Trevor Timmins Part II

[Dannyhab]

Isn't criticizing Trevor Timmins a little like criticizing a blackjack player's choices after the hand is over?

Drafting is mostly a crap shoot & we all have the ability to look in hindsight.

 

[montreal]

BPA is obviously subjective but I think there are still criteria teams set which puts a bias on what BPA means. For example, when Houle was GM a common problem with players we selected was they could not skate well and so we had many bust for that reason. Though many were quite talented, or could at least produce. At the same time, they tended to be big guys. So there must have been a philosophy that you draft big guys and hope skating will come.

There have been times we have selected guys and they were clearly touted as shut down guys, like a Tinordi, big, mean shut down guy we have needed for years.. blah blah. Or great two way player with heart, captain material...blah blah.

For BPA I think we need criteria to bias it to skating and pure talent. To me these are top criteria. Then you can have everything else, including a bit of size ( I know small guys can do well in the NHL right now, but would help right now if we weren't so small at forward ).

Bottom line to me is shoot for skaters that have some chance at being top 6 forwards or top 4 D with every pick. Picking a guy because he could be a great two way third liner etc is a waste of a pick.

as someone that still has nightmares from the job the scouts did pre-Timmins, I always stick up for him since he's done such a better job then the past. Granted there have been major changes to the scouting world through technology, and the NHL is a far cry from what it was just 10 years ago. Back then who would have thought that teams would sour on 6'6 blueliners that are physical. Who would have thought that skilled 5'8 players would be more sought after.

Since the Habs have hire Shane Churla, I still wonder how much impact that has had since they created a position that didn't exist for him and I wonder if some of the reaches for bigger body tougher guys has come from him or not. Either way when you don't have many top 50 picks, I say don't expect much.

 

[Frank Drebin]

He's average at best, all the scouts have a few homeruns like TT, but he lags far behind in other rounds and areas. He has a vision of small players, because he is a smurf himself.

In the bodybuilding community, the proper term is manlet.

 

[scrubadam]

Isn't criticizing Trevor Timmins a little like criticizing a blackjack player's choices after the hand is over?

Drafting is mostly a crap shoot & we all have the ability to look in hindsight.

So in turn why give him credit for his good picks? Its a crap shoot right ? So if you cant criticize him for the Tinordis and Leblancs the he shouldnt get praised for the Subbans and Gallaghers either.

With drafting you have to use hindsight. Its a hard job to predict how 18 year olda are going to be in 5 or 10 years. But thats there job. The best scout should be getting the best players in the draft. If they keep missing the best players for lessers players than its not fair to call thar scout the best. No scout will be perfect and they will all have misses but when do the misses become more than the hits ? And how many drafts can go by with constant misses.

 

[Jeffrey]

Isn't criticizing Trevor Timmins a little like criticizing a blackjack player's choices after the hand is over?

Drafting is mostly a crap shoot & we all have the ability to look in hindsight.

It's not as crap shoot as believed.

If it was. No team would spend any significant money on it and just use a monkey to select the pick just for laughing purpose.

 

[Belial]

I think you are mistaking normal development curve and exceeding expectations.

We were talking about improving weaknesses, it's what I brought up.

 

[Sorinth]

So in turn why give him credit for his good picks? Its a crap shoot right ? So if you cant criticize him for the Tinordis and Leblancs the he shouldnt get praised for the Subbans and Gallaghers either.

With drafting you have to use hindsight. Its a hard job to predict how 18 year olda are going to be in 5 or 10 years. But thats there job. The best scout should be getting the best players in the draft. If they keep missing the best players for lessers players than its not fair to call thar scout the best. No scout will be perfect and they will all have misses but when do the misses become more than the hits ? And how many drafts can go by with constant misses.

This is completely wrong. The best scout won't consistently get the best players, he'll simply increase your odds of getting more/better players. we know the odds of a draft picking turning into a good player, so we can very easily judge Timmins with respect to the average.

For example, the chance of getting a top-6 forward/top-4 defenceman with a 2nd round pick is 10%. Up to 2012 Timmins is 2/9, if Lehkonen pans out as a top-6 guy he'll be 3/12. So here Timmins is more then twice as good as the league average. Maybe that doesn't make him the best but certainly he's up there.

EDIT: And if we can't call a scout the best because they miss out on the best players a lot, then no scout can be considered the best because they all fail that test.

 

[Mrb1p]

Leblanc, Tinordi, Hudon, Dietz, Mygren, Ghetto, Thrower, Bozon, MCC, DLR, Reway, Scherback

Are all good picks talent wise.

The problem is not in the drafting of those kids, but how they never were developped.

A player will not magically acquire NHL skills while spending all his life in the AHL.

Give them time to develop.

Crisp and Collberg were two of the really bad picks i can agree with.

Having 5 2nd round picks in 8 years, amd completely fanning on 4 of them is what is actually killing us.

 

[1909]

Leblanc, Tinordi, Hudon, Dietz, Mygren, Ghetto, Thrower, Bozon, MCC, DLR, Reway, Scherback

Are all good picks talent wise.

The problem is not in the drafting of those kids, but how they never were developped.

A player will not magically acquire NHL skills while spending all his life in the AHL.

Give them time to develop.

Crisp and Collberg were two of the really bad picks i can agree with.

Having 5 2nd round picks in 8 years, amd completely fanning on 4 of them is what is actually killing us.

I could had bolded everyone of them... We don't have the same definition of talent, that's for sure. They have few skills, but not exactly something that translate well at NHL level.

 

[Mrb1p]

I could had bolded everyone of them... We don't have the same definition of talent, that's for sure. They have few skills, but not exactly something that translate well at NHL level.

Bozon and Thrower didnt make the NHL because they were plagued with injuries, not for lack of talent.

Leblanc was a jack of all trades, master of none and he showed great promise in the NHL but them Therrien and Bergevin decided he wasnt in the plans anymore, much like Tinordi, so they let him rot in the minors or in the standings.

 

[Lorty]

I don't want to blame it on Timmins, it can be a combination of many things (bad luck, not enough picks, bad development, etc), but man, 2008-2012 killed us.


We got Beaulieu, Gallagher and Galchenyuk in that span, that's it. Not even a big and strong third or fourth liner that could fill in the depth, or struggling players that could been traded for future picks.


Compare this to the best teams of the East (2008-2012 drafts) :


Washington : John Carlson, Braden Holtby, Dmitri Orlov, Marcus Johansson, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Tom Wilson (Also Filip Forsberg and Cody Eakin but WAS got nothing in return, unless you consider Ribeiro...)

NYR : Michael Del Zotto, Derek Stepan, Chris Kreider, Jesper Fast, J.T. Miller, Brady Skjei

Columbus : Cam Atkinson, Ryan Johansen (Seth Jones), David Savard, Matt Calvert, Boone Jenner, Josh Anderson, Ryan Murray (not all of them are top players, but you still need to draft regular bottom 6 players and bottom D, otherwise you are going to waste assets/picks to get them from other teams)

TBL : Bad goaltending and injuries hurt them this year, but they were really good in the past few years thanks to : Steven Stamkos, Victor Hedman, Ondrej Palat, Nikita Kucherov (obviously they got many good picks, but this is what you need to be able to compete)

Pittsburgh : Pittsburgh isn't that impressive, but they still managed to get Matt Murray which helped them tremendously to get their cup. Also : Bryan Rust, Olli Maatta and Lovejoy (Despres) were playing during the playoffs and helped them as depth players.

Islanders : They got ****ed by bad decisions, but their 2008-2012 drafting years are impressive : John Tavares, Anders Lee, Casey Cizikas, Brock Nelson, Nino Niederreiter, Ryan Strome, Joshua Bailey, Travis Hamonic, Jared Spurgeon



Most of the teams that share similar, worse or slightly better (compared to the Habs) drafts from 2008-2012, are currently struggling (Philadelphia, Boston, Dallas, Detroit, New Jersey...) or rebuilding or in the process of rebuilding (Toronto, Vancouver, Arizona, Colorado, New Jersey...).

 

[Whitesnake]

Leblanc, Tinordi, Hudon, Dietz, Mygren, Ghetto, Thrower, Bozon, MCC, DLR, Reway, Scherback

Are all good picks talent wise.

The problem is not in the drafting of those kids, but how they never were developped.

A player will not magically acquire NHL skills while spending all his life in the AHL.

Give them time to develop.

Crisp and Collberg were two of the really bad picks i can agree with.

Having 5 2nd round picks in 8 years, amd completely fanning on 4 of them is what is actually killing us.

You will never know that. Nobody ever will. And yet, it always goes about who we want to defend. While I hate Lefebvre and Co, he wasn't there for the last 15 years. And I can name you tons of different picks that we could "pretend" were great picks but were not develop properly. Urquhart was frail and hated the tough game...but was skilled. Locke was tiny but an awesome scorer. Different times for him? Woudl he have made it the way Gaudreau made it? We will never know...probably not because of his overall lack of speed yet....tons of players improved their speed why couldn't he? Development problem? 1 guy you can most definately say was probably a good pick but was indeed an injury casuality was Latendresse. 'Cause no matter how you want to picture Thrower, Reway and Bozon and put it SOLELY on injuries, is a brillant cop out. There are so many great junior players that never made it and it's NOT solely because of development. It's because of tons of different reasons. From their ceiling being stopped at that level just because. Because of them not willing to put the extra effort etc. So what do we all do for every team? We blame the scouts. Name of the game. And it's our prerogative as people who don't know the inside of a team. Watch the end result, comment on it. The "development" part only happens when we draft a kid, he doesn't show a whole lot with us, then goes elsewhere and explodes. Might not even be a development problem. Might be the kid who just decided to move in the right direction etc.....but for us, fans, that's the only way we could try to figure out whose "fault" it was.

And I have NO IDEA how could say that Collberg was a bad pick compared to the others you mentioned. ON the contrary, Collberg was a fine pick. Probably the ONLY pick we all, as a board, agreed on. Not sure if it ever happened. Does that mean a lot that we all agreed on it? Maybe not. But it was not coming otu of nowhere. Contrary to the Crisp pick. Or the most recent Pezzetta pick. Or those infamous "hidden" gems like Avtsin, Koberstein, Valentenko and maybe Vejdemo, all "hidden gems" that most likely were hidden for a good reason.

You talk about how greatly skilled Bozon was.....and yet while the guy ended up PPG in his draft year in the WHL which is an awesome feature for a draftee, he was picked 64th. If he was so greatly skilled and made for the NHL, a scorer like that would have gone 1st round no doubt.That's what Gaunce went in.

 

[jfm133]

The best way to judge a chief scout is by the quality of his draft lists every year. We don't have access to that, but Timmins survived three GM changes. André Savard hired him, then Gainey kept him, same for Gauthier and Bergevin. These guys had access to Timmins's draft lists for every year since he is with the Habs. So they can judge him not only who the team picked, but by the overall quality of his work.

 

[Whitesnake]

The best way to judge a chief scout is by the quality of his draft lists every year. We don't have access to that, but Timmins survived three GM changes. André Savard hired him, then Gainey kept him, same for Gauthier and Bergevin. These guys had access to Timmins's draft lists for every year since he is with the Habs. So they can judge him not only who the team picked, but by the overall quality of his work.

I don't think people are saying he's bad. I think it's mostly about stopping with this "the best" syndrom we have in Montreal, from Timmins, to Price, to the crowd and so on other nonsense. And that at one point, at worst, people might think it would be time to change IF we have a great candidate in the ranks, so to change the dynamic might not be that bad. I mean, every other team in this league do NOT have Timmins and quite a few in there have very good results nonetheless. So scouting might not start and end with Timmins. And again, I think that following the 2007 season, there was like no way to change the guy. Nobody would have change him after that year. So even if Savard, Gainey and Gauthier kept him, it's pretty much irrelevant. At one point, it's Bergevin who could have decided to part ways and he didn't. That was his decision. Great part about it is that it's impossible to know if we would have been better if we would have changed him....not knowing who could have taken his place. Still.....why the need to bring Churla....and what were his credentials before that?

 

[Mrb1p]

You will never know that. Nobody ever will. And yet, it always goes about who we want to defend. While I hate Lefebvre and Co, he wasn't there for the last 15 years. And I can name you tons of different picks that we could "pretend" were great picks but were not develop properly. Urquhart was frail and hated the tough game...but was skilled. Locke was tiny but an awesome scorer. Different times for him? Woudl he have made it the way Gaudreau made it? We will never know...probably not because of his overall lack of speed yet....tons of players improved their speed why couldn't he? Development problem? 1 guy you can most definately say was probably a good pick but was indeed an injury casuality was Latendresse. 'Cause no matter how you want to picture Thrower, Reway and Bozon and put it SOLELY on injuries, is a brillant cop out. There are so many great junior players that never made it and it's NOT solely because of development. It's because of tons of different reasons. From their ceiling being stopped at that level just because. Because of them not willing to put the extra effort etc. So what do we all do for every team? We blame the scouts. Name of the game. And it's our prerogative as people who don't know the inside of a team. Watch the end result, comment on it. The "development" part only happens when we draft a kid, he doesn't show a whole lot with us, then goes elsewhere and explodes. Might not even be a development problem. Might be the kid who just decided to move in the right direction etc.....but for us, fans, that's the only way we could try to figure out whose "fault" it was.

And I have NO IDEA how could say that Collberg was a bad pick compared to the others you mentioned. ON the contrary, Collberg was a fine pick. Probably the ONLY pick we all, as a board, agreed on. Not sure if it ever happened. Does that mean a lot that we all agreed on it? Maybe not. But it was not coming otu of nowhere. Contrary to the Crisp pick. Or the most recent Pezzetta pick. Or those infamous "hidden" gems like Avtsin, Koberstein, Valentenko and maybe Vejdemo, all "hidden gems" that most likely were hidden for a good reason.

You talk about how greatly skilled Bozon was.....and yet while the guy ended up PPG in his draft year in the WHL which is an awesome feature for a draftee, he was picked 64th. If he was so greatly skilled and made for the NHL, a scorer like that would have gone 1st round no doubt.That's what Gaunce went in.

Youre putting words in my mouth on a next level now.

First, I dont care about Timmins, nor anyone else in the organisation, aside from some players for which I have strong feelings, but mostly due to on ice play. (Though i did hate Therrien). So its not about defending someone or any of that or blaming.

I think its pretty evident all these players had good base on which you could develop a player. Leblanc had great IQ, good tools and he showed it at the NHL level for quite a few games. Obviously, i think his commitment to the game wasnt where it shouldve been, and I dont think he wouldve ever amounted to much offensive production, but it is still a player scraped for nothing.

In a sense, did Kreider look better than Tinordi? Both started with teo attribute, size and athleticism. Why did one pan out and not the other? Why does the Rangers pump out one or two quality players a year from the system and all we have to show for in the last 3 years is Beaulieu and Lekhonen?

Everybody starts at case 1 before the draft, and the scouting and drafting is not as important as development, never was, never will be.

Draft RNH and make him go through the **** show that is Edmonton and draft Kucherov and develop him properly, allowing him time to hone his skills against top competition at the WJC, let him prove his worth in the AHL without letting him rot there, let him destroy a league in the Q and learn in the POs, then he seems to be ready, what do you do? You send him out there with your best elements, and just like that he makes even a guy who won the Art ross two years prior expendable.

 

[scrubadam]

This is completely wrong. The best scout won't consistently get the best players, he'll simply increase your odds of getting more/better players. we know the odds of a draft picking turning into a good player, so we can very easily judge Timmins with respect to the average.

For example, the chance of getting a top-6 forward/top-4 defenceman with a 2nd round pick is 10%. Up to 2012 Timmins is 2/9, if Lehkonen pans out as a top-6 guy he'll be 3/12. So here Timmins is more then twice as good as the league average. Maybe that doesn't make him the best but certainly he's up there.

EDIT: And if we can't call a scout the best because they miss out on the best players a lot, then no scout can be considered the best because they all fail that test.

I acknowledge that no scout will be perfect in my post. But at some point a scout needs more hits than misses. If Timmins was truely one of the best he would consistently be getting some of the top players. He did it up until 2007. Since then he has passed by many players. The list is very long on players taken around when habs had picks and Timmins chose lesser players who busted.

So yes no scout is perfect and they will all have misses. The question is how long do you live with those misses? The draft today is going to effect the team in 4 or 5 years from now. 08-11 habs are paying the price now. Krider/Kuznetzov/Klefboom were 3 players TT missed on in 3 drafts in a row where he took lesser players that busted. Yes its hindsight but imagine this team had 2 of those guys instead of Leblanc/Tinordi/Beau. Will we look back at 12/13/14/ drafts and talk about players that habs missed on?

And Timmins is supposed to increase the odds of getting good players in the draft and IMHO he has not been doing that since 07. We will see what the 13 and on drafts bring.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I acknowledge that no scout will be perfect in my post. But at some point a scout needs more hits than misses. If Timmins was truely one of the best he would consistently be getting some of the top players. He did it up until 2007. Since then he has passed by many players. The list is very long on players taken around when habs had picks and Timmins chose lesser players who busted.

So yes no scout is perfect and they will all have misses. The question is how long do you live with those misses? The draft today is going to effect the team in 4 or 5 years from now. 08-11 habs are paying the price now. Krider/Kuznetzov/Klefboom were 3 players TT missed on in 3 drafts in a row where he took lesser players that busted. Yes its hindsight but imagine this team had 2 of those guys instead of Leblanc/Tinordi/Beau. Will we look back at 12/13/14/ drafts and talk about players that habs missed on?

And Timmins is supposed to increase the odds of getting good players in the draft and IMHO he has not been doing that since 07. We will see what the 13 and on drafts bring.

really ??


what's the hit/miss ratio for good scouts ??? 60%? ? 70% ? 80% maybe ?

 

[scrubadam]

Leblanc, Tinordi, Hudon, Dietz, Mygren, Ghetto, Thrower, Bozon, MCC, DLR, Reway, Scherback

Are all good picks talent wise.

The problem is not in the drafting of those kids, but how they never were developped.

A player will not magically acquire NHL skills while spending all his life in the AHL.

Give them time to develop.

Crisp and Collberg were two of the really bad picks i can agree with.

Having 5 2nd round picks in 8 years, amd completely fanning on 4 of them is what is actually killing us.

I disagree, most talent will make the NHL without much AHL time. If a player is spending a lot of time in the AHL odds are they are a fringe talent. NHL talents will play maybe a year in the AHL, some none before making the jump.

Its a young mans game. Teams need players who can step in. If you are not drafting those players then your team is going to have a hard time managing the cap and competiting. A guy like Gallagher barely spent any time in the AHL. Marner and Nyldnder didn't do 3 years in the AHL. Every draft there are a couple of players who can make the jump within 2 years of being drafted. Its the job of the scout to draft those players. If a scout keeps missing those players than you have to evaluate your scouting.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I disagree, most talent will make the NHL without much AHL time. If a player is spending a lot of time in the AHL odds are they are a fringe talent. NHL talents will play maybe a year in the AHL, some none before making the jump.

Its a young mans game. Teams need players who can step in. If you are not drafting those players then your team is going to have a hard time managing the cap and competiting. A guy like Gallagher barely spent any time in the AHL. Marner and Nyldnder didn't do 3 years in the AHL. Every draft there are a couple of players who can make the jump within 2 years of being drafted. Its the job of the scout to draft those players. If a scout keeps missing those players than you have to evaluate your scouting.

...Marner and Nylander were top picks... if a guy you picked in the top 10 spends more than one season in the minors, there's something wrong with him. Timmins has been hurt by our **** staff in the AHL and lack of quality picks. You can count on one hand the players that were doomed to busy on one hand since 2003.

 

[scrubadam]

really ??


what's the hit/miss ratio for good scouts ??? 60%? ? 70% ? 80% maybe ?

Whatever you are willing to live with. Maybe some are happy with a 1 player every 10 picks, maybe some 5 players every 10 picks.

Just keep in mind that a bad draft today hurts the team in 3/4/5 years. Taking Leblanc and Tinordi instead of Kuznetzov and Krider has been hurting the team the past 3 years and those drafts took place 7/8 years ago just as an example. Habs in 2011 took JOSH DIEDER at 97. 7 picks later Johnny Hockey was taken. Yup tons of scouts missed on him. But would you rather have the guy who misses or hits the homerun ? LOL habs took Darren Dietz at 138 only last summer to throw 2 2nds for the guy taken one pick later Andrew Shaw.

So how long as an organization and a fan are you willing to live with constant misses? Is it important as an org/fan that the team have young players able to step in and play on ELC's very quickly? Or do you prefer trading and signing vets with over paid contracts? Each person/org has a different threshold. MB hasn't reached his with TT and some fans haven't either. OTOH some fans have and think that TT's status as one of the best is overrated.

...Marner and Nylander were top picks... if a guy you picked in the top 10 spends more than one season in the minors, there's something wrong with him. Timmins has been hurt by our **** staff in the AHL and lack of quality picks. You can count on one hand the players that were doomed to busy on one hand since 2003.

OK then you have Pasternak who made the jump at 25th pick.

Every draft there are a couple players who are good enough to make the jump within 2 maybe 3 years of being drafted. IMHO the scouts job is to find those players. The majority of players drafted will bust and won't amount to anything. So there is a limited group of players that will become true NHLers. I want the scout who is finding those players.

So yes a scout will have tons of misses all of them, but we should only judge on the hits because the nature of the draft with 7 rounds is that most players won't make it. So I want the scout of my team getting those couple of players that make it and make it quickly.

TT needs to find more Gallaghers and less Ghetto's. And the Gallaghers of the world don't come around every 5 drafts there are a few of those guys every year.

 

[Sorinth]

I acknowledge that no scout will be perfect in my post. But at some point a scout needs more hits than misses. If Timmins was truely one of the best he would consistently be getting some of the top players. He did it up until 2007. Since then he has passed by many players. The list is very long on players taken around when habs had picks and Timmins chose lesser players who busted.

So yes no scout is perfect and they will all have misses. The question is how long do you live with those misses? The draft today is going to effect the team in 4 or 5 years from now. 08-11 habs are paying the price now. Krider/Kuznetzov/Klefboom were 3 players TT missed on in 3 drafts in a row where he took lesser players that busted. Yes its hindsight but imagine this team had 2 of those guys instead of Leblanc/Tinordi/Beau. Will we look back at 12/13/14/ drafts and talk about players that habs missed on?

And Timmins is supposed to increase the odds of getting good players in the draft and IMHO he has not been doing that since 07. We will see what the 13 and on drafts bring.

I'll repeat the odds, a 2nd round pick is 10%, so you actually think the top scouts should be more than 5 times better then the average average?

I can come up with a similar list of misses for every single team. Yet someone still has to be the best.

 

[scrubadam]

I'll repeat the odds, a 2nd round pick is 10%, so you actually think the top scouts should be more than 5 times better then the average average?

I can come up with a similar list of misses for every single team. Yet someone still has to be the best.

I think the top scout should be getting players whichever round that can jump to the NHL pretty quickly. Those players are drafted every year and not only in the top 10.

And if someone has to be the best why is it TT? Because in 07 and before he had great drafts? Then I acknowledge he was the best from when he came into the league till 07 but since then he has been below average and has really hurt the team.

Be honest if TT was fired after 07 wouldn't you be comparing 08 draft and on to TT? And would you say that 08 till today has been just as good or even better than 07 and before? Imagine we had Jean Guy since 08 doing the drafting would you be calling him the best and saying how good or better he is than Timmins? If you will say honestly yes then we can agree to disagree. But I think objectively if they were 2 different people most would say TT was great we should never have fired him and the new guys is not half as good as TT was.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Whatever you are willing to live with. Maybe some are happy with a 1 player every 10 picks, maybe some 5 players every 10 picks.

Just keep in mind that a bad draft today hurts the team in 3/4/5 years. Taking Leblanc and Tinordi instead of Kuznetzov and Krider has been hurting the team the past 3 years and those drafts took place 7/8 years ago just as an example. Habs in 2011 took JOSH DIEDER at 97. 7 picks later Johnny Hockey was taken. Yup tons of scouts missed on him. But would you rather have the guy who misses or hits the homerun ? LOL habs took Darren Dietz at 138 only last summer to throw 2 2nds for the guy taken one pick later Andrew Shaw.

So how long as an organization and a fan are you willing to live with constant misses? Is it important as an org/fan that the team have young players able to step in and play on ELC's very quickly? Or do you prefer trading and signing vets with over paid contracts? Each person/org has a different threshold. MB hasn't reached his with TT and some fans haven't either. OTOH some fans have and think that TT's status as one of the best is overrated.

missed the point completely...

it's very simple : you say more hits than miss... so, what are the ratios for the good scouts out there ???? do you even know ????

 

[scrubadam]

missed the point completely...

it's very simple : you say more hits than miss... so, what are the ratios for the good scouts out there ???? do you even know ????

Its not an inquisition here buddy.

The only thing I know is that Timmins since after 07 has missed a ton of great players that would have helped the habs tremendously. If as a fan you are satisfied with that then fine so be it I am not.

So I don't care about ratio's or % I only care about the players on the habs team. If TT isn't good enough to draft those guys then thats on him. If you are happy with his drafts then thats your opinion and you are free to have it.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Its not an inquisition here buddy.

The only thing I know is that Timmins since after 07 has missed a ton of great players that would have helped the habs tremendously. If as a fan you are satisfied with that then fine so be it I am not.

So I don't care about ratio's or % I only care about the players on the habs team. If TT isn't good enough to draft those guys then thats on him. If you are happy with his drafts then thats your opinion and you are free to have it.

how do you know he is not good enough ???