GDT: Training Camp Discussion PART II

[ACC1224]

Marner just brings more to the table...Higher hockey IQ, overall skills better, plays pk, pp. Not the goal scorer like Matthews and that's just it. I see Matthews more one dimensional. I'm predicting Marner has more points over Matthews this year. Just my opinion.

That’s hardly a stretch. Marner is a points machine.

 

[Sypher04]

Marner just brings more to the table...Higher hockey IQ, overall skills better, plays pk, pp. Not the goal scorer like Matthews and that's just it. I see Matthews more one dimensional. I'm predicting Marner has more points over Matthews this year. Just my opinion.

respectfully disagree. Marner certainly may finish with more points but they’ll most likely be roughly similar. The gap in 34s shooting ability vs 16s is as significant as 16s playmaking is vs 34s. Matthews and marner both think the game at an elite level, just differently, and while Matthews does not play pk, he is the better defensive player of the two. He is definitely not one dimensional

 

[Oscar Peterson]

respectfully disagree. Marner certainly may finish with more points but they’ll most likely be roughly similar. The gap in 34s shooting ability vs 16s is as significant as 16s playmaking is vs 34s. Matthews and marner both think the game at an elite level, just differently, and while Matthews does not play pk, he is the better defensive player of the two. He is definitely not one dimensional

I don't think Marner even puts up more points than Matthews if they play the same number of games, imo Matthews is easily the better player and not sure how anyone who watches this team game in game out could disagree, and that's not to say Marner isn't a great player but Matthews is special and his goal scoring ability is on another level from anyone else in the modern era

 

[RoadWarrior]

SDA opened my eyes this pre-season and especially tonight. I was high on him when we drafted him, but I wasn’t nearly as high on him the last year or so.

He’s re-established himself in my eyes. The kid is going to play in the NHL. He has borderline elite vision and hands, and his attention to detail when skating back below the puck and battling were extremely good signs. I think his skating has improved as well. I think a season in the AHL is needed, but I’m back on the wagon. Kid is gonna play.

He's an odd player in that he plays better against better competition. It's almost like he was bored in the OHL.

The issue with SDA is that he's stuck in a top 6 role so he has tough competition break through in Toronto.

 

[zeke]

Marner just brings more to the table...Higher hockey IQ, overall skills better, plays pk, pp. Not the goal scorer like Matthews and that's just it. I see Matthews more one dimensional. I'm predicting Marner has more points over Matthews this year. Just my opinion.

PPG

16-17 Matthews .84 ---- Marner .79
17-18 Matthews 1.02 -- Marner .84
18-19 Matthews 1.07 -- Marner 1.15
19-20 Matthews 1.14 -- Marner 1.14
20-21 Matthews 1.27 -- Marner 1.22
Total Matthews 1.05 -- Marner 1.01

 

[ACC1224]

I guess we’ll expect a bunch of cuts today? Anyone know how many players are left in camp?

 

[Fogelhund]

Yes. this organization is ready to trade Holl, because they think so little of him, they protected him at the expansion draft. Do people even think this stuff through?

Kerfoot, Holl, these guys aren't going anywhere, and the team isn't worried about their cap. We need to see how this plays out, in terms of the players we might have to waive, and how they'll handle the cap. We have some of the best capologists in the league, and it's probable people are worked up about stuff we don't need to be.

 

[freshwind]

Anyone know how many players are left in camp?

Forwards (19): Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Kerfoot, Ritchie, Mikheyev, Kampf, Kase, Engvall, Bunting, Simmonds, Spezza, Brooks, Semyonov, Anderson, Gabriel, Amadio, Seney
Defense (10): Muzzin, Rielly, Brodie, Holl, Dermott, Sandin, Liljegren, Biega, Dahlstrom, Menell
Goalies (3): Mrazek, Campbell, Hutchinson (pending waivers), Woll (inj), Scott (inj)

 

[All Mod Cons]

Best player on the Leafs...thinking he has a big year.

I love Nylander. He's my favourite Leaf. Has been since his debut at the end of the 15/16 season. But I'll say that every single preseason we predict a massive jump from him and it hasn't happened yet. For 3 or 4 years we've said this.

And it's not that he can't because I know he can. He can be our best player. The problem is, out of the big 4, he always gets the short straw. His TOI/G is criminal and I have no faith it gets corrected.

 

[Sypher04]

I love Nylander. He's my favourite Leaf. Has been since his debut at the end of the 15/16 season. But I'll say that every single preseason we predict a massive jump from him and it hasn't happened yet. For 3 or 4 years we've said this.

And it's not that he can't because I know he can. He can be our best player. The problem is, out of the big 4, he always gets the short straw. His TOI/G is criminal and I have no faith it gets corrected.

yeah his ice time is a bit of a joke tbh

 

[showtime8]

Yes. this organization is ready to trade Holl, because they think so little of him, they protected him at the expansion draft. Do people even think this stuff through?

Kerfoot, Holl, these guys aren't going anywhere, and the team isn't worried about their cap. We need to see how this plays out, in terms of the players we might have to waive, and how they'll handle the cap. We have some of the best capologists in the league, and it's probable people are worked up about stuff we don't need to be.

You make a good point that the Leafs protected Holl in expansion, but I could realistically see the Leafs trading Kerfoot. Even though the team values versatility, I think there's enough supporting pieces in the organization that are cheaper and can produce a similar output to what Kerfoot is going to project to bring in the season. And the cap will always be an issue if you're right up against it. Even though they know the ins and outs of the cap, doesn't mean that they have or haven't done a good job at handling the cap.

 

[ACC1224]

Yes. this organization is ready to trade Holl, because they think so little of him, they protected him at the expansion draft. Do people even think this stuff through?

Kerfoot, Holl, these guys aren't going anywhere, and the team isn't worried about their cap. We need to see how this plays out, in terms of the players we might have to waive, and how they'll handle the cap. We have some of the best capologists in the league, and it's probable people are worked up about stuff we don't need to be.

Are you suggesting that protecting a player in the expansion draft now makes them untouchable?
Perhaps you should take your own advice and think things through.

I don't think they'll move Holl or Kerfoot but they are hardly 'untouchable'.

 

[Super Mega]

Kerfoot makes too much, he was never going to get selected over McCann and I question if he has any real value at all. He's on the edge of being a cap dump.

 

[123offtheglass]

Yes. this organization is ready to trade Holl, because they think so little of him, they protected him at the expansion draft. Do people even think this stuff through?

Kerfoot, Holl, these guys aren't going anywhere, and the team isn't worried about their cap. We need to see how this plays out, in terms of the players we might have to waive, and how they'll handle the cap. We have some of the best capologists in the league, and it's probable people are worked up about stuff we don't need to be.

Are you suggesting that protecting a player in the expansion draft now makes them untouchable?
Perhaps you should take your own advice and think things through.

I don't think they'll move Holl or Kerfoot but they are hardly 'untouchable'.

Why put quotations around 'untouchable' ? was never said.

 

[uncleben]

I guess we’ll expect a bunch of cuts today? Anyone know how many players are left in camp?

I added a list to the OP
Hopefully it's up-to-date and accurate (I can't imagine a player like Brennan Kapcheck or even Hellickson, is still around, but I haven't seen any news otherwise, for example. Maybe they're keeping a couple AHL bodies for practice)

 

[ACC1224]

I added a list to the OP
Hopefully it's up-to-date and accurate (I can't imagine a player like Brennan Kapcheck or even Hellickson, is still around, but I haven't seen any news otherwise, for example. Maybe they're keeping a couple AHL bodies for practice)

Thanks. Safe to assume that most that don't need waivers will be sent down?

 

[zeke]

I'm happy we're now at the point where we've gone from "LEAFS ARE DESPERATE FOR DEPTH!!!" all the way to "LEAFS MUST DUMP KERFOOT AND HOLL BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER GOOD DEPTH OPTIONS".

 

[Sypher04]

I'm happy we're now at the point where we've gone from "LEAFS ARE DESPERATE FOR DEPTH!!!" all the way to "LEAFS MUST DUMP KERFOOT AND HOLL BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER GOOD DEPTH OPTIONS".

True

 

[zeke]

I have to say I think Tavares kinda looks dialed in this preseason. More confident and decisive in his play.

 

[ottomaddox]

Yes. this organization is ready to trade Holl, because they think so little of him, they protected him at the expansion draft. Do people even think this stuff through?

Kerfoot, Holl, these guys aren't going anywhere, and the team isn't worried about their cap. We need to see how this plays out, in terms of the players we might have to waive, and how they'll handle the cap. We have some of the best capologists in the league, and it's probable people are worked up about stuff we don't need to be.

Agreed. I do think we might be in for a surprise. Not Holl or Kerf. Possibly Dermott, Simmonds, or Engvall. Just a hunch though.

 

[Blowfish]

PPG

16-17 Matthews .84 ---- Marner .79
17-18 Matthews 1.02 -- Marner .84
18-19 Matthews 1.07 -- Marner 1.15
19-20 Matthews 1.14 -- Marner 1.14
20-21 Matthews 1.27 -- Marner 1.22
Total Matthews 1.05 -- Marner 1.01

Interesting...

Marner is simply more versatile.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Interesting...

Marner is simply more versatile.

Offensively you could argue that, I think Matthews is the more versatile player overall though.

 

[Fogelhund]

Are you suggesting that protecting a player in the expansion draft now makes them untouchable?
Perhaps you should take your own advice and think things through.

I don't think they'll move Holl or Kerfoot but they are hardly 'untouchable'.

Nobody is 'untouchable'. Yes, protecting a player in the expansion draft, just a few short months ago, is a signal that the team isn't looking to move away from that player, without another substantial opportunity to replace them. No such opportunity exists.

Teams that take steps to protect players, which the Leafs have done with both Holl and Kerfoot, aren't planning to trade away said players. There has been no unexpected changes in Cap, in players available, or internal replacements since then, to cause a change in thoughts. This is basic logic, and I apologize if the statement of such is taken as a personal insult. Fans want changes, movements, and trades, that's normal, but these aren't the guys on the table.

I'm certainly not opposed to moving either Holl, or Kerfoot. I hope Lilly makes Holl expendable, but that's not proven to be the case yet. If he does, I'm happy to move Holl, but we need that insurance for now... absolutely need it. Even as depth for this year it's important.. maybe more of an offseason move. Kerfoot played very well in the playoffs for us and has good utility. If we could find a decent young 3C, at a cheaper Cap hit, I'm all in. Michael McLeod is a guy I'd look at. But for now, no such deal is available, and they aren't shopping Kerfoot.

 

[Blowfish]

Offensively you could argue that, I think Matthews is the more versatile player overall though.

Debatable but I just see more "Gretzky" like hockey IQ with Marner whereas Matthews is more Messier like.

 

[Fogelhund]

You make a good point that the Leafs protected Holl in expansion, but I could realistically see the Leafs trading Kerfoot. Even though the team values versatility, I think there's enough supporting pieces in the organization that are cheaper and can produce a similar output to what Kerfoot is going to project to bring in the season. And the cap will always be an issue if you're right up against it. Even though they know the ins and outs of the cap, doesn't mean that they have or haven't done a good job at handling the cap.

I could see Kerfoot being moved at some point, but it just isn't something that is going to happen before the season starts.