GDT: Training Camp Discussion PART II

[IPS]

bringing them up and down all season at this stage in their careers isn't exactly good development either. Young defensemen typically need stability and familiarity

But hasn't it worked so well with Sandin so far?!?!

 

[Lauro]

Liljegren fanboys whining contest already in full force.
I really hope he will make it as the 7th D at least though. And I think he will, Dubas favoring his own players is bullshit.

 

[Cor]

Looks like Liljegren is going to be the odd man out despite looking better than all of Holl, Dermott, and Sandin. Unbelievable. Trade him to a team that will play him

 

[Clark4Ever]

If Liljegren doesn't make the team, he would be totally justified in asking for a trade.

 

[Apex Predator]

I think they keep him as a 7th and rotate him in and out. I always thought that would be the plan to start.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

When did Kopacka join the camp?

A week ago or so.

 

[LeafChief]

bringing them up and down all season at this stage in their careers isn't exactly good development either. Young defensemen typically need stability and familiarity

The Marlies play in Toronto. Paper transactions don't harm the player (other than potentially financially).

 

[Mess]

Its unfortunate, I get the offensive upside of Sandin is tantalizing but he's a worse defender than Lily, combined with Dermott being worse as a RD the 3rd pair is going to need to be heavily sheltered.

Instead of a strong defensive 3rd pair with modest offense we're going to run a 3rd pair that's a train wreck defensively to get a PP QB into the lineup.

Sandin and Dermott were drafted while Dubas was in the GM chair, while Liljegren was drafted by Lou Lam.

Dermott/Sandin are both LHD and Lil is a RHD.

Its generally always better to play Dmen on their strong shooting side, particularly for Dzone exits. When you put pressure on a Dman playing his offside he has to make more plays on his backhand which creates more turnovers in your own zone. I think in time this will play out that to add more strability to the 3rd pairing that it will be Dermott/Sandin that rotate in on the left, while Lil mans the right side.

 

[LeafSteel]

If Liljegren does not start the season, it will be such an idiotic decision.

Sandin-Dermott will get lit up like a Christmas tree.

Muzzin-Liljegren looked great together, and a pairing of Dermott-Holl works just fine. They were a top pairing on the Marlies during their Calder Cup run, and they are more than able to match up at against 2nd and 3rd lines.

Getting really tired of how Liljegren is being handled. I still think he has a higher ceiling than Holl but with this management group, I'm not optimistic Liljegren will realize it here, which is going to be another black mark for Management.

He has outplayed Sandin and Holl. Not sure what else he has to do to get an extended look here.

 

[IPS]

Looks like Liljegren is going to be the odd man out despite looking better than all of Holl, Dermott, and Sandin. Unbelievable. Trade him to a team that will play him

NO, don't trade him.. See what he actually is before you go dealing him.

22 years old and he's only played 13 NHL games.

Is it so damn imperative that Travis Dermott needs a regular roster spot? Good grief.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

But hasn't it worked so well with Sandin so far?!?!

their biggest (and only) success story of developing a defenseman is Justin Holl, and it took them finally giving him a chance in the top 4 with a good partner to get there. Dermott has been a bottom pairing defenseman his entire time with Toronto, and they haven't really even developed anyone else into an NHL defenseman.

It's not even that the Leafs have done a bad job with the defense under Dubas (objectively it is much improved), but if they don't want to develop defensive prospects properly they should trade them and get more established guys

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Robertson hasn’t done enough to make the team. He’s going to the Marlies. Going to a good Marlies team will pay dividends. I don’t mind him going there and leading a good team in scoring potentially.
He can go and play all faucets pp,pk and top line minutes and earn his call up in the new year maybe depending on his development curve

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

If Liljegren does not start the season, it will be such an idiotic decision.

Sandin-Dermott will get lit up like a Christmas tree.

Muzzin-Liljegren looked great together, and a pairing of Dermott-Holl works just fine. They were a top pairing on the Marlies during their Calder Cup run, and they are more than able to match up at against 2nd and 3rd lines.

Getting really tired of how Liljegren is being handled. I still think he has a higher ceiling than Holl but with this management group, I'm not optimistic Liljegren will realize it here, which is going to be another black mark for Management.

He has outplayed Sandin and Holl. Not sure what else he has to do to get an extended look here.

The biggest thing for me is that Muzzin can carry any pairing he is on, while Holl very much cannot, at least in the top 4.

That spot beside Muzzin is the perfect spot to groom a future top 4 shutdown defensemen and instead we're going back to the well and wasting that opportunity on a 31 year old plug and play guy.

Dermott-Holl would be a great 3rd pairing, I really don't see the harm in giving Sandin some more time with the Marlies and rolling those 6 D to start. It also keeps Sandin's contract negotiations fairly reasonable going into next offseason.

Liljegren can take the secondary PP duties with the way he moves the puck.

 

[IPS]

their biggest (and only) success story of developing a defenseman is Justin Holl, and it took them finally giving him a chance in the top 4 with a good partner to get there. Dermott has been a bottom pairing defenseman his entire time with Toronto, and they haven't really even developed anyone else into an NHL defenseman.

It's not even that the Leafs have done a bad job with the defense under Dubas (objectively it is much improved), but if they don't want to develop defensive prospects properly they should trade them and get more established guys

Well Mike Babcock was obviously the first major obstacle for Holl to break into the league but yeah, he played very little time on the bottom pair before being saddled with Muzzin.

We should be doing the exact same thing with Lilly.

 

[Cor]

NO, don't trade him.. See what he actually is before you go dealing him.

22 years old and he's only played 13 NHL games.

Is it so damn imperative that Travis Dermott needs a regular roster spot? Good grief.

I mean, my preferred option is him playing.

But that doesn't appear to be something that will happen.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If Liljegren does not start the season, it will be such an idiotic decision.

Sandin-Dermott will get lit up like a Christmas tree.

Muzzin-Liljegren looked great together, and a pairing of Dermott-Holl works just fine. They were a top pairing on the Marlies during their Calder Cup run, and they are more than able to match up at against 2nd and 3rd lines.

Getting really tired of how Liljegren is being handled. I still think he has a higher ceiling than Holl but with this management group, I'm not optimistic Liljegren will realize it here, which is going to be another black mark for Management.

He has outplayed Sandin and Holl. Not sure what else he has to do to get an extended look here.

Clearly, not have performance bonuses. That is literally the only reason I can think of him not getting in the lineup at this point.

I also have no idea why the Leafs are not trying him out on the PP. Liljegren was a better PP QB on the Marlies than Sandin ever was (at least in terms of production), and I am fairly sure he played a lot less PP on the Marlies than Sandin too. Sandin has more offensive zone IQ, which should help him in the long run, but right now, Liljegren's more developed skillset and puck-moving game is better than pretty much anything Sandin has to offer (at either end of the ice).

We need to stop spoon-feeding Sandin. We did not spoon-feed Liljegren and he has developed into an amazing two-way defenseman. At this point, with the stuff Sandin needs to work on, he is nothing more than a heavily-sheltered offensive defenseman at the NHL level... And even if Sandin heads towards being a 50 point defenseman, Liljegren is going to be much more valuable if he is able to continue heading down the path he is heading down (even if he only ends up as a 30-35 point defenseman). Quite frankly, I would be more than satisfied keeping Sandin in the AHL the entire year if there were no major injuries and he doesn't show a major improvement in his skating and defensive game. Cut out the entitled behaviour before it becomes a real issue.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

NO, don't trade him.. See what he actually is before you go dealing him.

22 years old and he's only played 13 NHL games.

Is it so damn imperative that Travis Dermott needs a regular roster spot? Good grief.

Trading Liljegren should be on the bottom of the consideration list, but literally any option that has Sandin out of the top 6 (even as a #7, which should be far down the list too) should be considered before sitting Dermott for any reason.

Sandin is waiver exempt, we don't have any kind of need for him outside of maybe being a #2 PP option on the back end, which can easily be filled by Liljegren (or Dermott or Muzzin), and he has a lot to work on. I don't even see why he is being seriously considered any more than Robertson is being considered for an NHL job right now (read: he is not being seriously considered).

 

[IPS]

Trading Liljegren should be on the bottom of the consideration list, but literally any option that has Sandin out of the top 6 (even as a #7, which should be far down the list too) should be considered before sitting Dermott for any reason.

Sandin is waiver exempt, we don't have any kind of need for him outside of maybe being a #2 PP option on the back end, which can easily be filled by Liljegren (or Dermott or Muzzin), and he has a lot to work on. I don't even see why he is being seriously considered any more than Robertson is being considered for an NHL job right now (read: he is not being seriously considered).

It's just a shame because we could have spent some of last season developing Sandin (and we had the perfect bottom pair D Bogo who was the perfect babysitter).

 

[Knies iT]

This organization has zero idea what it is doing when it comes to developing defenseman.

Glue Dermott to the 3rd pair with horrible partners for 4 years and never give him an extended opportunity in the top 4 despite exceeding expectations in a sheltered role. Debut Sandin at 19 only to yo-yo him for 2 years with no clear development plan and spoon-fed PP minutes. Refuse to dress Liljegren in his D+5 despite outperforming 2-3 other permanent players.

Zero consistency. Holl is the new Hyman of defenders and he'll be unquestionably attached to Muzzin's hip despite being exposed without him and underperforming in the playoffs. Dermott to me is the biggest example of clueless development. Never paired him with an adequate mentor, now he's going to be expected to mentor Sandin/Liljegren. Figure that one out.

Keefe's largely to blame. Loves to say these guys need to "figure it out" as if they can flip a switch and develop over night for him. They need opportunity and stable mentors - see Boston.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Liljegren fanboys whining contest already in full force.
I really hope he will make it as the 7th D at least though. And I think he will, Dubas favoring his own players is bullshit.

The coach is the one that decides the final roster. The only reason Sandin has got more opportunities is because we've had more injuries on the left side than we have on the right. Rielly and Muzzin have had injuries the last couple of years where as the likes of Brodie, Barrie and Bogosian have mostly been healthy.

I dont know why people are overreacting to the pairings right now. It doesn't mean its the final roster. They could still just be giving guys looks. Maybe they've already liked what Liljegren has brought and they're giving Sandin some more looks to see what he can do?

 

[Leafidelity]

I just don't see what they see in Dermott. Hes 24 now and has shown next to no progress in years.

Guy needlessly spins at the blueline every couple games and people think that's potential.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It's just a shame because we could have spent some of last season developing Sandin (and we had the perfect bottom pair D Bogo who was the perfect babysitter).

Or we could have kept him in the AHL where he would be playing more than maybe 15 minutes a night in a sheltered bottom pairing role when he is not even ready for that.

It would be one thing if it looked like Sandin did not have anything to gain at the AHL level anymore, and effectively a guy like Dermott is blocking him from continuing his development. That is simply not the case though... Sandin has a lot to learn at the AHL level and is not even ready for a babysitting job on the bottom pairing in the NHL. Maybe he gets there next year. Until then, we are forcing something that really does not need to be forced, and for what? A guy who downgrades Dermott in many regards?

IDK, maybe I am underthinking this, but I feel like the natural, logical, and ideal scenario would be integrating Liljegren into the lineup this year, and then perhaps moving Dermott next offseason and integrate Sandin at that point. That way, you only have one rookie getting used to a full time NHL gig rather than two. Additionally, one would hope Sandin improves his skating and defensive game enough to at least be a solid bottom pairing NHL defenseman in 12 months.

 

[Stephen]

I just don't see what they see in Dermott. Hes 24 now and has shown next to no progress in years.

I see a quite above average skillset in Dermott but the processing power and instincts aren't necessarily where you'd want them to be. For instance, the well noted spin-o-rama tendency in his own zone which burned the Leafs in Game 6 and then also reared its head in a pre-season game. What kind of thinking goes into such a high risk, zero reward play? Why aren't these natural skills put to better use in the offensive zone where they're appropriate? Just weird stuff like that.

He reminds me of a type of player a rebuilding club like Red Wings wouldn't mind taking a flyer on.

 

[Stephen]

Or we could have kept him in the AHL where he would be playing more than maybe 15 minutes a night in a sheltered bottom pairing role when he is not even ready for that.

It would be one thing if it looked like Sandin did not have anything to gain at the AHL level anymore, and effectively a guy like Dermott is blocking him from continuing his development. That is simply not the case though... Sandin has a lot to learn at the AHL level and is not even ready for a babysitting job on the bottom pairing in the NHL. Maybe he gets there next year. Until then, we are forcing something that really does not need to be forced, and for what? A guy who downgrades Dermott in many regards?

IDK, maybe I am underthinking this, but I feel like the natural, logical, and ideal scenario would be integrating Liljegren into the lineup this year, and then perhaps moving Dermott next offseason and integrate Sandin at that point. That way, you only have one rookie getting used to a full time NHL gig rather than two. Additionally, one would hope Sandin improves his skating and defensive game enough to at least be a solid bottom pairing NHL defenseman in 12 months.

I think you have to let Sandin and Liljegren have enough play time that they prove themselves as better options than Dermott, then ship Dermott out with confidence. Though watching a player like Menell, it seems like we have a guy with similar attributes to Dermott anyway.

 

[Sypher04]

Looks like Liljegren is going to be the odd man out despite looking better than all of Holl, Dermott, and Sandin. Unbelievable. Trade him to a team that will play him

I can’t say that I don’t understand why between him and Holl and dermott at least. Those 2 would be lost on waivers if not on the team, while liljegren is exempt as is sandin.

that said, I’d sandin is their guy, I still don’t trade liljegren. Injuries will happen and liljegren is far too valuable coming up, low cost, no waivers, to toss away.