Trevor Timmins Part II

[Wats]

Bergevin and Timmins just not good team IMO. Development in general has been easily one of worst in division.

Interesting that when Gainey/Gauthier were GM, the Habs were one of the best with Timmins. The moment Bergevin came in and added his guys to staff, none of the prospects in AHL were developing. Gallagher luckily only spent a couple months there due to lockout. 2009 picks were 21 when Begervin took over, anyone who touched AHL busted outside Beaulieu (who's a #5-6D). Coincidence? Who knows, scary thing is Bergevin sees no issues.

Seems like the only way is to get players who can bypass pro development league.

 

[Sorinth]

I think the top scout should be getting players whichever round that can jump to the NHL pretty quickly. Those players are drafted every year and not only in the top 10.

And if someone has to be the best why is it TT? Because in 07 and before he had great drafts? Then I acknowledge he was the best from when he came into the league till 07 but since then he has been below average and has really hurt the team.

Be honest if TT was fired after 07 wouldn't you be comparing 08 draft and on to TT? And would you say that 08 till today has been just as good or even better than 07 and before? Imagine we had Jean Guy since 08 doing the drafting would you be calling him the best and saying how good or better he is than Timmins? If you will say honestly yes then we can agree to disagree. But I think objectively if they were 2 different people most would say TT was great we should never have fired him and the new guys is not half as good as TT was.

Yet it's not the same group of teams every year, why is that? It's because every team misses more often then not. Every complaint you have against Timmins can be applied to every other team.

 

[Belial]

how do you know he is not good enough ???

How about you google our drafts from 2007 till 2012? The answer is there.

Bergevin and Timmins just not good team IMO. Development in general has been easily one of worst in division.

Interesting that when Gainey/Gauthier were GM, the Habs were one of the best with Timmins. The moment Bergevin came in and added his guys to staff, none of the prospects in AHL were developing. Gallagher luckily only spent a couple months there due to lockout.

What has Bergevin to do with the drafts till 2012?

 

[scrubadam]

how do you know he is not good enough ???

LOL now I remember why I stopped responding to you.

Its my opinion. If you have a different one or disagree your free to do so. If you like the players he has drafted since 08 and on then thats your opinion I don't. To me the players he missed out on is enough to form my opinion. If you disagree feel free to do so.

Anyways last response from me to you.

 

[ECWHSWI]

How about you google our drafts from 2007 till 2012? The answer is there.



What has Bergevin to do with the drafts till 2012?

youre not awnsering the very simple question...

I know you want to make Timmins the bad guy so it excuses everything the coaching staff has done in the last 4 or 5 years, but you need to bring some substance you know...


cause so far that's how you guys are doing
scout 1 : 20% succes rate
scout 2 : 20% succes rate
Habs scout : 20% succes rate

-> OMG Timmins is so ****ing bad he misses most of the time !!!!!

 

[scrubadam]

Yet it's not the same group of teams every year, why is that? It's because every team misses more often then not. Every complaint you have against Timmins can be applied to every other team.

Did you not see the post where the poster broke down other eastern teams and the players they drafted? Its not true that every other team has been bad at drafting since 08 except for the bottom feeders.

How many other teams keep their same scouts? Its like as if we would of kept MT around as coach after missing the playoffs 5 or 7 times since the 07 season and then you would say well 14 teams miss the playoffs every year so no reason to fire the coach.

So how about my last paragraph? What if we hired John Doe in 08 to be in charge of the habs drafts. How would you compare John Doe to Timmins? Is John Doe better and just as good as Timmins? If you think the 08 till now is as good or better than what we got from 07 and before we can just agree to disagree. I don't think how anyone could realistically say that but opinions can be different.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It's weird, most of the management critics defend tt and vice versa. I generally support what mb does and I personally think TT is average at best.

 

[scrubadam]

It's weird, most of the management critics defend tt and vice versa. I generally support what mb does and I personally think TT is average at best.

I think it comes down to how important you think "development" is.

The more pro TT posters IMHO think development is the be end and end all. Basically all players that are drafted are even, lumps of clay and its the development that forms them.

OTOH you can look at it that talent trumps "development". If a player doesn't have the talent they will hit their ceiling and that ceiling is not an NHL player. (and I include drive/work ethic in talent as well).

Its a young mans game and more and more players are making the jump to the NHL quickly. Every draft there are players taken that can make the NHL within 2 maybe 3 years of being drafted and have an impact. So to me its on the scout to find those few players. The remaining 90% of players will top out as 3/4th liners or never make it and will player 3/4 years of AHL hockey. So when you only have 10 players spread over 7 rounds who can have an impact within a few years I want the guy who finds those players by hook or crook.

Its the difference between takein Dieder/Dietz/Beau over Johnny Hockey/Andrew Shaw/Klefboom. Just like TT did it once when he took Max/McD/PK over Eller/Perron/Coby Cohen. But its a crap shoot and luck so we can't really credit TT for those picks, and its the development too so again TT shouldn't get credit for those picks either. At this point might as well have a monkey making the picks if its all development and crapshoots.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

It's weird, most of the management critics defend tt and vice versa. I generally support what mb does and I personally think TT is average at best.

I think BargainBin critics would prefer to give TT the benefit of the doubt because he was just fine before BargainBin took over.

I, personally, wouldn't mind if he moved on but I don't trust this management to bring in a better replacement. Our pro-scouting department is deplorably bad, would rather these uh "folks" not touch the amateur scouting.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Did you not see the post where the poster broke down other eastern teams and the players they drafted? Its not true that every other team has been bad at drafting since 08 except for the bottom feeders.

How many other teams keep their same scouts? Its like as if we would of kept MT around as coach after missing the playoffs 5 or 7 times since the 07 season and then you would say well 14 teams miss the playoffs every year so no reason to fire the coach.

So how about my last paragraph? What if we hired John Doe in 08 to be in charge of the habs drafts. How would you compare John Doe to Timmins? Is John Doe better and just as good as Timmins? If you think the 08 till now is as good or better than what we got from 07 and before we can just agree to disagree. I don't think how anyone could realistically say that but opinions can be different.

Pens last 10 drafts : 3 1st rounders made it only -> 3 SCF (2 Cups)

Hawks last good draft was 2011, the 3 years before they sucked and since 11 they still sucks, yet they have 3 Cups in the last decade.


SJ good 1st rounders in the last decade are what Hertl or Couture maybe ? yet they made it to the SCF last season.




Habd drafted a full 1st pair of D and a 35 goals scorer in the same ****ing draft, that's after drafting Price two years before and drafting top 6 players in Galchenyuk and Gallagher since.

Teams usually win Cup(s) or at least make it to the SCF with good draft years like that...

 

[jfm133]

Stop the cherry picking in evaluating Timmins. Draft is not an exact science. What is important is the average considering how high globally the picks were. Judging Timmins based on 2008-2010 is ridiculous. He made two mistakes with Tinordi and Leblanc, but all the other good picks were taken away from him in these three years.

You want to pick a lot of cherries but chosen before Leblanc and Tinordi?

Glennie, Cowen, Paajarvi, Kassian, de Haan, Holland, Rundblad, Connolly, Burmistrov, McIlrath, Campbell, Gormley, Forbort, Hison, Watson, Bennett, Sheahan.

17 players out of 37 taken before Leblanc and Tinordi in these two years. How much better the Habs would be with two of them? Some of these players were taken by teams very good at amateur scouting (Tampa, Ottawa, Anaheim, Saint-Louis, Detroit, Los Angeles). So what does it tell us? The same thing, drafting 17-18 years old players is far from an exact science and even the best at it will make mistakes.

 

[scrubadam]

Stop the cherry picking in evaluating Timmins. Draft is not an exact science. What is important is the average considering how high globally the picks were. Judging Timmins based on 2008-2010 is ridiculous. He made two mistakes with Tinordi and Leblanc, but all the other good picks were taken away from him in these three years.

You want to pick a lot of cherries but chosen before Leblanc and Tinordi?

Glennie, Cowen, Paajarvi, Kassian, de Haan, Holland, Rundblad, Connolly, Burmistrov, McIlrath, Campbell, Gormley, Forbort, Hison, Watson, Bennett, Sheahan.

17 players out of 37 taken before Leblanc and Tinordi in these two years. How much better the Habs would be with two of them? Some of these players were taken by teams very good at amateur scouting (Tampa, Ottawa, Anaheim, Saint-Louis, Detroit, Los Angeles). So what does it tell us? The same thing, drafting 17-18 years old players is far from an exact science and even the best at it will make mistakes.

How long do you live with those mistakes though? Can say the same thing about coaching or a GM. Even the best GM's will make a bad signing, even the best coaches will lose games.

At some point you have to stop saying everyone else does it and evaluate the scout YOU HAVE. If we aren't going to use hindsight and look at the missed players the habs could have taken than we can't evaluate TT at all. And at that point might as well spin a ball to do your draft.

Bascially no matter the results, no matter how many players become impact NHLers or even NHLers, no matter who was taken after its never the scouts fault. So why have scouts at all? Just hire some guy off the street to read hockey news and HF boards and randomly select a player because there is no expectation that the scout will get it right. If they get it wrong well so does everyone else and we will just wait till next year, and the following year, and the year after that. And then its 10 years later and you have 1 or 2 players to show for you drafts.

 

[jfm133]

Sorry. The way you think you would fire a 0.300 hitter just because he had a slump for two weeks. Again, what matters is the average and the quality of the pitches (picks) over a long period.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Every team gets lucky with a late pick here and there. Karlsson, Giroux, Tarasenko, Subban, Benn, Carter/Richards, Perry/Getzlaf, Letang, Pastrnak, etc.

Are we getting lucky as often as other teams are?

 

[jfm133]

Sorry. Mid first round picks are not late picks.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Sorry. Mid first round picks are not late picks.

When picking up franchise level talents, it is.

Imagine if we could grab a Giroux type player with the 20th pick this year.

 

[Sorinth]

Did you not see the post where the poster broke down other eastern teams and the players they drafted? Its not true that every other team has been bad at drafting since 08 except for the bottom feeders.

Well I don't see how 65 points in 292 games Tom Wilson gets counted for Washington as a win. Had we drafted a forward with the 16th overall pick and he put up those numbers it would absolutely be considered a bust and someone like you would point out how we could've had Hertl, Maata. In 2008 they picked Gustafsson who busted completely instead of Eberle, Josi. I guess it's a good thing they had that extra first round pick otherwise it would look pretty bad for them. That's the difference between us, they had an extra 1st to make up for their mistake and we didn't have a 1st at all that year. Because besides that extra pick, all they've got is one good year, one high pick, and one great pick. We have a great year which you want to exclude, a high pick and one great pick as well.

For the Rangers players, I'm pretty sure Del Zotto would be considered a bust had we picked him, especially since they missed out on Eberle, Carlson, Josi. McIlrath was picked 10th overall, they could've had Tarasenko, Kuznetov, Fowler. Even a semi success like Kreider they missed out on much better players like Johansson, Palmieri, O'Reilly.

I mean when a guy names the Islanders as a top drafting team during 08-12 you know he's out to luch. They have a 1st overall, a 4th, two 5th, a 9th and a 12th and the only really good player out of that mix is Tavares, and a maybe in Strome. Can you imagine the hate we would've gotten had we drafted Reinhart instead of Galchenyuk in 2012. They have easily drafted worse then us over that time period, it's a series of terrible high picks.

How many other teams keep their same scouts? Its like as if we would of kept MT around as coach after missing the playoffs 5 or 7 times since the 07 season and then you would say well 14 teams miss the playoffs every year so no reason to fire the coach.

A big difference is you don't know how good a draft is until 5-10 years later. So we don't know if Timmins has done the equivalent of miss the playoffs 5 or 7 times. And I would also point out that how much missing the playoffs matters depends on the roster. Timmins had the equivalent of a terrible roster, so no I don't blame the coach for missing the playoffs if the roster is crap.

So how about my last paragraph? What if we hired John Doe in 08 to be in charge of the habs drafts. How would you compare John Doe to Timmins? Is John Doe better and just as good as Timmins? If you think the 08 till now is as good or better than what we got from 07 and before we can just agree to disagree. I don't think how anyone could realistically say that but opinions can be different.

Did we do better from 03-07 then we did from 08-12, of course we did. We also had much much better picks. We had a ton more picks including an extra 1st round pick during those first 5 years. 5th, 10th, 12th, 18th, 20th, 22nd compared to 3rd 17th, 18th, 22nd. I'm not sure how the expectations can be the same.

 

[Whitesnake]

Youre putting words in my mouth on a next level now.

First, I dont care about Timmins, nor anyone else in the organisation, aside from some players for which I have strong feelings, but mostly due to on ice play. (Though i did hate Therrien). So its not about defending someone or any of that or blaming.

I think its pretty evident all these players had good base on which you could develop a player. Leblanc had great IQ, good tools and he showed it at the NHL level for quite a few games. Obviously, i think his commitment to the game wasnt where it shouldve been, and I dont think he wouldve ever amounted to much offensive production, but it is still a player scraped for nothing.

In a sense, did Kreider look better than Tinordi? Both started with teo attribute, size and athleticism. Why did one pan out and not the other? Why does the Rangers pump out one or two quality players a year from the system and all we have to show for in the last 3 years is Beaulieu and Lekhonen?

Everybody starts at case 1 before the draft, and the scouting and drafting is not as important as development, never was, never will be.

Draft RNH and make him go through the **** show that is Edmonton and draft Kucherov and develop him properly, allowing him time to hone his skills against top competition at the WJC, let him prove his worth in the AHL without letting him rot there, let him destroy a league in the Q and learn in the POs, then he seems to be ready, what do you do? You send him out there with your best elements, and just like that he makes even a guy who won the Art ross two years prior expendable.

What words did I put in your mouth? You keep saying that developement was the problem, picks weren't. I'm saying there is NO way you can' t know that. Of course, Timmins didn't pick a guy in the 1st round that was suppose to be in the 7th. So it's not THAT obvious. We are not talking about Thomas Hickey being picked 4th here. Or Crisp being picked as high as he was. So those are the easy mistakes we can point out. Still, in the end, as Timmins himself say, it' snot about determining who is great now. Even US, armchair wannabee GM's can do that. Look at juniors players, look at the stats, and pick them amongst first. Again, if scouts would have done that, Bozon would have been picked first round. So it's about determining who has it in them to improve and grow as a player. Who has it in them to make it. Scouting is not easy. But it's still a job where you can see guys be hired or fired. So you need some results.

Did Kreider looked better than Tinordi? Tough to say, different position, still, while people might have wondered about Kreider's real offensive potential, the same way some wondered about Pacioretty back in the day, Tinordi BIGGEST problems always were footspeed and play with the puck which, in the end, are 2 freakin big problems to have if you can't correct it. So you can think all you want about how great those 2 were.....Tinordi had a steeper hill to climb than Kreider. And we went with that one and we missed. Somehow in 2003, we went with the highest boom or bost prospect of them all, and kinda missed based on who was there....and when it was time to do it in 2010 istead of Tinordi with Kuznetsov....we went with the big guy on D with a lot of work to be done on his footspeed and puck abilities.....

I have no idea what you mean when you say that scouting isn't as important as development. No idea. Yeah, a great pick needs great development to become a NHL player. But do you seriously think that any player picked can be a great NHL'er just becuase he has the best development tools? And what is THE way to develop a player. For every player who stays in the AHL a little while before he moves to the NHL quite fast....there are others who stay in the AHL for a longer period of time and still make it. Every player needs a different path. Tehre are no RIGHT paths. You find your own. But it does start with the right pick, the right fit for your team. And in the end, as fans, that's about the only thing you can judge....who was picked by whom. Even if there's so much more to take into consideration.

 

[Wats]

How about you google our drafts from 2007 till 2012? The answer is there.



What has Bergevin to do with the drafts till 2012?

He took on bunch of Junior players and rookie pros from 2009 draft. I guess any fault should be deflected?

 

[mariolemieux66]

The problem with our drafting is when we should have went for the bigger player we went for the little skill guy who wasn't goid enough to compensate for his lack of size and when we should have went for the skill guy we went for the big guy that didnt pan out. Timmins swing and missed a lot.

 

[Aceekay]

The problem with our drafting is when we should have went for the bigger player we went for the little skill guy who wasn't goid enough to compensate for his lack of size and when we should have went for the skill guy we went for the big guy that didnt pan out. Timmins swing and missed a lot.

I would say the opposite of what you're saying, we went with Crisp over Duclair, McCarron over Theodore, Tinordi over Kuznetsov. I think Timmins goes for reliable safe picks in the first rounds and then goes for home runs in the later rounds. This isn't a bad way to draft, but I find our first round picks have been somewhat disappointing because we avoid risky picks, like Beauvilier for example, although Juulsen shouldn't be counted out yet.

 

[Belial]

I would say the opposite of what you're saying, we went with Crisp over Duclair, McCarron over Theodore, Tinordi over Kuznetsov. I think Timmins goes for reliable safe picks in the first rounds and then goes for home runs in the later rounds. This isn't a bad way to draft, but I find our first round picks have been somewhat disappointing because we avoid risky picks, like Beauvilier for example, although Juulsen shouldn't be counted out yet.

Tinordi was just a freaking brutal pick!

You have Hayes, Kuznetsov, Coyle and Nelson all drafted within the next 8 picks!

No **** this team has no depth at center with such blunders...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

In the MB vs TT debate. Look at guys like Collberg, Zucale, Thrower, etc... who were hyped and turned out meh before they even hit the AHL. All 2nd rounders by the way. That's not development issue...

 

[HuGort]

Tinordi was just a freaking brutal pick!

You have Hayes, Kuznetsov, Coyle and Nelson all drafted within the next 8 picks!

No **** this team has no depth at center with such blunders...

Plus we traded a 2nd to move up to draft Tinordi....yes, Timmins you are a great judge of talent!

I would say the opposite of what you're saying, we went with Crisp over Duclair, McCarron over Theodore, Tinordi over Kuznetsov. I think Timmins goes for reliable safe picks in the first rounds and then goes for home runs in the later rounds. This isn't a bad way to draft, but I find our first round picks have been somewhat disappointing because we avoid risky picks, like Beauvilier for example, although Juulsen shouldn't be counted out yet.

Timmins drafts a lot of small skill in late rounds which other teams have passed on because they don't want to end up small team someday. It does pad Timmins' draft record. But at recognizing talent....he's a C

 

[Wats]

In the MB vs TT debate. Look at guys like Collberg, Zucale, Thrower, etc... who were hyped and turned out meh before they even hit the AHL. All 2nd rounders by the way. That's not development issue...

I don't have an issue with people criticizing Timmins but disagree with the notion that he should receive majority of the blame. Drafting and developing go hand in hand, if end result is bad both should be questioned. Personally find it quite the coincidence though that Timmins with his track record of churning NHLers would suddenly lose it completely when MB brought his guys. Not going to say he couldn't have made better picks but my concern is would it have made any difference with the development in place?

I'd swap Fucale with Crisp though, as much as I hated Fucale pick he did have some success at junior level post-draft.