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Training Camp and Preseason thread 2023

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haohmaru said:
Heard on Vince’s podcast - even strength over the years: Kreider and Zibanejad on the ice: 90 GF 65 GA

@Machinehead should like that.
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I don't love raw numbers for trying to display effectiveness since there is more that goes into how well a combo is working.

OTOH, if you dive deeper down into the stat ocean, the Rangers 2 best lines last year in terms of xGF% (minimum 100 min) were

1. Kreider-Zibanejad-Kakko (58.9%)
2. Kreider-Zibanejad-Vesey (58.6%)

I don't think that the coach should be married to the 2 together (because better combos may, and I believe do exist) but if we're going off of the most recent history, they've driven the best results.

Only 4 lines with 100 min played were over 50% with Vesey-Goodrow-Motte and the Kid line being the other 2.

Panarin-Trochek-Vesey were f***ing FIRE (82 minutes) with an xGF% of 74! It would not have stayed that high had they had gotten regular minutes down the stretch but if there is anything Gallant should have been arrested for, it was for not giving that trio a longer look. The star chasing at the deadline last year honestly did the group as a whole more harm than good, they were probably better suited adding different types of players for the lower portions of the lineup and hoping that Vesey didn't continue to beef all the opportunities that were being set up for him (at least they were being set up.)
 
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haohmaru said:
Heard on Vince’s podcast - even strength over the years: Kreider and Zibanejad on the ice: 90 GF 65 GA

@Machinehead should like that.
Click to expand...

Nice to hear but not surprising.

Kreider is a weird kind of "star." He doesn't score or drip skill like a star player, but the Rangers are consistently Team Canada when he's on the ice.

He's one of those guys that just does the right things and makes others better.

Zibanejad is a good foil to Kreider. He doesn't have eye-popping on-ice metrics on his own, but he does have incredible skill and can score a bunch.
 
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I'd hire Kneesovertoesguy as a consultant/trainer

Machinehead said:
Nice to hear but not surprising.

Kreider is a weird kind of "star." He doesn't score or drip skill like a star player, but the Rangers are consistently Team Canada when he's on the ice.

He's one of those guys that just does the right things and makes others better.

Zibanejad is a good foil to Kreider. He doesn't have eye-popping on-ice metrics on his own, but he does have incredible skill and can score a bunch.
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He's an elite OL. Doesn't get the recognition but is a major part of teams success.
 
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GoAwayPanarin said:
2021 I would think (the shortened season, not the 52 goal one.)

He was ass that year.
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Is that the only season with GF/GA negative? His analytics were still a positive. might be the only outlier. Also followed it up with a historic campaign.
 
duhmetreE said:
I'd hire Kneesovertoesguy

He's an elite OL. Doesn't get the recognition but is a major part of teams success.
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I like that comparison because you'll rarely see an OL make a huge hit. I know people want Kreider to toss opponents around, but he has such good positioning, skating, and sense of how to use his body that he wins battles just by existing. Running around is a waste of energy for him.
 
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duhmetreE said:
Is that the only season with GF/GA negative? His analytics were still a positive. might be the only outlier. Also followed it up with a historic campaign.
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No he had others when this team sucked balls but those years he was excellent relative to everyone else.

He was legitimately bad in 2021 but he played through some shit and was ultimately shut down when they fell out of it so I lean heavily towards that being a factor. He had 15 even strength points that "season" which IIRC was the lowest total of anyone who was in the top 9.
 
Machinehead said:
I don't see it. I often don't like the way this team plays, but I never saw it as a willingness issue.

The ECF run was all heart.
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Yup, even last year I dont' think it was lack of willingness, they just didn't seem to be on the same page. Doesn't matter how hard you're "trying" if it's impossible to get to that dumpin because it's not timed right.
 
Mandar said:
Terrible? (I assume thats what you were trying to spell). I'm not thinking that "terrible" means what you think it means....
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they actually are when they are on the same line together. Look at the advanced stats. People on here have been showing and telling everyone this since the beginning of last season. Krieder and zips should not be on a line together

GoAwayPanarin said:
I don't love raw numbers for trying to display effectiveness since there is more that goes into how well a combo is working.

OTOH, if you dive deeper down into the stat ocean, the Rangers 2 best lines last year in terms of xGF% (minimum 100 min) were

1. Kreider-Zibanejad-Kakko (58.9%)
2. Kreider-Zibanejad-Vesey (58.6%)

I don't think that the coach should be married to the 2 together (because better combos may, and I believe do exist) but if we're going off of the most recent history, they've driven the best results.

Only 4 lines with 100 min played were over 50% with Vesey-Goodrow-Motte and the Kid line being the other 2.

Panarin-Trochek-Vesey were f***ing FIRE (82 minutes) with an xGF% of 74! It would not have stayed that high had they had gotten regular minutes down the stretch but if there is anything Gallant should have been arrested for, it was for not giving that trio a longer look. The star chasing at the deadline last year honestly did the group as a whole more harm than good, they were probably better suited adding different types of players for the lower portions of the lineup and hoping that Vesey didn't continue to beef all the opportunities that were being set up for him (at least they were being set up.)
Click to expand...

is it not at all possible that all the other line combos sucked ass and in reality gallant putting the lines together was dogshit and all the lines should be put into a blender and find the right combos
 
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HockeyBasedNYC said:
This goes back to my point a few pages back about what this group needs.

They are an intelligent, introspective core that needs an articulate coach who can speak to them in that manner. Not someone who just barks orders or takes a laissez-faire approach. An actual brain that communicates outside of the hockey stuff, as well as concerning individual play, systems, etc.

Quinn was very articulate but was green in his role as a rookie coach. I think he quickly lost the room because his tactics were too black and white. And he overcommunicated. Lav has coached almost 1,600 games and understands what it takes to win it all. He spoke about that briefly. I think hell learn what this team responds to.

Its also important to note that he was gushing over the conversations he had with Trouba. I know everyone likes to poke fun at Trouba, but he is a very intelligent dude who cares. I could see him being very open and honest with Lav and that could prove to be a very valuable relationship that Lav taps throughout his tenure here, because hes the type of coach who will listen, absorb the information and put it to use when needed.

The days of the old school Keenan, Sutter and Babcock's are over. Players dont respond to the hard lining bark masters for long. Lav has got a nice blend of old school and new and I also think his assistants will be a great help as well. Im hoping.
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The main issue with David Quinn is that he was treating NHLers as if they were college players. The micro-managing, telling players to not stick-check on a breakaway and that sort of stuff, works when you have a group of 20-year olds of whom 10% will have a pro hockey career. You keep things simple. You focus on the basics etc.

But he did that stuff with actual NHLers. That's the biggest issue a guy like Kakko had with him, and he was very open about it too in Finnish media (newspapers and podcasts). Ryan Spooner elaborated on it in an interview as well, after he left.
 
Chalfdiggity3 said:
they actually are when they are on the same line together. Look at the advanced stats. People on here have been showing and telling everyone this since the beginning of last season. Krieder and zips should not be on a line together



is it not at all possible that all the other line combos sucked ass and in reality gallant putting the lines together was dogshit and all the lines should be put into a blender and find the right combos
Click to expand...
You are wrong, Kreider and Zibanejad are not terrible together. The numbers have been posted many times.
 
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Chalfdiggity3 said:
they actually are when they are on the same line together. Look at the advanced stats. People on here have been showing and telling everyone this since the beginning of last season. Krieder and zips should not be on a line together



is it not at all possible that all the other line combos sucked ass and in reality gallant putting the lines together was dogshit and all the lines should be put into a blender and find the right combos
Click to expand...

I think the take aways from looking at the numbers are, at least based off of LAST year:

- Kreider-Zib pretty much worked with who ever they played significant minutes with (this doesn't mean they should stay together, Kreider-Trocheck-Kane worked too and Kane was a MUCH harder player to carry 5v5 than Kakko or Vesey.) I've been cheerleading a Kreider-Trocheck-Kakko line but the facts are what they are. I think that would easily be our best line but finding line mates for the other centers that work would be tough (I'd probably go Laf-Zib-Wheeler and Panarin-Chytil-Vesey to start, but I can see both combos being problematic.)

- Gallant had an idea in his head of what he wanted the lines to be and the idea won out over what was actually the best on ice. Kreider-Zibanejad-Kakko and Panarin-Trocheck-Vesey were the best lines they had all season (going off of the numbers at least), neither of those lines stuck together because Gallant's desires won out over actual performance. He stuck with bad combos for way too long and basically tried to force them to work.

- Panarin and Zibanejad should never be a thing.
 
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DanielBrassard said:
I think kakko is going to have a big season. Not just because of that but he seems primed to break out.
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If that starts to look like the case, management better get the jump on locking him up to a long term extension while it's still team friendly towards the salary cap.

8x4.5 would be a solid deal for a prime middle 6 winger.
 
Fitzy said:
If that starts to look like the case, management better get the jump on locking him up to a long term extension while it's still team friendly towards the salary cap.

8x4.5 would be a solid deal for a prime middle 6 winger.
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If he breaks out for 55-65 points, he will get 8yx6m. That would still be an awesome deal.
 
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DanielBrassard said:
I think kakko is going to have a big season. Not just because of that but he seems primed to break out.
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Depends on attitude and conditioning. Getting to the middle and shooting would be a nice change.

Lavi will force him to go to the net. He should be getting a lot of clean up/dirty goal chances
 
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