Traverse City Prospect Tournament 2018

[Edge]

My theory is they did their scout a favor because his son's career was in early jeopardy because his Swedish team did not want him, and not too many other teams or leagues were interested. So they thought by having him drafted would help the kid get some recognition by impressing some teams that he was drafted by an NHL team so he must be a legit talented prospect. In the end he managed to get in one of the US colleges but they made him wait a year playing in USHL.

But here's the problem with that theory, it doesn't actually do the kid any favors.

It's not like baseball where he's going to play in the Rookie league. He's going to the USHL, and he's going to college. That would've happened with or without the Rangers because it was already in motion. Those teams didn't suddenly decide to draft him, or potentially offer him a scholarship because the Rangers drafted him. And the Rangers can't sign him while he's going that route, nor do they plan to sign him right now.

So there's no favor to be made by drafting the kid, and if they did, why would they have picked him in the 6th and not the 7th round?

Again, there's no precedent for this happening, it didn't happen earlier with a better prospect, there's no clear distinction as to how it benefits anyone, and it was done in a round that the Rangers take pretty seriously.

The Rangers have taken names such as Morgan Barron, Gabriel Fontaine, Mackenzie Skapski, Jesper Fast, Carl Hegelin, Marek Zidlicky, and Mike York in the sixth round of the last 20 or so years. That says nothing of the team's long-term legacy in that round, with names such as Darren Turcotte, Kjell Samuelsson, Tony Granato, Reijo Ruotsainen, and Tom Laidlaw, nor does it take into account players they found in rounds later than the 6th --- Lundqvist, Ronning, Prucha, Hollweg, and others.

I'd dare argue that the Rangers have one of, if not the most successful track record for finding talent in the 6th round over the years. It's a weird distinction, but the names are there.

Point being, I seriously doubt they are throwing away a sixth round pick on a favor to a scout. Now if the kid were 22, had no pro offers, and wanted to get into scouting or some other behind the scenes job, that is a possibility. But especially in today's NHL, no one is handing out a sixth round pick as a thank you note to a scout.

The Rangers like something in him. Now, whether or not they should, or whether or not we agree, that is the debate.

 

[Tawnos]

the fact that he is a scouts son is complete irrelevant imo. the issue is that he wasn't ranked on any charts anywhere. the fact that he is a scout's son might explain why we took a kid not ranked in the top 300 on any charts but that isn't the problem. no one would have an issue with the nepotism if he was good.

but i'm still not getting too worked up about a 6th round pick...and the fact that we seem to have gotten a decent prospect in the 7th round helps too

Teams take unranked players in the later rounds all the time.

 

[Edge]

Teams take unranked players in the later rounds all the time.

And it's obvious the Rangers could give two deuces about where players are "ranked" prior to the draft.

After all the debates about Andersson, Chytil, Kravtsov, Lindbom, Miller, etc., you'd think the surprise would wear off.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Teams take unranked players in the later rounds all the time.

Yep, and plenty of "high" ranked players don't even get picked. I see it each year. Players projected to be selected in the 3rd round, aren't picked at all. This year again.

Nando Eggenberger, Yegor Sokolov, Danila Galenyuk to name a few.

 

[nyr2k2]

Teams take unranked players in the later rounds all the time.

I looked at this draft. Here are the unranked guys taken in the sixth and seventh:

Victor Brattstrom, 21-year-old goalie
Simon Kjellberg
Veini Vehviläinen, 21-year-old goalie
John Leonard, 20-year-old wing
Jared Moe, over-age wing
Artyom Manukyan, 20-year-old forward
William Worge Kreu
Josiah Slavin, over-age defenseman
Shamil Shmakov, over-age goalie
Radim Salda, over-age wing
Santtu Kinnunen, over-age defenseman
Sam Hentges, over-age forward
Pavel Shen, over-age forward
Milan Kloucek, 21-year-old goalie

So, you're 100% right--23% of the guys taken in the sixth and seventh round were unranked by CSS, McKeen's, ISS, Future Considerations, TSN, Hockey Prospectus, etc. However, they're almost all guys that are over-aged and are in their second or third pass-through of the draft. I quickly looked at 2017's draft (don't have time to pull all the players) and it looks roughly the same. It is uncommon for a guy in his first year of draft eligibility to be chosen when none of the scouting services/publications have him ranked or on their radar. I don't know what that means, if anything, but it does seem noteworthy.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I looked at this draft. Here are the unranked guys taken in the sixth and seventh:

Victor Brattstrom, 21-year-old goalie
Simon Kjellberg
Veini Vehviläinen, 21-year-old goalie
John Leonard, 20-year-old wing
Jared Moe, over-age wing
Artyom Manukyan, 20-year-old forward
William Worge Kreu
Josiah Slavin, over-age defenseman
Shamil Shmakov, over-age goalie
Radim Salda, over-age wing
Santtu Kinnunen, over-age defenseman
Sam Hentges, over-age forward
Pavel Shen, over-age forward
Milan Kloucek, 21-year-old goalie

So, you're 100% right--23% of the guys taken in the sixth and seventh round were unranked by CSS, McKeen's, ISS, Future Considerations, TSN, Hockey Prospectus, etc. However, they're almost all guys that are over-aged and are in their second or third pass-through of the draft. I quickly looked at 2017's draft (don't have time to pull all the players) and it looks roughly the same. It is uncommon for a guy in his first year of draft eligibility to be chosen when none of the scouting services/publications have him ranked or on their radar. I don't know what that means, if anything, but it does seem noteworthy.

It’s also silly to assume that the consensus rankings are really thay useful as you get later into the draft. It’s mostly niche work by the teams after the 4th round, and I doubt the consensus guys have seen these kids as much as each individual team.

We’ve dedicated way too much space to discussing this kid, and we’re severely overlooking the most likely reasons why they drafted him in the first place. It’s bizarre.

 

[Edge]

I looked at this draft. Here are the unranked guys taken in the sixth and seventh:

Victor Brattstrom, 21-year-old goalie
Simon Kjellberg
Veini Vehviläinen, 21-year-old goalie
John Leonard, 20-year-old wing
Jared Moe, over-age wing
Artyom Manukyan, 20-year-old forward
William Worge Kreu
Josiah Slavin, over-age defenseman
Shamil Shmakov, over-age goalie
Radim Salda, over-age wing
Santtu Kinnunen, over-age defenseman
Sam Hentges, over-age forward
Pavel Shen, over-age forward
Milan Kloucek, 21-year-old goalie

So, you're 100% right--23% of the guys taken in the sixth and seventh round were unranked by CSS, McKeen's, ISS, Future Considerations, TSN, Hockey Prospectus, etc. However, they're almost all guys that are over-aged and are in their second or third pass-through of the draft. I quickly looked at 2017's draft (don't have time to pull all the players) and it looks roughly the same. It is uncommon for a guy in his first year of draft eligibility to be chosen when none of the scouting services/publications have him ranked or on their radar. I don't know what that means, if anything, but it does seem noteworthy.

IDK, if Kjellberg was a favor, doesn't it seem more like they would've waited to take him as an over-ager, and/or waited longer to sign him to a pro contract or send him to the ECHL? (Which of course would probably have met with even more claims of nepotism because he was passed over multiple times.)

But it's not like the Rangers don't have a history of taking flyers on older prospects or signing them as undrafted free agents.

That's yet another reason I don't but into the theory of using a draft pick as a favor instead of legitimately thinking there is something there. There's just too many holes in the favor theory.

The kid was ranked in the mid-terms and then fell off the map in the final rankings. It is quite possible the Rangers liked some traits that resulted in Kjellberg being ranked 74th at the halfway point.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't know what that means, if anything, but it does seem noteworthy.

It isn't noteworthy and doesn't mean anything. That's actually way more than I thought when I said it happens all the time, which put another way would have just read "it happens every year." If you slim it down to just the criteria you listed, it still happens all the time.

 

[nyr2k2]

It’s also silly to assume that the consensus rankings are really thay useful as you get later into the draft. It’s mostly niche work by the teams after the 4th round, and I doubt the consensus guys have seen these kids as much as each individual team.

We’ve dedicated way too much space to discussing this kid, and we’re severely overlooking the most likely reasons why they drafted him in the first place. It’s bizarre.

IDK, maybe. Seems like when we draft someone that "the consensus" had ranked higher, everyone gets all excited and shit. Then when we take someone "the consensus" had ranked lower, we talk about how they don't have the scouting knowledge on a particular player that our scouts do. It's like, whatever suits the narrative. No one ranked Simon Kjellberg? Terrible pick. Riley Hughes? Pronman (who we normally hate) had him 67 and everyone else had him 110-120! What a steal!

I see the narrative on Kjellberg slowly changing from the "this guys sucks, no services had him even mentioned, total nepotism pick" to "our scouts probably saw him more than the scouting services and journos so who cares if he was unranked." And that's cool, I just find it all amusing. And FWIW I'm not accusing anyone in particular of any of this. But, it's all plain as day.

 

[nyr2k2]

IDK, if Kjellberg was a favor, doesn't it seem more like they would've waited to take him as an over-ager, and/or waited longer to sign him to a pro contract or send him to the ECHL? (Which of course would probably have met with even more claims of nepotism because he was passed over multiple times.)

But it's not like the Rangers don't have a history of taking flyers on older prospects or signing them as undrafted free agents.

That's yet another reason I don't but into the theory of using a draft pick as a favor instead of legitimately thinking there is something there. There's just too many holes in the favor theory.

The kid was ranked in the mid-terms and then fell off the map in the final rankings. It is quite possible the Rangers liked some traits that resulted in Kjellberg being ranked 74th at the halfway point.

Maybe. I stated my position, I thought we were going to move on. Or should I respond point-by-point throughout the day? The post you quoted was just me providing some context for Tawnos' statement.

It isn't noteworthy and doesn't mean anything. That's actually way more than I thought when I said it happens all the time, which put another way would have just read "it happens every year." If you slim it down to just the criteria you listed, it still happens all the time.

The data I presented indicates it happens almost exclusively with guys on their second or third cycle through the draft process, not guys debuting in the draft. But if it doesn't mean anything, okay. You just made a comment and I pulled the data.

 

[Mac n Gs]

IDK, maybe. Seems like when we draft someone that "the consensus" had ranked higher, everyone gets all excited and ****. They when we take someone "the consensus" had drafted lower, we talk about how they don't have the scouting knowledge on a particular player that our scouts do. It's like, whatever suits the narrative. No one ranked Simon Kjellberg? Terrible pick. Riley Hughes? Pronman (who we normally hate) had him 67 and everyone else had him 110-120! What a steal!

I see the narrative on Kjellberg slowly changing from the "this guys sucks, no services had him even mentioned, total nepotism pick" to "our scouts probably saw him more than the scouting services and journos so who cares if he was unranked." And that's cool, I just find it all amusing. And FWIW I'm not accusing anyone in particular of any of this. But, it's all plain as day.

Has anyone seen him play? I’m going to guess I’ve seen him maybe once over the last few years and it was purely coincidental because I was watching for other prospects.

Same thing with Riley Hughes. Even Pronman’s evaluation seems off because the kid looked like a horrible skater in the little video that’s available of him, so idk how Pronman would rank him that high.

 

[nyr2k2]

Has anyone seen him play? I’m going to guess I’ve seen him maybe once over the last few years and it was purely coincidental because I was watching for other prospects.

Same thing with Riley Hughes. Even Pronman’s evaluation seems off because the kid looked like a horrible skater in the little video that’s available of him, so idk how Pronman would rank him that high.

If you go back to the draft thread (I believe), a Swedish poster dropped in to say he was really surprised Kjellberg was drafted because he's a terrible skater and the only thing he has in his favor is size. IIRC Ola just provided a brief report somewhere that was pretty "blah" on the kid. And Tobbe has said repeatedly that he's garbage. That's all I've seen or read.

 

[Ranger Ric]

If you look at the HF list of Traverse City invitees you will see no college players. The reason for that is that Traverse City is considered a professional tournament and any player in it would lose their college eligibility.

Hughes is not playing because he wants to go to college -- Northeastern -- next year and by playing in the tournament he would lose his eligibility.

College players can go to a professional team development camp if they pay their own way and expenses.

I don't make up these rules.

Maybe because Gropp played in like 3 of them in a row.

As for Hughes--he's very young--a 7th rounder and going to play in the BCHL. A comparable in that would be Steven Fogarty who also didn't play at Traverse in his draft year and also went to the BCHL.

As for Halverson--IMO the Rangers have kind of given up on him.....but he's also played two full years as a pro and the limit I believe is one.

I'd rather most of the players were are prospects but I don't mind the Rangers taking a look at some unsigned CHL, College or European kids.

 

[Tawnos]

The data I presented indicates it happens almost exclusively with guys on their second or third cycle through the draft process, not guys debuting in the draft. But if it doesn't mean anything, okay. You just made a comment and I pulled the data.

And I appreciate that, but I just think you're interpretation that it's "noteworthy" is off. Saying something happens all the time just means that you don't have to try very hard to find when it does happen. There were two this year. Probably in the same range for every other draft year. To me, that makes it not worth mentioning that he wasn't ranked. Something that happens every year isn't exactly unheard of and isn't a valid indictment of it.

He probably isn't going to turn into anything... I'd put his odds to make it as the same as every other 6th round pick this year and throughout history.

 

[Ranger Ric]

I realize we are in the dog days of summer and we are looking at anything Rangers hockey to discuss but I am still shocked at the controversy sparked about a sixth round draft pick. According to the Internet Hockey Data Base only five players picked in the 2013 sixth round have played any NHL games (including McKenzie Skapski) and only one -- Alan Quine -- has played more than 25 games. The chances that any sixth round pick has any impact in the Rangers system is not quite zero but close.

I understand the controversy and agree with the concern about the second round pick but a sixth round pick? We need a hockey fix very soon.

If you go back to the draft thread (I believe), a Swedish poster dropped in to say he was really surprised Kjellberg was drafted because he's a terrible skater and the only thing he has in his favor is size. IIRC Ola just provided a brief report somewhere that was pretty "blah" on the kid. And Tobbe has said repeatedly that he's garbage. That's all I've seen or read.

 

[Ola]

But here's the problem with that theory, it doesn't actually do the kid any favors.

It's not like baseball where he's going to play in the Rookie league. He's going to the USHL, and he's going to college. That would've happened with or without the Rangers because it was already in motion. Those teams didn't suddenly decide to draft him, or potentially offer him a scholarship because the Rangers drafted him. And the Rangers can't sign him while he's going that route, nor do they plan to sign him right now.

So there's no favor to be made by drafting the kid, and if they did, why would they have picked him in the 6th and not the 7th round?

Again, there's no precedent for this happening, it didn't happen earlier with a better prospect, there's no clear distinction as to how it benefits anyone, and it was done in a round that the Rangers take pretty seriously.

The Rangers have taken names such as Morgan Barron, Gabriel Fontaine, Mackenzie Skapski, Jesper Fast, Carl Hegelin, Marek Zidlicky, and Mike York in the sixth round of the last 20 or so years. That says nothing of the team's long-term legacy in that round, with names such as Darren Turcotte, Kjell Samuelsson, Tony Granato, Reijo Ruotsainen, and Tom Laidlaw, nor does it take into account players they found in rounds later than the 6th --- Lundqvist, Ronning, Prucha, Hollweg, and others.

I'd dare argue that the Rangers have one of, if not the most successful track record for finding talent in the 6th round over the years. It's a weird distinction, but the names are there.

Point being, I seriously doubt they are throwing away a sixth round pick on a favor to a scout. Now if the kid were 22, had no pro offers, and wanted to get into scouting or some other behind the scenes job, that is a possibility. But especially in today's NHL, no one is handing out a sixth round pick as a thank you note to a scout.

The Rangers like something in him. Now, whether or not they should, or whether or not we agree, that is the debate.

And like, Kjellberg have been a scout for us for what two years. It’s not like it’s Gorton’s kid.

 

[cwede]

Kjellberg coming over to USHL shows a commitment to the process,
He does a year or 2 in Jrs, a year or 3 in NCAA, and then lets see what we have then

but he aint coming to TC, why are we using this space for this ....

 

[cwede]

anyway i really came back in to comment that, as I'd mentioned before the list came out,
that NYR typically haven't sent many (non-goalie) kids with a full year NA pro behind them, especially a full year at AHL level,
but this year they include both Fontaine and Crawley, both spent all year w Pack but as depth guys,
and Chytil, but he's a real exception, since how many kids do NYR turn pro at 18 ...

as well as Leedahl and Nell, who played at lower pro levels too,

Nell and Lindqvist, turning 24 in Sept, may be among the oldest guys attending (there are always some ~24+, usually recent NCAA guys ...

but i like getting the group together early, aside from Schneider and Butler, it could be a young team in Hartford, depending on what NYR do with Holland, Beleskey, Kampfer

 

[kovazub94]

anyway i really came back in to comment that, as I'd mentioned before the list came out,
that NYR typically haven't sent many (non-goalie) kids with a full year NA pro behind them, especially a full year at AHL level,
but this year they include both Fontaine and Crawley, both spent all year w Pack but as depth guys,
and Chytil, but he's a real exception, since how many kids do NYR turn pro at 18 ...

as well as Leedahl and Nell, who played at lower pro levels too,

Nell and Lindqvist, turning 24 in Sept, may be among the oldest guys attending (there are always some ~24+, usually recent NCAA guys ...

but i like getting the group together early, aside from Schneider and Butler, it could be a young team in Hartford, depending on what NYR do with Holland, Beleskey, Kampfer

I hope these two forwards plus McCloud are in Hartford while Nieves and Lettieri are up with the Rangers.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

But here's the problem with that theory, it doesn't actually do the kid any favors.

It's not like baseball where he's going to play in the Rookie league. He's going to the USHL, and he's going to college. That would've happened with or without the Rangers because it was already in motion. Those teams didn't suddenly decide to draft him, or potentially offer him a scholarship because the Rangers drafted him. And the Rangers can't sign him while he's going that route, nor do they plan to sign him right now.

So there's no favor to be made by drafting the kid, and if they did, why would they have picked him in the 6th and not the 7th round?

Again, there's no precedent for this happening, it didn't happen earlier with a better prospect, there's no clear distinction as to how it benefits anyone, and it was done in a round that the Rangers take pretty seriously.

The Rangers have taken names such as Morgan Barron, Gabriel Fontaine, Mackenzie Skapski, Jesper Fast, Carl Hegelin, Marek Zidlicky, and Mike York in the sixth round of the last 20 or so years. That says nothing of the team's long-term legacy in that round, with names such as Darren Turcotte, Kjell Samuelsson, Tony Granato, Reijo Ruotsainen, and Tom Laidlaw, nor does it take into account players they found in rounds later than the 6th --- Lundqvist, Ronning, Prucha, Hollweg, and others.

I'd dare argue that the Rangers have one of, if not the most successful track record for finding talent in the 6th round over the years. It's a weird distinction, but the names are there.

Point being, I seriously doubt they are throwing away a sixth round pick on a favor to a scout. Now if the kid were 22, had no pro offers, and wanted to get into scouting or some other behind the scenes job, that is a possibility. But especially in today's NHL, no one is handing out a sixth round pick as a thank you note to a scout.

The Rangers like something in him. Now, whether or not they should, or whether or not we agree, that is the debate.

In this specific case I guarantee you that being a son of a scout played at least some role in them drafting him. Maybe it was purely a favor to a scout, maybe it was part favor part liking him, maybe it was that they paid more attention to him due to father asking or because they knew some interesting inside info from the father, or maybe they were simply betting on drafting somebody with NHL bloodlines they often do that. At the end he is young and has size, so you never know maybe something develops. When you have so many picks in the first 3 rounds I guess they figured they can draft an unranked son of a scout and think the fans wouldn't notice or wouldn't mind.

 

[Joey Bones]

Kjellberg coming over to USHL shows a commitment to the process,
He does a year or 2 in Jrs, a year or 3 in NCAA, and then lets see what we have then

but he aint coming to TC, why are we using this space for this ....

This is an interesting comment, though. Maybe the Rangers management knew he was coming over for NCAA hockey and thus selected him. Patric could've sold his son with this knowledge. IMO, I think the NCAA process was a solid move by him and gives NYR 5 years to see what they have in him. I honestly think it's an under appreciated move since there's a lot of nepotism behind the pick. Really curious to see how he does in Dubuque and get into the NCAA.

FWIW, Huska did the same thing the year he was drafted. Came over to the USHL (Green Bay), worked hard and got with UConn the following season.

Anyways, who's stoked to see some Ranger hockey in a week?!!

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

This is an interesting comment, though. Maybe the Rangers management knew he was coming over for NCAA hockey and thus selected him. Patric could've sold his son with this knowledge. IMO, I think the NCAA process was a solid move by him and gives NYR 5 years to see what they have in him. I honestly think it's an under appreciated move since there's a lot of nepotism behind the pick. Really curious to see how he does in Dubuque and get into the NCAA.

FWIW, Huska did the same thing the year he was drafted. Came over to the USHL (Green Bay), worked hard and got with UConn the following season.

Anyways, who's stoked to see some Ranger hockey in a week?!!

I think playing in Sweden would have been better for his development, but it is possible his team in Sweden did not want him back.

 

[nyr2k2]

This is an interesting comment, though. Maybe the Rangers management knew he was coming over for NCAA hockey and thus selected him. Patric could've sold his son with this knowledge. IMO, I think the NCAA process was a solid move by him and gives NYR 5 years to see what they have in him. I honestly think it's an under appreciated move since there's a lot of nepotism behind the pick. Really curious to see how he does in Dubuque and get into the NCAA.

FWIW, Huska did the same thing the year he was drafted. Came over to the USHL (Green Bay), worked hard and got with UConn the following season.

Anyways, who's stoked to see some Ranger hockey in a week?!!

Fogarty and Nanne did the same thing. Fogarty with Penticton in the BCHL and Nanne with Madison on the USHL. There are probably more, but my memory only goes back so far.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I think playing in Sweden would have been better for his development, but it is possible his team in Sweden did not want him back.

. . . based on what?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Nando Eggenberger.

Should have taken him on name alone.