Trevor Timmins Part II

[scrubadam]

List of centers that can be considered 1st line centers Timmins was able to draft, but didn't:

-Getzlaf
-Carter
-Pavelski
-O'Reilly
-Krejci
-Bergeron
-Kuznetsov
-Kopitar (would have cost Price)

Outside of guys drafted in 2003 and 2004, you're looking at just O'Reilly and Kuznetsov. Which sucks, but it really goes to show how difficult it is to get a #1 C outside of the top 10. And guess what, the one center he got a pick there is the best damn center in that entire draft.

Its easy to look at his misses. But answer me this, what happens if he doesn't nail the Price pick? or the Pacioretty pick? or the Subban pick? Or the McDonaugh pick? or the Galchenyuk pick? or the Gallagher pick? You win some and you lose some, but the only way to assemble a really good collection of prospects is draft higher than the mid-20s this team has been under Bergevin and to have picks which they didn't have under Gauthier. I'd love if Timmins targeted more high-skill players and that the team either trusted their European scouts more or had better European scouts. But if you want to draft a top center, you probably can't be a playoff team.

But why should he get credit for all the ones he hits on if the ones he misses on its oh well not his fault? Isn't it on management for getting him those picks just like its on them for lack of picks? Or development that made them great just like its Sly's fault for the busts?

And I have never not given credit for his great picks. I keep saying he did a great job up till 2007. Everyone who argues with me cannot go past 2007 to say TT has been the best, its always based on what he did before 2007.

I listed 5 players that TT missed out on between 08-11 that could of been big pieces to the franchise. Sorry but someone who is one of the "best" should be able to snag 2 or 3 or 4 of those guys not pick the crappy busts that set the franchise back. How come we are weak in the top 6 and on D? How come the team outside of Serge don't have any prospects attracting attention? Is it not the guy who runs the draft that should have some responsibility in that?

So again 03-07 TT was great. 08-11 TT was bad. 12-today unknown but leaning towards bad since all we have is 3OVA gifted to him and Lek. No one was giving us a top 6 for Julsen or Scherback and Mac is looking more and more like a 4th liner.

Dont worry in 2020 we will have the same discussion pointing and talking about giving TT 5 more years to evaluate his 2018/19/20 drafts that will produce studs galore I am sure.

 

[Whitesnake]

One things for sure, they need to find some new scouts in Sweden.

They've also been pretty bad out of Russia, which used to be an organizational strength.

How about the Q? How about the US? In which league don't we need new scouts? And when the answer is every league....who is the common denominator? Who is in charge of them all? Who can go to Bergevin and tell him that we need new guys? Timmins has really no say on anything?

 

[scrubadam]

Its also worth noting that it looks like the '12 draft class looks like its going to be one of the weaker ones in general.

Collberg, Thrower and Bozon don't look like great picks, but all 3 were considered excellent at the time. Obviously it would be better if we were talking about Vesey, Ghostbear and Parayko, but apart from Montreal in 2007, we really don't see an organization thoroughly dominate a bad draft year.

but shouldn't the guy who is "the best" be able to snag one of those guys rather than pick the 3 busts?

Scouts will have misses but TT's misses since 07 are piling sky high compared to his hits.

 

[Whitesnake]

But why should he get credit for all the ones he hits on if the ones he misses on its oh well not his fault? Isn't it on management for getting him those picks just like its on them for lack of picks? Or development that made them great just like its Sly's fault for the busts?

Reading some people in here, there's surely enough reasons to be jealous of Timmins. It's the perfect job! Kudos for the great picks! Not his fault for the bad ones! Which other job in the entire universe of jobs can you be celebrated for your best moves and excuses for your worst ones? And people wonder why we're jealous???

 

[Whitesnake]

And the freakin development argument....people need to be freakin logic here. You cannot put almost the entire blame in the development of players and NOT want Bergevin out. It has to go together. IF you are saying that we struggle 'cause of bad development. 'Cause who stands by the coach in the AHL and the whole development team? Who hired most of those guys from Ramage to Lapointe to whoever? IF that's the sole and only excuse, and developing kids is crucial to a team success, you NEED to want Bergevin OUT.

 

[scrubadam]

Reading some people in here, there's surely enough reasons to be jealous of Timmins. It's the perfect job! Kudos for the great picks! Not his fault for the bad ones! Which other job in the entire universe of jobs can you be celebrated for your best moves and excuses for your worst ones? And people wonder why we're jealous???

Yes and make sure that your best performance was 10 years ago and continue to live off of that.

I think we both agree TT did a very good job till 07 but since then he has not come through as one of "the best". Blame it on picks, the GM or whoever end of the day he isn't delivering results.

Again reading posts on here its as if people don't realize that we know TT had a great draft in 07, or got Price. We get it. How about what he did since then? How come no one is willing to take any of the players her drafted the last 3 years except for Serge? Shouldn't they be able to snag a top 6 for the habs if the "best" is picking them and getting steals? Can't blame Sly for that since he hasn't touched those guys yet.

MB is willing to live with TT but odds are that will be the next GM's problem because the mistakes TT makes today will hurt the team in 4 or 5 years. We are seeing that with 08-11. In 2022 fans will be wondering how come we don't have top 6 or top 4 from the draft and we can point to 12-16 and all the busts caused by MB trading picks and SLY LOL.

 

[montreal]

They've also been pretty bad out of Russia, which used to be an organizational strength.

depends on what you definition of pretty bad is.

I'll start in the '90's,

Konstantin Sidulov ('97)
Andrei Markov, Andrei Kruchinin ('98)
Alexander Buturlin, Vadim Tarasov ('99)
Vadim Tarasov ('01)
Konstantin Korneyev ('02)
Andrei Kostitsyn ('03)
Alexei Emelin, Mikhail Grabovski ('04)
Sergei Kostitsyn ('05, if you count Belarus league)
Pavel Valentenko ('06)
Maxim Trunev ('08)
Alexander Avtsin ('09)


some bad picks but nothing close to as bad as Sweden. Markov alone makes all the difference. Add in Emelin, some decent years from Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, Grabo. Trunev is finally breaking out, not that I expect him to come over. Would have liked to see Korneyev and Tarasov come over.

 

[montreal]

Again reading posts on here its as if people don't realize that we know TT had a great draft in 07, or got Price. We get it. How about what he did since then? How come no one is willing to take any of the players her drafted the last 3 years except for Serge? Shouldn't they be able to snag a top 6 for the habs if the "best" is picking them and getting steals? Can't blame Sly for that since he hasn't touched those guys yet.

Ghetto was just traded, Bozon earlier in the year, Collberg got us Vanek. Do you really think teams wouldn't want Juulsen, McCarron, Lehkonen, Scherbak? Management has yet to trade a top prospect or a 1st round pick since taking over for Gainey/Goat.

Here's the list of Timmins picks that have been traded at one point,

Ghetto, Bozon, Collberg, Tinordi, Leblanc, Kristo, Quailer, McDonagh, Subban, Ben Maxwell, Ryan White, Mathieu Carle, Latendresse, Matt D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Grabo, Mark Streit, Andrei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan O'Byrne, Mark Flood, Halak.

Plus the undrafted FA's or prospects acquired in trade after the draft, Condon, Pateryn, Francis Lemieux, Brock Trotter, Philippe Lefebvre, Christian Thomas, Jack Nevins

 

[scrubadam]

Ghetto was just traded, Bozon earlier in the year, Collberg got us Vanek. Do you really think teams wouldn't want Juulsen, McCarron, Lehkonen, Scherbak? Management has yet to trade a top prospect or a 1st round pick since taking over for Gainey/Goat.

Here's the list of Timmins picks that have been traded at one point,

Ghetto, Bozon, Collberg, Tinordi, Leblanc, Kristo, Quailer, McDonagh, Subban, Ben Maxwell, Ryan White, Mathieu Carle, Latendresse, Matt D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Grabo, Mark Streit, Andrei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan O'Byrne, Mark Flood, Halak.

Plus the undrafted FA's or prospects acquired in trade after the draft, Condon, Pateryn, Francis Lemieux, Brock Trotter, Philippe Lefebvre, Christian Thomas, Jack Nevins

Ghetto was traded for a bottom guy who is waiver wire material. Ghetto was not picked up on waivers twice. Collberg ill give you he helped snag Vanek, but he also busted and amounted to nothing and that was before Sly touched him. So if Snow didn't give us Vanek we would be talking about another TT bust.

I think its 50/50 as far as moving our players. MB is pretty stingy and doesn't like to move his prospects, but I think OTOH if Duchene or GL could be had for a Julsen or Scherbak that MB would probably do it.

You just don't hear anyone talk about our picks or how highly valued they are. Shouldn't a guy like Julsen be that futur top 4 D that Sakic wants? 1 year older than Serge meaning closer to the NHL. No where did we hear any rumours about Julsen in play.

But my point about the prospects is more about the development vs drafting debate. Even players that don't get to Sly are still not highly coveted and still bust.

most of the players you listed were traded for other nothing players. The only ones I would say brought value back would be McD and PK. Since I don't remember every trade maybe some of those guys brought back a named player but I don't think so. And how many of those guys listed were drafted 08 and after?

 

[montreal]

Ghetto was traded for a bottom guy who is waiver wire material. Ghetto was not picked up on waivers twice. Collberg ill give you he helped snag Vanek, but he also busted and amounted to nothing and that was before Sly touched him. So if Snow didn't give us Vanek we would be talking about another TT bust.

I think its 50/50 as far as moving our players. MB is pretty stingy and doesn't like to move his prospects, but I think OTOH if Duchene or GL could be had for a Julsen or Scherbak that MB would probably do it.

You just don't hear anyone talk about our picks or how highly valued they are. Shouldn't a guy like Julsen be that futur top 4 D that Sakic wants? 1 year older than Serge meaning closer to the NHL. No where did we hear any rumours about Julsen in play.

But my point about the prospects is more about the development vs drafting debate. Even players that don't get to Sly are still not highly coveted and still bust.

most of the players you listed were traded for other nothing players. The only ones I would say brought value back would be McD and PK. Since I don't remember every trade maybe some of those guys brought back a named player but I don't think so. And how many of those guys listed were drafted 08 and after?

well you did say "How come no one is willing to take any of the players he drafted", to which I gave a list showing that more then a few of his picks had teams willing to take said player.

as for players that don't play for Lefebvre and bust, well look at the % of draft picks that bust. There's a reason why it's so high outside the top 10/20. That said if you were to watch every AHL game I bet you would at least be wondering what the hell he's doing at times. Makes some very strange decisions. Hopefully he's gone this summer and the Habs can improve on the development side, although not calling up prospects too soon would also be a big step in the right direction imo.

And no, Juulsen is not what Sakic wants. If you are trading MD, it should be for a D prospect with top pairing upside. Juulsen is a safe bet to play in the NHL but doesn't come close to the upside that Sergachev has. Clearly from the sounds of it, Sakic doesn't want to sell low and rightly so as it will help their rebuild turnaround quicker if they can get top assets. If I'm the Habs, no way do I give up Sergachev for MD, but Juuslen would be much eaiser to move on from. It's very difficult to get top pairing defensemen, so we are lucky to have Sergachev and have to hope he's able to live up to the hype.

 

[scrubadam]

well you did say "How come no one is willing to take any of the players he drafted", to which I gave a list showing that more then a few of his picks had teams willing to take said player.

I meant it more for our recent drafts that had not been touch by our development in regards to the development vs drafting debate. Didn't seem like anything outside of Serge was getting the habs anything of note yesterday (Ghetto got us Martinsens but he aint no top 6)

as for players that don't play for Lefebvre and bust, well look at the % of draft picks that bust. There's a reason why it's so high outside the top 10/20. That said if you were to watch every AHL game I bet you would at least be wondering what the hell he's doing at times. Makes some very strange decisions. Hopefully he's gone this summer and the Habs can improve on the development side, although not calling up prospects too soon would also be a big step in the right direction imo.

I don't watch AHL much and I will defer in regards to Sly's coaching, but some of the players down there have done decent under him. Guys like Ghetto and Hudon have had good AHL seasons. Even his goalies as well. So yes his record sucks but his players have some decent perfromances, but they can't translate that to the NHL. So is that on them not being developed for the next level, or the player selected just doesn't have a higher ceiling?

And no, Juulsen is not what Sakic wants. If you are trading MD, it should be for a D prospect with top pairing upside. Juulsen is a safe bet to play in the NHL but doesn't come close to the upside that Sergachev has. Clearly from the sounds of it, Sakic doesn't want to sell low and rightly so as it will help their rebuild turnaround quicker if they can get top assets. If I'm the Habs, no way do I give up Sergachev for MD, but Juuslen would be much eaiser to move on from. It's very difficult to get top pairing defensemen, so we are lucky to have Sergachev and have to hope he's able to live up to the hype.

Im with you on this. If I am Sakic I want the guy taken 9th OVA that almost made the NHL this year. It seems like though nothing else in cupboards was tempting JS or any other GM's. Is that on TT or MB for not wanting to give. I guess we can't know since we aren't privy but I think most people would say that the habs don't have an amazing blue chip prospect pool.

As far as tradeing Serge I agree with not moving him because its very rare that the habs will have a top 10 pick. It happens about once every 5 years. So why waste that asset that you had to suffer for the minute you get it? Thats why I understand why MB doesn't want to trade Serge. That would make last season a double waste. Bottom 10 finish and no draft pick! whats the point of tanking then.

 

[Chili]

I noticed that Shane Churla is listed as the 'Director of Amateur Scouting' and Trevor Timmins as 'VP Player Personnel'.

Last season's listing had Trevor Timmins as the Director.

What that means, I don't know but I do question how much scouting Timmins himself does, if any.

 

[calder candidate]

What are Shane Churla credential because if I want to move Timmins I'm not sure that Churla is the guy we want to replace him with...

 

[Habs100]

Timmins is the guy who drafted PK Subban, the guy who never should have been traded and should have been a cornerstone of this franchise for the next decade.

Drafting a player like that doesn't happen often. Yet he drafted 4 of them in 3 years between 2005 and 2007

 

[Deluded Puck]

Bergevin hired his buddies to develop the prospects, it's been 5 years and we've seen the effect of this. The damage this nepotism will do to the CH going forward can't be underestimated.

 

[Whitesnake]

Timmins is the guy who drafted PK Subban, the guy who never should have been traded and should have been a cornerstone of this franchise for the next decade.

Drafting a player like that doesn't happen often. Yet he drafted 4 of them in 3 years between 2005 and 2007

Yep. He was awesome back then. Seems that we can be satisfied with that...not sure why we kept any draft picks after that. Seems that this was enough and that even if he struck out on EVERY SINGLE one of the picks after that....he'd STILL be the one who drafted Price, McDo, Subban and Patch.

 

[Jeffrey]

Could Shipashev be a good option as #1 centerman?

I think he is worth a shot.

 

[1909]

Yep. He was awesome back then. Seems that we can be satisfied with that...not sure why we kept any draft picks after that. Seems that this was enough and that even if he struck out on EVERY SINGLE one of the picks after that....he'd STILL be the one who drafted Price, McDo, Subban and Patch.

he is also the one who drafted Fischer, Leblanc, Tinordi, McCarron, Urquhart, Crisp....

 

[jfm133]

The cherry picking game is still on here. So easy to say who should have been picked 5 years or more after the draft. Compare with other teams overall work, you will see Timmins given the few high picks he got did a great job for us.

 

[deandebean]

I don't know of ANY business model that works when you have a less than 10% success rate. Heads need to roll.

 

[Miller Time]

kinda funny how some of the biggest critics of Timmins, are also the biggest defenders of MB.... and vice versa.



the one thing I'd ask the critics, is how they don't make the clear and direct connection from the head of scouting to the GM?

Ultimately, the buck stops at the GM. So even if one thinks Timmins is a problem, ultimately the criticism for his drafts lands at the feet of his boss, who has kept him in place through 5 drafts (and had a dozen previous drafts as a body of work to also evaluate).



on the flip side, that Timmins success rate seems to have taken a bit of a downward hit in recent years can and should call into question the influence of the new management and development group running the show in that time.

if Molson makes the mistake of letting Timmins go (or letting MB fire him) before he moves MB, that would be a huge blunder imo.

 

[Toene]

he is also the one who drafted Fischer, Leblanc, Tinordi, McCarron, Urquhart, Crisp....

The 4 pieces listed are pretty much all you need to build around. If you add Galchenyuk and Gallagher to the bunch, you realize Bergevin had everything to turn things around and make us a contender. But because the team overachieved in his first year, he went out and picked up Armstrong, Briere, Murray, etc. to try and go deep in the POs. All this while bridging Subban instead of locking him up as soon as he could, so he could save cap for his acquisitions. But the team wasnt built deep enough and the Rangers beat us fair and square. Honestly they were flying out there I dont think that we win even with Price.

But yeah the point is : you add one or two top-5/top-10 pick talents during the last 5 years to that core and you have all the skill you need. Just a Nylander would do so much for our low offense. But Bergevin tried to go for it and it burned him. Sure Timmins could do better but look at all the other top teams. Considering where we drafted throughout the years (late) Id say it's not that bad. Some drafts killed us like 2006 and 2008, it's true, but the last few years I like what Timmins picks up. Last draft for example I'm pretty excited. Sergachev, Bitten and Mete could be a very good draft in a couple years.

Another thing bugs me about Bergevin's regime... if the first years were transition years, then why the **** didnt we play the hell out of our youngsters? How can a guy like Hudon have less than 10 games 5 years after the draft and after subsequent good years in the A? Why is this only AG's second year at C? Why is McCarron never tried elsewhere than on the 4th line? This organization, top to bottom, has no clue how to ease in youngsters.

The only guys who somewhat panned out from the last 5 years are Galchenyuk and Lehkonen... both werent developed by Sly. Funny coincidence. I think they can him this summer with the team moving to Laval. Get some young up and coming minds from the Q. IDK enough about the LHJMQ coaches to know who could do it.

 

[scrubadam]

kinda funny how some of the biggest critics of Timmins, are also the biggest defenders of MB.... and vice versa.



the one thing I'd ask the critics, is how they don't make the clear and direct connection from the head of scouting to the GM?

Ultimately, the buck stops at the GM. So even if one thinks Timmins is a problem, ultimately the criticism for his drafts lands at the feet of his boss, who has kept him in place through 5 drafts (and had a dozen previous drafts as a body of work to also evaluate).



on the flip side, that Timmins success rate seems to have taken a bit of a downward hit in recent years can and should call into question the influence of the new management and development group running the show in that time.

if Molson makes the mistake of letting Timmins go (or letting MB fire him) before he moves MB, that would be a huge blunder imo.

So then I guess we can say the real brains behind the operation was Gainey ? Because right around Gainey left is when the drafting hit the skids during the Gauthier and MB era. The Gauthier era was the real low point from 09-11.

Maybe we can get Gainey back because TT can't do the job without anyone else.

 

[calder candidate]

There a lot of blame to go around we had a lot of questionable pick the worst pick that come to mind would be Connor Crisp, there just no way to defend that pick... We maybe have not drafted the best player but no player are really been improving so there has to be a issues with development...
There been a few year with not much to show for 2008 (0), 2009 (0), 2010 (1), 2011 (1), 2012 (2), 2013 (4*) that a could be 8 NHL player with only 2 being impact player in 6 years but we also gave 6 of the our top 3 pick during that spand so it hard to find impact player with late picks.

There no limit the the amount of money we can't spend on scouting so we should fire Timmins but bring more people has long has they are better. Mtl should be hireing everyone and leave the scarp to other team before Toronto does...

 

[Brainiac]

So again 03-07 TT was great. 08-11 TT was bad. 12-today unknown but leaning towards bad since all we have is 3OVA gifted to him and Lek. No one was giving us a top 6 for Julsen or Scherback and Mac is looking more and more like a 4th liner.

Serious question: when did Mac looked like something more than a 4th liner? I never saw it.