Trevor Timmins Part II

[DAChampion]

Exactly. Plus, at that time we had to get bigger, because of the way the game was being played. I'm not sure Tinordi doesn't make the NHL if the game was still being played as it was then.

Tinordi was an effective NHL player in 2013.

He then spent more time with Lefebvre and suffered multiple injuries.

 

[Whitesnake]

I wrote what I meant.

It's too early to judge the Bergevin-era Timmins drafts.

A year ago Lehkonen was mostly a joke around here.

And I'll answer what I think. Number of games played often means nothing. Especially in what you call yourself way too early to judge drafts. If it's too early to judge for Timmins, it's too early to judge for everybody else. Lehknonen was not a joke as he was doing really well in the SHL. What needed to be known was how he'd adapt to the NHL. And he answered it. But a joke he wasn't.

And while some picks of the Bergevin era are too early to judge, I'm pretty sure you still can judge a few picks in there anyway.

Tinordi was an effective NHL player in 2013.

He then spent more time with Lefebvre and suffered multiple injuries.

If he was, and I don't remember if "effective" was really the word we have to look for, you can add a LOT of guys who were "effective" in 20-30 games of their first year and then never were after that. There are quite a few players in any drafts that have the kind of NHL career that Tinordi had from 30 to 100 games in their resume to then drop into obliveon. In 2010 alone, you had McIllrath, Gormely, Forbort in the 1st round that had the same kind of NHL career.

While spending time with Lefebvre isn't ideal as this guy should be out of a job like 3 years ago, it still didn't stop Beaulieu from being a permanent player in the NHL. If you are good enough, chances are you will become a NHL player. Might take a longer time because of incompetent development but you'll eventually get there. Tinordi just stopped progressing. Though everybody knew that to make it in the NHL, while he had the size, he needed some huge improvement in his footspped and in his puck skills, something he wasn't able to improve.

 

[Adam Michaels]

If he was, and I don't remember if "effective" was really the word we have to look for, you can add a LOT of guys who were "effective" in 20-30 games of their first year and then never were after that. There are quite a few players in any drafts that have the kind of NHL career that Tinordi had from 30 to 100 games in their resume to then drop into obliveon. In 2010 alone, you had McIllrath, Gormely, Forbort in the 1st round that had the same kind of NHL career.

While spending time with Lefebvre isn't ideal as this guy should be out of a job like 3 years ago, it still didn't stop Beaulieu from being a permanent player in the NHL. If you are good enough, chances are you will become a NHL player. Might take a longer time because of incompetent development but you'll eventually get there. Tinordi just stopped progressing. Though everybody knew that to make it in the NHL, while he had the size, he needed some huge improvement in his footspped and in his puck skills, something he wasn't able to improve.

I believe that part of the bigger issue is on Tinordi's end. But that's not to absolve Therrien's and Lefebvre's handling of him. I also attribute the fact Tinordi didn't pan out is that he was drafted just before the game began to shift into more of a speed game. So by the time Tinordi was ready to jump into the pro game, his style of play was being phased out.

 

[Whitesnake]

I believe that part of the bigger issue is on Tinordi's end. But that's not to absolve Therrien's and Lefebvre's handling of him. I also attribute the fact Tinordi didn't pan out is that he was drafted just before the game began to shift into more of a speed game. So by the time Tinordi was ready to jump into the pro game, his style of play was being phased out.

There are also the part that nobody can predict which is the personal development of a player. AT one point, no matter who coaches you, no matter who drafts you, once you've reached your ceiling, you just did. So while nobody should be faulted for this....you still have to do it as it's impossible at one point to know if a player busted because he was a bad pick to begin with, because he reached his ceiling, because he was badly developed and so on....

 

[jfm133]

How do you expect us to have a great pool of non pros forwards prospects when we spent our last two first round picks on Dmen? On top of it we had no second round picks in the last three years. So Vejdemo and Bitten were chosen in the third round.

That being said I read that the Habs are one of the teams interested in signing free agent overager Tyler Boland from Rimouski Océanic. He is a late bloomer leading the Q in scoring this year coming out of nowhere. His bithdate is 1996-09-12, so if born 4 days later he would still be draft eligible. Very young overager dominating offensively on a weak team. Could be some kind of Ondrej Palat.

 

[WeThreeKings]

How do you expect us to have a great pool of non pros forwards prospects when we spent our last two first round picks on Dmen? On top of it we had no second round picks in the last three years. So Vejdemo and Bitten were chosen in the third round.

That being said I read that the Habs are one of the teams interested in signing free agent overager Tyler Boland from Rimouski Océanic. He is a late bloomer leading the Q in scoring this year coming out of nowhere. His bithdate is 1996-09-12, so if born 4 days later he would still be draft eligible. Very young overager dominating offensively on a weak team. Could be some kind of Ondrej Palat.

Maybe by not trading 2 2nd round picks for a POS like Shaw.

 

[Toene]

Maybe by not trading 2 2nd round picks for a POS like Shaw.

I still wouldve drafted a dman in Girard with one of those picks, (the second one). With the other, Debrincat was still available and Raddysh went at the end of the round. But we needed grit and character I suppose... sigh...

 

[Deluded Puck]

I still wouldve drafted a dman in Girard with one of those picks, (the second one). With the other, Debrincat was still available and Raddysh went at the end of the round. But we needed grit and character I suppose... sigh...

Doesn't matter. The AHL coaching is even worse, all the prospects in the past 5 years have come along slower than expected. That's not on Timmins and the scouts.

 

[Belial]

Doesn't matter. The AHL coaching is even worse, all the prospects in the past 5 years have come along slower than expected. That's not on Timmins and the scouts.

Who are you talking about in particular? Who is that blue chip prospect that was supposed to be a stud already?

 

[Andrei79]

Who are you talking about in particular? Who is that blue chip prospect that was supposed to be a stud already?

And which of the players who went through the AHL do you feel improved a weakness he had ? 1 guy who you feel had a positive impact from his time there.

Example: Ryder coming into his own under Julien with the Bulldogs.

 

[Belial]

And which of the players who went through the AHL do you feel improved a weakness he had ? 1 guy who you feel had a positive impact from his time there.

Example: Ryder coming into his own under Julien with the Bulldogs.

This is the whole problem, my friend, I don't think the drafted kids are any good, to begin with...

 

[Habs]

He's average at best, all the scouts have a few homeruns like TT, but he lags far behind in other rounds and areas. He has a vision of small players, because he is a smurf himself.

 

[Gomez91]

And I'll answer what I think. Number of games played often means nothing. Especially in what you call yourself way too early to judge drafts. If it's too early to judge for Timmins, it's too early to judge for everybody else. Lehknonen was not a joke as he was doing really well in the SHL. What needed to be known was how he'd adapt to the NHL. And he answered it. But a joke he wasn't.

And while some picks of the Bergevin era are too early to judge, I'm pretty sure you still can judge a few picks in there anyway.



If he was, and I don't remember if "effective" was really the word we have to look for, you can add a LOT of guys who were "effective" in 20-30 games of their first year and then never were after that. There are quite a few players in any drafts that have the kind of NHL career that Tinordi had from 30 to 100 games in their resume to then drop into obliveon. In 2010 alone, you had McIllrath, Gormely, Forbort in the 1st round that had the same kind of NHL career.

While spending time with Lefebvre isn't ideal as this guy should be out of a job like 3 years ago, it still didn't stop Beaulieu from being a permanent player in the NHL. If you are good enough, chances are you will become a NHL player. Might take a longer time because of incompetent development but you'll eventually get there. Tinordi just stopped progressing. Though everybody knew that to make it in the NHL, while he had the size, he needed some huge improvement in his footspped and in his puck skills, something he wasn't able to improve.

How did answer it by being a bust not scoring in how many games? Lehknonen like several of Montreal's forwards are small don't use their speed but most shoot from the perimeter did I miss something? Against the Islanders more then half the games played most of Montreal's forwards continually shoot from the perimeter for two periods and are afraid to go to the net. SHL will never be compared to the NHL and Timmins still drafts weak overall.

Blaming the coach Lefebvre for Beaulieu and Tinordi's lack of hockey sense has become the easy way to address most these rookies probables but Gallant was Beauilieu's assistant coach as well talent for both of these players was never there (I watched Tinordi in London never was impressed with him in the OHL)he gave me the impression his father had NHL talent so he could have the same without effort.

 

[Andrei79]

This is the whole problem, my friend, I don't think the drafted kids are any good, to begin with...

What a cop out.

Was Ryder, an ECHL bound player, any good ?

Julien, Jarvis, Lever, Boucher, they all developped players who exceeded expectations at some point.

I'm wasn't even talking about producing significant NHL players either, I'm talking simply improving a weakness a player had during his time in juniors. That's what AHL coaching is for by the way.

 

[Belial]

What a cop out.

Was Ryder, an ECHL bound player, any good ?

Julien, Jarvis, Lever, Boucher, they all developped players who exceeded expectations at some point.

I'm wasn't even talking about producing significant NHL players either, I'm talking simply improving a weakness a player had during his time in juniors. That's what AHL coaching is for by the way.

Andrighetto is exceeding expectations, I don't think people thought Hudon will be as good as he has been in the AHL.

BigMac skates better, Scherbak's defensive game improved...

 

[Gomez91]

Andrighetto is exceeding expectations, I don't think people thought Hudon will be as good as he has been in the AHL.

BigMac skates better, Scherbak's defensive game improved...

Andrighetto is so invisible I didn't even realize he still plays for Montreal?

 

[Gomez91]

Just to stay on topic Trevor Timmins how many years has Montreal lacked scoring yet he has not drafted to help that issue out?

 

[Skip Bayless]

He's average at best, all the scouts have a few homeruns like TT, but he lags far behind in other rounds and areas. He has a vision of small players, because he is a smurf himself.

 

[montreal]

Just to stay on topic Trevor Timmins how many years has Montreal lacked scoring yet he has not drafted to help that issue out?

you have to draft BPA, take Sergachev should they have drafted a forward because we need scoring help now? Plus it's not like he hasn't gotten us forwards that can score. Galchenyuk ('12), Gallagher ('10), Pac ('07), Lehkonen ('13). Scherbak has the skill just needs to round out his game, Hudon is having a big year again in the AHL, Reway was leading the Czech league in scoring at 21, Bitten could be something, Jake Evans is having a breakout year. Throw in some defensive or big forwards, DLR, McCarron, Nattinen, Crisp, Conboy, etc.., some poor picks Leblanc, Collberg, Maxwell, Kristo, etc...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Who are you talking about in particular? Who is that blue chip prospect that was supposed to be a stud already?

how about a 4th liner or a 6th D ?

 

[Treb]

Andrighetto is exceeding expectations, I don't think people thought Hudon will be as good as he has been in the AHL.

BigMac skates better, Scherbak's defensive game improved...

I think you are mistaking normal development curve and exceeding expectations.

 

[Gomez91]

you have to draft BPA, take Sergachev should they have drafted a forward because we need scoring help now? Plus it's not like he hasn't gotten us forwards that can score. Galchenyuk ('12), Gallagher ('10), Pac ('07), Lehkonen ('13). Scherbak has the skill just needs to round out his game, Hudon is having a big year again in the AHL, Reway was leading the Czech league in scoring at 21, Bitten could be something, Jake Evans is having a breakout year. Throw in some defensive or big forwards, DLR, McCarron, Nattinen, Crisp, Conboy, etc.., some poor picks Leblanc, Collberg, Maxwell, Kristo, etc...

The only 2 players that help this team the rest fill a position only

 

[Habs100]

Just to stay on topic Trevor Timmins how many years has Montreal lacked scoring yet he has not drafted to help that issue out?

Yet it was Bergevin who ordered him to draft a dman the year we drafted Juulsen.


Hopefully Bergevin has learned his lesson and will focus on acquiring talented attackers.

 

[montreal]

The only 2 players that help this team the rest fill a position only

Gallagher has 174 pts in the NHL to date. He's having a terrible year but it doesn't discount the fact that he's been a very good pick by Timmins.

Lehkonen is on pace for 25 pts, not terrible for a 3rd liner rookie.

 

[yianik]

BPA is obviously subjective but I think there are still criteria teams set which puts a bias on what BPA means. For example, when Houle was GM a common problem with players we selected was they could not skate well and so we had many bust for that reason. Though many were quite talented, or could at least produce. At the same time, they tended to be big guys. So there must have been a philosophy that you draft big guys and hope skating will come.

There have been times we have selected guys and they were clearly touted as shut down guys, like a Tinordi, big, mean shut down guy we have needed for years.. blah blah. Or great two way player with heart, captain material...blah blah.

For BPA I think we need criteria to bias it to skating and pure talent. To me these are top criteria. Then you can have everything else, including a bit of size ( I know small guys can do well in the NHL right now, but would help right now if we weren't so small at forward ).

Bottom line to me is shoot for skaters that have some chance at being top 6 forwards or top 4 D with every pick. Picking a guy because he could be a great two way third liner etc is a waste of a pick.