contrary. Actually, 2013 might be heading towards an even worse draft because of also the same reason and because contrary to 2012, we won't have drafted a key player in this. All hope are on Lehkonen right now.

People keep whining about Timmins not having enough picks to work with and yet in 2012 and 2013, he's had 11 top 100 picks. 7 top 60 picks. And as of now, we have 1 great NHL'er. 1 kid that maybe goes that direction in Lehkonen. And no other key players from it. Just like 2006, 4 top 70 picks with only Ryan White to show for. Sure, 2008 was a disaster to begin with, strangely they decided to go the ultimate boom or bust picks despite not having a lot to work with. Quailer who was incredibly raw with no real indication as to where this guy was going, Missiaen this giant goalie of a man that was also incredibly raw, Trunev this little midget star that could etc. But yeah, not enough picks to work with for sure.

As far as your last questions, well 2 picks out of top 30 makes me expecting NHL'ers. And at least 1 very good one. ESPECIALLY since I'm being told we have THE BEST in the business.....I have to know what differentiate the best from the others if it's not his ability to have a better "percentage" than what you keep giving us. If the percentage is suppose to reflect the "average" well it means that DA BEST will have greater number no? So that's my expectations. And based on his past, mostly pre 2007, I'm expecting that he finds us some gems à la Gallagher with his other picks. That's what the expectations of THE BEST has to be.

Oh and enough excuses with the Bozon and Reway "illness". In NO WAY were those 2 pencilled to be great NHL'ers. So easy to say that they were "just" slowed down by this and they were....but IN NO WAY should it be put in the "Oh but they would have surely made it if it wouldn't have been because of their illness" category. You don't want them to be talked in the fail category? Fine. Don't add them in the "great picks" category either.

 

[montreal]

Timmins can't do miracles drafting 20-30, year after year.

The last 3 top 10 picks have been:

- Sergachev ( not in the NHL yet, but seems to be a good pick)
- Galchenyuk (Already scored 30 goals)
- Price (Elite goaltender)

Not too shabby. Can someone else do a better job? maybe. But are we going to judge him on the picks from 20 to 30?

agreed. Our past drafting pre-Timmins is a nightmare, that doesn't mean someone can't be better but it would be a big risk when imo he's much further down the chart on the list of problems for this organization. If they don't improve at the development level, it's kind of pointless to make changes to the head scout since most will have to go through the AHL.

Timmins has been with Habs 15 yrs and still 1C is missing.

Galchenyuk

 

[scrubadam]

agreed. Our past drafting pre-Timmins is a nightmare, that doesn't mean someone can't be better but it would be a big risk when imo he's much further down the chart on the list of problems for this organization. If they don't improve at the development level, it's kind of pointless to make changes to the head scout since most will have to go through the AHL.



Galchenyuk

I guess depends who you ask. In the TDL thread MB hasn't addressed the 1C position in 5 years.

So either TT drafted a 1C and MB addressed it (AG is his pick) or MB didn't get a 1C and TT didn't draft a 1C in 15 years.

 

[scrubadam]

lack of picks or whatever TT screwed the habs with his dismal performance between 08-11. I am willing to add 12 and possibly 13 in there.

Go through the drafts in 08/09/10/11 and look at who TT took and the names taken after his picks and you can see how much better a team we would have if TT did what he supposedly the best at.

 

[Lebowski]

lack of picks or whatever TT screwed the habs with his dismal performance between 08-11. I am willing to add 12 and possibly 13 in there.

Go through the drafts in 08/09/10/11 and look at who TT took and the names taken after his picks and you can see how much better a team we would have if TT did what he supposedly the best at.

You can do that with, quite literally, every single head scout, of every single team, of every single professional league, of any professional sport.

As far as 08/09/10/11 go, it shouldn't be surprising, considering we had exactly 4 top 60 picks in 4 years.

I'll give credit to the Timmins complaints once Timmins fails to bring in talent on a consistent basis in spite of being given sufficient ammunition to find said talent at the draft. Until then, I'll blame the poor drafting record in large part on shortsighted management.

 

[scrubadam]

You can do that with, quite literally, every single head scout, of every single team, of every single professional league, of any professional sport.

As far as 08/09/10/11 go, it shouldn't be surprising, considering we had exactly 4 top 60 picks in 4 years.

I'll give credit to the Timmins complaints once Timmins fails to bring in talent on a consistent basis in spite of being given sufficient ammunition to find said talent at the draft. Until then, I'll blame the poor drafting record in large part on shortsighted management.

so its on management that TT took Tinordi/Leblanc/Beau over Krieder/Kuz/Klefboom? Dietz/Dider over Gaudreau/Shaw?

Imagine Kuznetzov down the middle with Gaudreau and Krieder on teh wings. Klefboom on the backend and our 2nds that we didn't have to trade for Shaw. And I just listed 5 players missed. So how about he gets 2 out of those 5 still would make a big difference.

But I guess its all Gainey and Gauthiers fault. But if thats the case then 2007 Max/McD/PK is all on management too and TT shouldn't get any credit. Its only because of management that TT had those picks. So in reality TT is neither good nor bad because its not on him. So we can say Gainey is good for drafting, Gauthier is bad, and MB undetermined leaning towards bad.

 

[Lebowski]

so its on management that TT took Tinordi/Leblanc/Beau over Krieder/Kuz/Klefboom? Dietz/Dider over Gaudreau/Shaw?

Imagine Kuznetzov down the middle with Gaudreau and Krieder on teh wings. Klefboom on the backend and our 2nds that we didn't have to trade for Shaw. And I just listed 5 players missed. So how about he gets 2 out of those 5 still would make a big difference.

But I guess its all Gainey and Gauthiers fault. But if thats the case then 2007 Max/McD/PK is all on management too and TT shouldn't get any credit. Its only because of management that TT had those picks. So in reality TT is neither good nor bad because its not on him. So we can say Gainey is good for drafting, Gauthier is bad, and MB undetermined leaning towards bad.

You're being so selective in your argumentation it hurts my brain.

You argue the Leblanc pick (which was dreadful, but had political reasons) over Kreider, but I don't see you arguing, say, Subban over Theo Ruth. Or Pacioretty over Esposito. Or Galchenyuk over Terevainen. The sooner you realize you can make these hindsight arguments with literally every single team, the sooner you'll understand Timmins isn't to blame. Not entirely, in any case.

You can't assess a scout's job by cherry picking whatever selections proves your narrative. You have to look at the overall body of work, and in Timmins' case, he has had to deal with a limited amount of quality picks, repeatedly, over a large sample size. He has still managed to draft most of what constitutes the core of a playoff team today, with, again, very limited means.

P.S.: I know how *****ing about Beaulieu has become a national sport around here, but let's stop acting like Klefbom is on a completely different tier.

 

[montreal]

lack of picks or whatever TT screwed the habs with his dismal performance between 08-11. I am willing to add 12 and possibly 13 in there.

Go through the drafts in 08/09/10/11 and look at who TT took and the names taken after his picks and you can see how much better a team we would have if TT did what he supposedly the best at.

just as you can do the oppose for the guys he did pick like Subban, Price, Galchenyuk, etc... It works both ways.

For me the draft that is looking really bad is 2012. Of course '08 and '09 were terrible but he had 1 pick in the top 85 in '08 and 1 pick in the top 64 in '09. Kristo and Leblanc were those picks. I don't fault him for the Kristo pick, the guy was great in the NCAA but just never progressed enough. Leblanc while i blame Timmins, I feel there's a lot of blame to go around as I've stated many times before.

'10 to me isn't that bad, 1 pick in the top 112 and at the time getting a 6'6 defensemen was still seen as a good idea. Add Gallagher and I can live with that draft.

'11 he had 1 pick in the top 98. Beaulieu is an NHLer that has progressed each year despite poor development imo. It says something when the kid does better when playing with Gonchar then his AHL coach who was a former NHL defensmen himself. I think highly of Nygren and he would be in the NHL if not for injury, how he would have done is anyone's guess. Didier has had some injury issues but at one point he was on our top pairing in the AHL last year. Don't know what their plan is there. Dietz who knows if he ever sees the NHL again or not. Pribyl I liked what I saw from him in the Czech league last year and have heard good things about him in the AHL this year.

But the '12 draft was when he finally had 3 top 51 picks since '07 and he blew 2 of them. Granted Collberg got us Vanek but to me even though it was at 33rd overall, he needs to get that pick right. Thrower has been injured more then healthy but still they could have done a better job there in hindsight. I still have high hopes for Hudon so that would at least turn it into a decent draft if he ends up doing what I think he can along with Galchenyuk.

'13 is where he's going to need to turn out as he had 4 top 55 picks. I would give it several more years but we'll see.

'14 could be a real sleeper draft class as most know Scherbak well but I am very impressed with the last 2 picks in Hawkey and Evans. Very hard to guess what will happen with them but right now they are easily top 15 prospects and I wouldn't be surprised if both are top 10 prospects next year.

 

[scrubadam]

You're being so selective in your argumentation it hurts my brain.

You argue the Leblanc pick (which was dreadful, but had political reasons) over Kreider, but I don't see you arguing, say, Subban over Theo Ruth. Or Pacioretty over Esposito. Or Galchenyuk over Terevainen. The sooner you realize you can make these hindsight arguments with literally every single team, the sooner you'll understand Timmins isn't to blame. Not entirely, in any case.

You can't assess a scout's job by cherry picking whatever selections proves your narrative. You have to look at the overall body of work, and in Timmins' case, he has had to deal with a limited amount of quality picks, repeatedly, over a large sample size. He has still managed to draft most of what constitutes the core of a playoff team today, with, again, very limited means.

P.S.: I know how *****ing about Beaulieu has become a national sport around here, but let's stop acting like Klefbom is on a completely different tier.

Its rich that you accuse me of being selective yet you keep pointing to 2007 or any of TT's good picks to prop him up. Lets say we are both being selective and we are both using hindsight to evalute TT. Thats the only way you can evaluate a scout is use hindsight and look at his picks and the players that he missed.

And if I am looking at his overall body of work its very simple to me. up until 07 he did a great job and drafted well and got lots of steals. Since then he has been average to putrid with 09-11 being putrid in all the players he missed out on. 12/13 is looking bleak outside of his gifted 3 OVA and Lek. 14/15/16 has no valuable pieces that any other team wants in a trade except for the 9th OVA pick.

So keep living off TT's past his 07 and before. I have always said TT did a great job with 07 and before. You are the one who keeps making excuses for his performance since then.

But like you said its not TT's fault. Its managements fault, Slys fault, everyone else. So if its not his fault with lack of picks, or because of development, then simple enough he isn't the reason for Price or 07 draft. that is on development or on management for getting him the picks.

 

[Lebowski]

Its rich that you accuse me of being selective yet you keep pointing to 2007 or any of TT's good picks to prop him up. Lets say we are both being selective and we are both using hindsight to evalute TT. Thats the only way you can evaluate a scout is use hindsight and look at his picks and the players that he missed.

And if I am looking at his overall body of work its very simple to me. up until 07 he did a great job and drafted well and got lots of steals. Since then he has been average to putrid with 09-11 being putrid in all the players he missed out on. 12/13 is looking bleak outside of his gifted 3 OVA and Lek. 14/15/16 has no valuable pieces that any other team wants in a trade except for the 9th OVA pick.

So keep living off TT's past his 07 and before. I have always said TT did a great job with 07 and before. You are the one who keeps making excuses for his performance since then.

But like you said its not TT's fault. Its managements fault, Slys fault, everyone else. So if its not his fault with lack of picks, or because of development, then simple enough he isn't the reason for Price or 07 draft. that is on development or on management for getting him the picks.

Arguing with you is the closest thing to talking to a wall.

Fails to address any argument head on, ends up rehashing the same flawed argument from his previous posts over and over. Do it over 10 pages. Start over the next day.

Okay then. Agree to disagree.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Exactly. We need a new perspective away from his love of undersized forwards who are either top line or useless. And sad for us, most are useless.

As I recall, he picked Price, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Sergachev, McCrimmon, and Scherbak. The pick of Price was controversial but thank heavens he did,

 

[Captain Mountain]

1C debate heated again during the tdl. Gm's come and gm's go, but one man stays behind the scenes with he's drafting strategies. Timmins has been with Habs 15 yrs and still 1C is missing. He should be criticized more, failure is so obvious.

List of centers that can be considered 1st line centers Timmins was able to draft, but didn't:

-Getzlaf
-Carter
-Pavelski
-O'Reilly
-Krejci
-Bergeron
-Kuznetsov
-Kopitar (would have cost Price)

Outside of guys drafted in 2003 and 2004, you're looking at just O'Reilly and Kuznetsov. Which sucks, but it really goes to show how difficult it is to get a #1 C outside of the top 10. And guess what, the one center he got a pick there is the best damn center in that entire draft.

Its easy to look at his misses. But answer me this, what happens if he doesn't nail the Price pick? or the Pacioretty pick? or the Subban pick? Or the McDonaugh pick? or the Galchenyuk pick? or the Gallagher pick? You win some and you lose some, but the only way to assemble a really good collection of prospects is draft higher than the mid-20s this team has been under Bergevin and to have picks which they didn't have under Gauthier. I'd love if Timmins targeted more high-skill players and that the team either trusted their European scouts more or had better European scouts. But if you want to draft a top center, you probably can't be a playoff team.

...
But the '12 draft was when he finally had 3 top 51 picks since '07 and he blew 2 of them. Granted Collberg got us Vanek but to me even though it was at 33rd overall, he needs to get that pick right. Thrower has been injured more then healthy but still they could have done a better job there in hindsight. I still have high hopes for Hudon so that would at least turn it into a decent draft if he ends up doing what I think he can along with Galchenyuk.

...

Its also worth noting that it looks like the '12 draft class looks like its going to be one of the weaker ones in general.

Collberg, Thrower and Bozon don't look like great picks, but all 3 were considered excellent at the time. Obviously it would be better if we were talking about Vesey, Ghostbear and Parayko, but apart from Montreal in 2007, we really don't see an organization thoroughly dominate a bad draft year.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Our forward depth from the last couple of draft is probably the worst in the league.

I wouldn't have taken any of the available forwards over Sergachev but apparently you would.

 

[S Bah]

Really have to wonder which fans actually realize how many hats Timmins carried in the yrs. before Bergevin became GM. When one considers the short staffed scouting, not to mention Timmins was prospects link for development, when he was in that area(All over NA) it's no small wonder many fell by the wayside.(Or pickpocketed the Habs front office.) Our Pro Scout now being a ex-GM Rick Dudley, he being in the top 1% of talent evaluators in hockey.(This before McDonagh was fleeced before our eyes.) Want to hear more, there is a lot more involved personally, character or passion to become a career NHLer with talent & athleticism, isn't a guarantee of success.(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, comes to mind) One can look at Bobby Farnham the IceCaps winger, from a wealthy family, whose desire to become an NHLer is unquestioned. Having the required talent, IQ, vision etc. is hard to evaluate in itself & desire is only a part of the overall necessities in making a NHL career, believe Dat!!! I have spent many hours reading stories from scouts, that explain the innumerable problems in locating possible gems, that doesn't cover nights on the road to see players whom were injured that night before they arrive, etc.,etc., etc.

So before casting stones, actually spend some time in those shoes, then express your displeasure, if you're still so inclined. It takes a certain breed of person whose love for the game drives them to success.(Being a workaholic would help, but talent in evaluating isn't as simple as watching Connor McDavid and calling him #1.) Any person could merely watch his ability/passion/drive/character and see he's great, whose to say his real passion was rocket science not hockey, it was a pass time staying in shape. What a kick in the stones, for those scouts that didn't know his personality. Edmonton obviously didn't waste their #1 pick, other teams have though, many times there is no certainty, even amongst those first Top Ten Prospects, IMHO!!!...

 

[montreal]

Its also worth noting that it looks like the '12 draft class looks like its going to be one of the weaker ones in general.

Collberg, Thrower and Bozon don't look like great picks, but all 3 were considered excellent at the time. Obviously it would be better if we were talking about Vesey, Ghostbear and Parayko, but apart from Montreal in 2007, we really don't see an organization thoroughly dominate a bad draft year.

it's a fair point, I tend not to look at the rest of the draft outside the Hab picks but we all know that there are going to be some crappy years from time to time. I still remember how much hype there was at HF for that 2012 draft for the Habs. I thought then it might be a problem since so many seemed to actually like what the Habs did.

I was stoked for the Collberg pick, the way Timmins made it sound I thought we got a real steal and he shined in the WJC's but I know that when you are picking 18 year olds, some are just going to peak around that age. Too bad cause that one would have been huge for us had he turned into a decent top 6 winger.

One things for sure, they need to find some new scouts in Sweden.

Our picks going back to the '90's out of Sweden,

Peter Strom ('94)
Niklas Anger ('95)
Kim Staal ('96, a Dane but played in Sweden)
Christopher Heino-Lindberg ('03)
Nichlas Torp ('07)
John Westin ('10)
Magnus Nygren ('11)
Sebastian Collberg, Erik Nystrom ('12)
Jacob De La Rose ('13)
Lukas Vejdemo ('15)
Arvid Henrikson ('16)

only 1 player from that list has appeared in an NHL game, although if not injured Nygren would have been called up. That's just terrible luck from one of the top 4 hockey nations.

 

[Captain Mountain]

it's a fair point, I tend not to look at the rest of the draft outside the Hab picks but we all know that there are going to be some crappy years from time to time. I still remember how much hype there was at HF for that 2012 draft for the Habs. I thought then it might be a problem since so many seemed to actually like what the Habs did.

I was stoked for the Collberg pick, the way Timmins made it sound I thought we got a real steal and he shined in the WJC's but I know that when you are picking 18 year olds, some are just going to peak around that age. Too bad cause that one would have been huge for us had he turned into a decent top 6 winger.

One things for sure, they need to find some new scouts in Sweden.

Our picks going back to the '90's out of Sweden,

Peter Strom ('94)
Niklas Anger ('95)
Kim Staal ('96, a Dane but played in Sweden)
Christopher Heino-Lindberg ('03)
Nichlas Torp ('07)
John Westin ('10)
Magnus Nygren ('11)
Sebastian Collberg, Erik Nystrom ('12)
Jacob De La Rose ('13)
Lukas Vejdemo ('15)
Arvid Henrikson ('16)

only 1 player from that list has appeared in an NHL game, although if not injured Nygren would have been called up. That's just terrible luck from one of the top 4 hockey nations.

They've also been pretty bad out of Russia, which used to be an organizational strength.

 

[ginomini]

...

But the '12 draft was when he finally had 3 top 51 picks since '07 and he blew 2 of them. Granted Collberg got us Vanek but to me even though it was at 33rd overall, he needs to get that pick right. Thrower has been injured more then healthy but still they could have done a better job there in hindsight. I still have high hopes for Hudon so that would at least turn it into a decent draft if he ends up doing what I think he can along with Galchenyuk.

...

If we look however at what we could have gotten instead of those picks in the 2nd round, it doesn't look really good either.

I mean Timmins could have picked pretty much any of the second round players and it wouldn't have looked really better.

Damon Severson is probably the best, then there is Chris Tierney, Jake McCabe, Jordan Martinook, Colton Sissons and Phil di Guisseppe.

Out of this group, only Seversson and McCabe would really change something on the team.

You can't really blame the guy when 2 players out of 30 are legit.


Gost, Parayko and Slavin and Hutton where found in the later rounds, but can we really blame a scout for not hitting a late round home run each year ?

Edit : and he might actually have gotten one with Hudon!

 

[Team_Spirit]

Really have to wonder which fans actually realize how many hats Timmins carried in the yrs. before Bergevin became GM. When one considers the short staffed scouting, not to mention Timmins was prospects link for development, when he was in that area(All over NA) it's no small wonder many fell by the wayside.(Or pickpocketed the Habs front office.) Our Pro Scout now being a ex-GM Rick Dudley, he being in the top 1% of talent evaluators in hockey.(This before McDonagh was fleeced before our eyes.) Want to hear more, there is a lot more involved personally, character or passion to become a career NHLer with talent & athleticism, isn't a guarantee of success.(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, comes to mind) One can look at Bobby Farnham the IceCaps winger, from a wealthy family, whose desire to become an NHLer is unquestioned. Having the required talent, IQ, vision etc. is hard to evaluate in itself & desire is only a part of the overall necessities in making a NHL career, believe Dat!!! I have spent many hours reading stories from scouts, that explain the innumerable problems in locating possible gems, that doesn't cover nights on the road to see players whom were injured that night before they arrive, etc.,etc., etc.

So before casting stones, actually spend some time in those shoes, then express your displeasure, if you're still so inclined. It takes a certain breed of person whose love for the game drives them to success.(Being a workaholic would help, but talent in evaluating isn't as simple as watching Connor McDavid and calling him #1.) Any person could merely watch his ability/passion/drive/character and see he's great, whose to say his real passion was rocket science not hockey, it was a pass time staying in shape. What a kick in the stones, for those scouts that didn't know his personality. Edmonton obviously didn't waste their #1 pick, other teams have though, many times there is no certainty, even amongst those first Top Ten Prospects, IMHO!!!...

good post

sadly he's MB next fall guy, imo.