GDT: Training Camp Discussion PART II

[Isaac Nootin]

I just don't see what they see in Dermott. Hes 24 now and has shown next to no progress in years.

You say 24 like it's a bad thing, he's only 18 months older than Liljegren with 200+ NHL games played.

 

[Leafidelity]

I see a quite above average skillset in Dermott but the processing power and instincts aren't necessarily where you'd want them to be. For instance, the well noted spin-o-rama tendency in his own zone which burned the Leafs in Game 6 and then also reared its head in a pre-season game. What kind of thinking goes into such a high risk, zero reward play? Why aren't these natural skills put to better use in the offensive zone where they're appropriate? Just weird stuff like that.

He reminds me of a type of player a rebuilding club like Red Wings wouldn't mind taking a flyer on.

I think you're right that he's a tools/low toolbox type player. But hes gotten to the point in his career that he needs to have developed a niche. His breakouts and/or offense should be a lot more refined if he's still not strong enough to defend against guys in his own end. Again, like you said I think he's a good project for a thin blueline on a rebuilding team, but we're hoping for something more here.

 

[LeafSteel]

Liljegren fanboys whining contest already in full force.
I really hope he will make it as the 7th D at least though. And I think he will, Dubas favoring his own players is bullshit.

Rubbish post.

No one fanboying here. Every post I see in support of Liljegren is based off of what has actually transpired in training camp, team need, and how parts fit together.

I know it's easier for you just to ignore all of that and paint everyone with the same brush, being the true blue genuine Leafs fan that you are, but please try harder....

 

[Leafidelity]

You say 24 like it's a bad thing, he's only 18 months older than Liljegren with 200+ NHL games played.

Dermott has been allowed to develop in the NHL and to this point has amounted to a low event player. I think Liljegren could be more than that. His strong breakout passing alone is worth developing in the NHL.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Ma if/when Rielly leaves it'll probably be the saddest day for me as a leaf fan. I only became a leaf fan in the 2010/2011 season, and he along with Gardiner were the two guys I was most hyped/excited for. Rielly is a beautiful and great player. Going to suck seeing him walk but its understandable if money doesn't make sense and the pressure is too high with results not being there

I like Rielly a lot too but if he walks, it won't be because he can't handle the pressure or a lack of results. It will be because he likely wants Nurse/Hamilton/Werenski money and the Leafs don't have it. Nobody needs to be a bad guy in this equation (unless Dubas lets him walk for nothing - then there's a bad guy).

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

You say 24 like it's a bad thing, he's only 18 months older than Liljegren with 200+ NHL games played.

I would say he thinks Dermott has been given a lot of opportunity to flourish (Lily hasn't) and his development has most definitely stalled. He looks destined to be a borderline 3rd pairing player for(probably)ever.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Dermott has been allowed to develop in the NHL and to this point has amounted to a low event player. I think Liljegren could be more than that. His strong breakout passing alone is worth developing in the NHL.

Dermott earned his spot, he was "allowed" to develop in the NHL, he took it, and again, he's only 24, he's not done developing.

Being a low event player isn't a bad thing, at all.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

I would say he thinks Dermott has been given a lot of opportunity to flourish (Lily hasn't) and his development has most definitely stalled. He looks destined to be a borderline 3rd pairing player for(probably)ever.

He's been given bottom pairing minutes, which is exactly what Liljegren would get should he manage to make the Leafs.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Dermott earned his spot, he was "allowed" to develop in the NHL, he took it, and again, he's only 24, he's not done developing.

Being a low event player isn't a bad thing, at all.

Would you say his game has improved in the last 2 or 3 years?

 

[Leafidelity]

He's been given bottom pairing minutes, which is exactly what Liljegren would get should he manage to make the Leafs.

What I'm saying is that I think Liljegren would do more with those minutes than Dermott has, which is show he's a bottom pairing defenseman.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Would you say his game has improved in the last 2 or 3 years?

Yes.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

What I'm saying is that I think Liljegren would do more with those minutes than Dermott has, which is show he's a bottom pairing defenseman.

That's fine, and that's your belief. I personally feel that Dermott is currently the better of the 2. So I don't care about age, or opportunity, I'm interested in icing the best possible roster each night, whoever that is.

 

[Stephen]

I think you're right that he's a tools/low toolbox type player. But hes gotten to the point in his career that he needs to have developed a niche. His breakouts and/or offense should be a lot more refined if he's still not strong enough to defend against guys in his own end. Again, like you said I think he's a good project for a thin blueline on a rebuilding team, but we're hoping for something more here.

I don't think Dermott factors prominently in the Leafs long term plans but is a useful body on the depth chart for now. If he showed more of a higher ceiling you could see him taking more mentorship from a guy like T.J. Brodie who I think he has similar skills to and being groomed for a first pairing role (which he was drafted to fill).

 

[LeafSteel]

This organization has zero idea what it is doing when it comes to developing defenseman.

Glue Dermott to the 3rd pair with horrible partners for 4 years and never give him an extended opportunity in the top 4 despite exceeding expectations in a sheltered role. Debut Sandin at 19 only to yo-yo him for 2 years with no clear development plan and spoon-fed PP minutes. Refuse to dress Liljegren in his D+5 despite outperforming 2-3 other permanent players.

Zero consistency. Holl is the new Hyman of defenders and he'll be unquestionably attached to Muzzin's hip despite being exposed without him and underperforming in the playoffs. Dermott to me is the biggest example of clueless development. Never paired him with an adequate mentor, now he's going to be expected to mentor Sandin/Liljegren. Figure that one out.

Keefe's largely to blame. Loves to say these guys need to "figure it out" as if they can flip a switch and develop over night for him. They need opportunity and stable mentors - see Boston.

Did you go by a different Screen name? Never really saw you before, but you have over 3000 posts.

I enjoy reading your posts. They are always well thought out and not knee-jerk, chicken-little responses that clutter this Board.

Cheers.

 

[Stephen]

That's fine, and that's your belief. I personally feel that Dermott is currently the better of the 2. So I don't care about age, or opportunity, I'm interested in icing the best possible roster each night, whoever that is.

Managing your roster and balancing risk, reward and upside is a fine mix, so we can't really fall back on the best current roster this very moment. If Liljegren can be brought in and is a better D option than Dermott mid season, you need to take that risk. Developing a Liljegren early season could give us a better blueline by the time the playoffs start. It's 2021-22. We need to know what we have here.

 

[grapes55]

The development process has been pretty weird with Dermy/Lil/Sandin, you have Dermott who was given the chance to get his feet wet in the NHL...but never above the 3rd pair, Liljegren has been in the AHL basically the whole time and rode the bench in the few NHL games he got and then we've yo-yo'd Sandin up and down, given him PP time yet having the least experience??

Obviously development is different with different players but I don't really understand what the objective is here for our young D. We have some excellent steady defencemen where I think we can afford to implement young guys into the lineup and have them learn from our vets on the job while not being stuck with a 3rd pair the coach doesn't trust. It's still training camp so hopefully nothing has been set in stone yet.

 

[IPS]

Yes.

His game has improved but his minutes have gone down?

 

[Stephen]

The development process has been pretty weird with Dermy/Lil/Sandin, you have Dermott who was given the chance to get his feet wet in the NHL...but never above the 3rd pair, Liljegren has been in the AHL basically the whole time and rode the bench in the few NHL games he got and then we've yo-yo'd Sandin up and down, given him PP time yet having the least experience??

Obviously development is different with different players but I don't really understand what the objective is here for our young D. We have some excellent steady defencemen where I think we can afford to implement young guys into the lineup and have them learn from our vets on the job while not being stuck with a 3rd pair the coach doesn't trust. It's still training camp so hopefully nothing has been set in stone yet.

Dermott got the last promotion before the team started to climb in the standings and the team started importing better D from the outside. If there hadn't been a pandemic I'm sure Lily and Sandin would have gotten more reps with the big club over the past 2 seasons.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

His game has improved but his minutes have gone down?

Yes.

Minutes played is certainly a weird barometer when judging play, especially when you consider the high minute dmen we've brought in the last few years (Brodie, Muzzin).

 

[Mitch nylander]

When will we be making more cuts?

 

[Fogelhund]

Managing your roster and balancing risk, reward and upside is a fine mix, so we can't really fall back on the best current roster this very moment. If Liljegren can be brought in and is a better D option than Dermott mid season, you need to take that risk. Developing a Liljegren early season could give us a better blueline by the time the playoffs start. It's 2021-22. We need to know what we have here.

I agree with your post, but just a word of caution for the rest of Leafs nation. Liljegren starts out slow at new levels, taking time to adjust. Leafs fans are notoriously impatient, and will likely jump all over him for every mistake at first. It's going to take time, and if there is patience with him, we will be rewarded.

 

[Edgelord]

When will we be making more cuts?

Have they made any cuts yet?

 

[Stephen]

I agree with your post, but just a word of caution for the rest of Leafs nation. Liljegren starts out slow at new levels, taking time to adjust. Leafs fans are notoriously impatient, and will likely jump all over him for every mistake at first. It's going to take time, and if there is patience with him, we will be rewarded.

He's always looked serviceable in his brief call ups in the past. Not sure why people have been so down on him.

 

[TMLAM34]

He's always looked serviceable in his brief call ups in the past. Not sure why people have been so down on him.

Probably from all the hype he received heading into his draft year and now fans realize he’s probably at best a second pairing dman.

 

[Martin Skoula]

That's fine, and that's your belief. I personally feel that Dermott is currently the better of the 2. So I don't care about age, or opportunity, I'm interested in icing the best possible roster each night, whoever that is.

Having a better roster in October over an opportunity to have a much better roster in April seems short sighted.