GDT: Training Camp 2023

[Herby]

I’m pretty sure there are quotes out there that Blake’s plan was for the Kings to do a slow rebuild but the mutiny happened and he accelerated the timeline.. hence, Blake went with the slow burn in Byfield rather than the more pro ready player in Stutzle

Ot

There was an interview with Yanetti where he said that they had Byfield and Stutzle in the same tier. He said the decision on Byfield was based on the type of team they were trying to build (I’m paraphrasing), I’d therefore assumed it was about position, size. As I said elsewhere my issue was that if they wanted to win a cup with #8 and #11 then Stutzle was the right pick because he was more NHL ready… obviously #55 ’s injury and health compounded that. However it was a poor strategic decision no matter how the picks turn out long term.

I am going to believe this one because it does make some sense, but it’s really hard to believe someone who has told as many lies as Yanetti has, especially on that particular podcast. Yanetti is one of those people who is just so comfortable talking directly to someone and just straight up lying, it’s just crazy to me. If 2020 was the same thing as 2019, with Blake overriding the scouts not only will we not be told the truth, we will be fed a ridiculous lie to cover for it. Because no comment isn’t enough.

As you said, it still makes zero sense for a team that was going to try and win in a shortened window with 11 and 8 to take a 5-6 year project (as they now claim QB always was). My guess is they not only failed to realize just how good Stutzle was as a prospect, but they incorrectly projected what type of player QB would be and how long he would take. Nobody is taking a 5-6 year project at #2, and certainly not anyone trying to win in a 3-5 year window. When they say they were worried about the C position or wanted a bigger player they are probably being truthful. The 5-6 year project is just more BS they are pushing to excuse their mistakes.

 

[Herby]

Idk if this is 100% true.

Look at the Dallas stars. They still have Benn and Seguin (and Ryan Suter actually although of course he's not a long time Star). Did those guys prevent young players like Heiskanen, Hintz, Robertson, Johnston, etc from moving up the lineup, breaking out as elite players, and taking on prominent roles?? No, they didn't. Management / coaching saw the talent and made room.

The fact of the matter is that A) Kings prospects haven't taken that next step forward yet and B) Management has chosen to fill roster spots with proven NHL talent as opposed to letting prospects have a chance.

Let's assume both of those things weren't true - And guys like Byfield and Turcotte looked absolutely phenomenal and were living up to their draft hype. Plus let's also assume the Kings had never added Dubois, Danault, Fiala, etc. There would 1000000% still be roster spots / opportunity for young players to take on key top 6 roles on this team. And those players would either force guys like Kopitar and Doughty down the lineup or provide insane depth themselves - Instead of that depth coming from outside the organization and those young players lacking opportunity.


I'm a little embarrassed and owe you an apology. I'm sorry brother, my words were harsh and misguided. I misunderstood your meaning of the word 'stuffed' and the general point you were making.

So you were basically saying that King management should've ignored Kopitar and Doughty's pleas to add to the roster and instead let things ride with the young talent they had drafted. You weren't necessarily saying that those guys are the problem / those guys should've been traded.

I see your point now (I think). Part of me agrees with you and part of me also looks at this Kings roster and thinks damn, this is a REALLY good/deep squad that is going to be super fun to watch for the next couple years and could make some noise in the playoffs. I also stand by my point that if some of these young guys do take that next step forward, it makes the future outlook seem a LOT better.

Take Clarke for example.. If he's really as good as we hope he is, maybe he can force his way into the top 4 this year and push a guy like Roy down to the 3rd pair - Which would give the Kings insane defensive depth. And if he's as special offensively as he's advertised to be, maybe he even forces Doughty down to the 2nd PP unit this year or next. I guess we'll see. Anyways, enough boards for me for today. GKG

Danault and PLD are never on the roster if Byfield and Turcotte were what they expected on draft night. This is 100% a fact, no matter how many times Hoven wants to say otherwise. No team is shutting Top 5 picks out of roles to bring in veterans on big $$$ deals. Those signings were a direct result of what the team saw in those players.

If Turcotte had been Beniers caliber at UW and Byfield had been even PLD (a decent player at age 19) they would have been given those roles on ELC’s and the money used on those guys would have been used elsewhere.

Again, no team is drafting Top 5 picks and burying them and switching their positions if they believed the players weee ready. I just wish they had been more proactive about selling on them while they still had value, especially in the case of Turcotte.

 

[King'sPawn]

How can you be so certain though? Why would you stop at Yanetti? Wouldn’t you rather take a chance and get someone else as well? It’s nearly impossible to know how responsible Yanetti has been in all this. And when you consider the fact he’s a slick talker that doesn’t mean he’s going to come down hard on himself for some of the picks. I’d take the safe bet and can him as well. The kings have drafted duds during the most pivotal moment in recent history under his tenure. There’s something very rotten in his department and that stench is all over him as well whether he was an innocent bystander or not, he needs to go.

Well, Yannetti was part of the scouting leadership (along with Futa) who brought us great pieces under DL's guidance, many of whom helped the Kings win two cups, either by being on the roster or by trading them. That includes pieces like Martinez, Simmonds, Clifford, Schenn, Doughty, Voynov, Toffolli, Pearson, Kempe.

Where drafting has suffered the most is:
1) Futa being sidelined since Blake took over, then relieved of his duties altogether
2) Blake lacking a clear identity and direction for Yannetti and the scouting staff to identify the proper prospects

That's why I give Yannetti more leeway.

I am going to believe this one because it does make some sense, but it’s really hard to believe someone who has told as many lies as Yanetti has, especially on that particular podcast. Yanetti is one of those people who is just so comfortable talking directly to someone and just straight up lying, it’s just crazy to me. If 2020 was the same thing as 2019, with Blake overriding the scouts not only will we not be told the truth, we will be fed a ridiculous lie to cover for it. Because no comment isn’t enough.

I'm not sure if your dislike of Hoven or Yannetti affects your perception, but he's been pretty candid and transparent in many ways. He has said that ongoing proprietary issues, like their current processes, analytics, and current issues won't be disclosed. He's talked about where the Kings have made major mistakes during DL's reign (e.g. Cernak).

I don't fault him for not airing out the organization's dirty laundry or talking shit about his boss on a podcast. He probably doesn't want to embarrass a player like Byfield by saying "he sucked last year," especially since he's still in the organization.

He's not perfect, and times he'll throw shade at things other organizations do (he won't name the orgs, but he has admitted those attempted "gotcha" questions are a waste of time). But I don't see how trying to have measured answers about his employer is the sign of a car salesman.

 

[Herby]

Well, Yannetti was part of the scouting leadership (along with Futa) who brought us great pieces under DL's guidance, many of whom helped the Kings win two cups, either by being on the roster or by trading them. That includes pieces like Martinez, Simmonds, Clifford, Schenn, Doughty, Voynov, Toffolli, Pearson, Kempe.

Where drafting has suffered the most is:
1) Futa being sidelined since Blake took over, then relieved of his duties altogether
2) Blake lacking a clear identity and direction for Yannetti and the scouting staff to identify the proper prospects

That's why I give Yannetti more leeway.


I'm not sure if your dislike of Hoven or Yannetti affects your perception, but he's been pretty candid and transparent in many ways. He has said that ongoing proprietary issues, like their current processes, analytics, and current issues won't be disclosed. He's talked about where the Kings have made major mistakes during DL's reign (e.g. Cernak).

I don't fault him for not airing out the organization's dirty laundry or talking shit about his boss on a podcast. He probably doesn't want to embarrass a player like Byfield by saying "he sucked last year," especially since he's still in the organization.

He's not perfect, and times he'll throw shade at things other organizations do (he won't name the orgs, but he has admitted those attempted "gotcha" questions are a waste of time). But I don't see how trying to have measured answers about his employer is the sign of a car salesman.

He has told numerous lies on the podcast that any long time fan would know are lies. My issue with Hoven is not so much that he’s not straight up saying “well actually that’s not true” on the podcast. I know he has to walk a tight rope with this team and the access he has given. But continuing to amplify the lies after the guys leave the show is incredibly unprofessional and unnecessary and shows that he is not looking to discuss the truth but instead push the agenda of the Kings, so he’s a propaganda piece, hence the Pravda name. He doesn’t have to bury the guy, but he also doesn’t need to keep pushing the lies. Anyone who was a fan when DL took over knows they did not slow cook. Kopitar played zero AHL games, Doughty played 0 AHL games, Moller made the team at 19, Simmonds made the team at 20 playing no AHL games, Johnson was a regular at 20 playing 0 AHL games. Even Quick as a goaltender took over the starting role in his 2nd pro season with only 30 AHL games. But then he goes on there and says “we have always slow cooked, for as long as I have been here we slow cooked everyone, slow cooking won us 2 Stanley Cups” . Do you believe that statement is true based on factual evidence?

Do you really, honesty think that any team is knowingly using a #2 pick on a 5-6 year project? I know you know your shit and follow this stuff closely (not just the Kings), that is just not something that is happening around the league, for a variety of reasons. Even Blake on draft night said having that pick accelerated the rebuild. And now we are supposed to believe these guys who have lied before when they say “we knew all long this was a 5-6 year project” . Keep in mind this is the same group that also brought us the “nobody is ready right away, maybe only the McDavids”

And no, I don’t expect them to say QB has been a big disappointment, but I also don’t expect them to lie about everything. There is a vast amount of descriptions he could have used to describe how QB looked that falls somewhere between “he has been a disappointed” and “this is exactly what we expected”, come on KP the guy was taken as a C with a #2OA pick and he has 9 goals in 100 games and isn’t even playing C anymore, and they and Hoven tell us “he’s right on track” , come on that is absolutely ridiculous.

I just wish we had more balanced and professional team reporting the way many others around the league have. The Kings media presence is abysmal, especially with Rosen throwing in the towel.

And btw, I hope you don’t take my dislike and my views that Hoven is an unprofessional team propagandist as anything negative towards you. I think you do a wonderful job covering the teams prospects and I know you put in a lot of work at what you do, keep it up!

 

[Telos]

I would be in the middle on Kopitar and Doughty. Despite everything, it is hard to argue that Kopitar is still the #1 franchise center and Doughty is still the #1 franchise defenseman, and there is currently no one in the organization that is set to easily replace them; although, PLD has the credentials/opportunity to try.

Getting rid of them is beyond an all-or-nothing move, if you get rid of them and the team fails in any way shape or form you will be burned in effigy. A lot of us acted in irrational anger when Quick was traded which turned out to be both right and wrong, in the sense, that we traded him to fall in the first round and lose the goaltender we traded him for, but he was no longer really a viable option and trading him for anything we could use could be seen as helping the team. We could have obtained Gavrikov without the goalie swap though and kept him for the remainder of the season and yielded the exact same result.

Getting rid of Kopitar and/or Doughty would be much more amplified because their play hasn't deteriorated much. Quick was starting to suck, but as much as we whine and bitch about Doughty and Kopitar, they are easily our best options at their positions. Because they have that clout with the fanbase and are still performing, kicking them out for futures right when we are trying to compete would start a war and guarantee Blake's demise if the Kings don't convert a championship immediately.

There are just far more question marks to trying to perfectly run a team like it is a video game hockey manager selling all players perfectly before their decline and letting your young prospects just rise to the top like their algorithm said they would like you are omnisciently day trading at the stock market.

As for QB vs TS, the only thing I'll say is it wouldn't surprise me one bit if someone built a time machine, traveled back and had the Kings take TS and then returned back to our time only to find QB killing it in Ottawa and TS struggling and buried in LA. While, I think he'd have done probably a lot better here than QB did, I question if he would be in the same position that he is in Ottawa.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

If QB can pass Laf then will it hurt worse for the Rangers?

No, because Lafreniere was still the consensus #1 at the time of the draft. Even if a scout or two knew Lafrieniere was going to bust, he would’ve been easily and reasonably overruled.

Byfield and Stutzle was a legitimate toss up at the time of the draft, and we made the wrong decision. I think that’s more painful.

And I say that as a guy who strongly advocated for Byfield at #2.

 

[bland]

One of the things I would most like to see this year is the emergence of BOTH Spence and Clarke so that Doughty can be slid down from the top offensive role into more of a matchup unit and the Kings can claim a #1 pick for Roy at the deadline.

I love Matt Roy's game, but its about time that the Kings err on the upside instead of status quo.

 

[Bandit]

Kaliyev is still waiver exempt 1 more season

Blake will put him on waivers a year early. That’s how f***ing stupid he is.

 

[Herby]

One of the things I would most like to see this year is the emergence of BOTH Spence and Clarke so that Doughty can be slid down from the top offensive role into more of a matchup unit and the Kings can claim a #1 pick for Roy at the deadline.

I love Matt Roy's game, but its about time that the Kings err on the upside instead of status quo.

Yup, I said the same thing about Roy a couple of days ago.

It’s time to unload Roy for a goaltender that will give us a chance in the playoffs. We need to look at these players as assets, nothing personal against Roy, he’s a great player and seems like a great dude, but he’s a RHD and we have two of those guys ready and only 1 spot, and we are drawing dead in the playoffs with our goaltending.

But that would require this organization to trust Clarke to have an everyday NHL spot despite only having a few AHL games experience. It just doesn’t seem like that’s something they will do, with anyone. The Kings are going to let one of them (probably Clarke) play in the AHL, until there is an injury, but never giving him his own role. We will hope that Clarke doesn’t regress in the AHL this season while we try and win a SC with two backup caliber goaltenders. And then after the season we lose Roy for nothing and we still have no answer at goal going into next summer.

 

[EXTRAS]

How many points do you think Moore gets if he plays all 82?

 

[bland]

How many points do you think Moore gets if he plays all 82?

45

 

[King'sPawn]

He has told numerous lies on the podcast that any long time fan would know are lies. My issue with Hoven is not so much that he’s not straight up saying “well actually that’s not true” on the podcast. I know he has to walk a tight rope with this team and the access he has given. But continuing to amplify the lies after the guys leave the show is incredibly unprofessional and unnecessary and shows that he is not looking to discuss the truth but instead push the agenda of the Kings, so he’s a propaganda piece, hence the Pravda name. He doesn’t have to bury the guy, but he also doesn’t need to keep pushing the lies. Anyone who was a fan when DL took over knows they did not slow cook. Kopitar played zero AHL games, Doughty played 0 AHL games, Moller made the team at 19, Simmonds made the team at 20 playing no AHL games, Johnson was a regular at 20 playing 0 AHL games. Even Quick as a goaltender took over the starting role in his 2nd pro season with only 30 AHL games. But then he goes on there and says “we have always slow cooked, for as long as I have been here we slow cooked everyone, slow cooking won us 2 Stanley Cups” . Do you believe that statement is true based on factual evidence?

Do you really, honesty think that any team is knowingly using a #2 pick on a 5-6 year project? I know you know your shit and follow this stuff closely (not just the Kings), that is just not something that is happening around the league, for a variety of reasons. Even Blake on draft night said having that pick accelerated the rebuild. And now we are supposed to believe these guys who have lied before when they say “we knew all long this was a 5-6 year project” . Keep in mind this is the same group that also brought us the “nobody is ready right away, maybe only the McDavids”

And no, I don’t expect them to say QB has been a big disappointment, but I also don’t expect them to lie about everything. There is a vast amount of descriptions he could have used to describe how QB looked that falls somewhere between “he has been a disappointed” and “this is exactly what we expected”, come on KP the guy was taken as a C with a #2OA pick and he has 9 goals in 100 games and isn’t even playing C anymore, and they and Hoven tell us “he’s right on track” , come on that is absolutely ridiculous.

I just wish we had more balanced and professional team reporting the way many others around the league have. The Kings media presence is abysmal, especially with Rosen throwing in the towel.

And btw, I hope you don’t take my dislike and my views that Hoven is an unprofessional team propagandist as anything negative towards you. I think you do a wonderful job covering the teams prospects and I know you put in a lot of work at what you do, keep it up!

I appreciate the reassurance. I know you'd call me out if it was something I did, so I never mistook your ill feelings towards Hoven as anything I did.

Regarding your question, no, I don't think they took Byfield expecting him to hit his stride in 5-6 years. While I can't read minds, I'm guessing they knew Byfield wouldn't yield an immediate return. But maybe they wouldn't see him hit his peak until 5-6 years, but still expecting more out of him along the process. I inherently don't find that dishonest.

But again, I think Yannetti is constrained by Blake's lack of a clear vision. He picked a player whose peak would take longer to hit while the team is trying to win now, when Blake himself said he wants to win a cup in 5-6 years.

I am sure, internally, there have been bigger expectations on Byfield within the organization. But with this old mentality of "making prospects *earn it*" I think there's just a disconnect between drafting and development.

The same development team charged with developing grinders and defensive forwards during DL's tenure are now expected to develop high-skill scoring forwards like Kaliyev, Vilardi, etc. They changed the curriculum but kept the teachers.

And I think Yannetti is being mindful of his responses given those responses. I just don't see it as lying the same way you do.

 

[johnjm22]

You mean like this? Click on the links to see the love.

Rumor: - 2022-2023 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: The Search for a 2C

Felt like that movie, Animal House and Up Periscope got played at least monthly while underway on my old boat.

forums.hfboards.com

Rumor: - 2022-2023 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: The Search for a 2C

Felt like that movie, Animal House and Up Periscope got played at least monthly while underway on my old boat.

forums.hfboards.com

GDT: - Game 15: Avalanche @ Hurricanes - This is a GDT - 5PM

Hey Englund

forums.hfboards.com

All of these are from early in the season.

The story on Englund was that he started out rough and got better as the season went on.

See the comments from later in the season when he was traded:

Confirmed Trade: - [COL/CHI] Jack Johnson for Andreas Englund

forums.hfboards.com

Confirmed Trade: - [COL/CHI] Jack Johnson for Andreas Englund

forums.hfboards.com

Confirmed Trade: - [COL/CHI] Jack Johnson for Andreas Englund

forums.hfboards.com

You can read through that thread. They're pretty positive on him.

Here's a thread on reddit about LA signing him. Here again you can see Avs fans that commented are positive on him:

The only 'favorable views' I stumble upon are when they're like "ugh, might as well have Englund" instead of Jack Johnson. Yeah, I'd rather have Christian Wolanin over the corpse of Edler, too, doesn't mean I like it. Hell most of the time they far prefer MacDermid.

Oh, bonus coverage so you see it's not just cherry picked posts

View attachment 748205

I don't care about 'favorable defensive impacts' in sheltered minutes on a team tanking when the guy visibly sucks everywhere else, if anything those metrics are flattering because of his situation, not in spite of it, and they're the ONLY thing you can use in support of him. Damn near everything eye test, posted on this forum or elsewhere is about as negative as you can get. I'm not impressed by toughness that can't play. May as well have hung on to MacDermid, at least the players here like him, instead of picking up the guy that headhunted one of your top prospects. Dumbass signing by Blake that will continue to pay negative dividends.

No offense, but those type of GDT comments don't mean much. If you went through our GDT's you'd think Kopitar and Doughty were terrible hockey players.

By the the sound of it, Englund held down the bottom pair pretty well as the season went on. He brings some size/toughness but doesn't appear to take bad penalties. He has size/mobility. There's some upside there. Give it a chance. It could end up being a sneaky good signing.

 

[BaileyFan]

One of the things I would most like to see this year is the emergence of BOTH Spence and Clarke so that Doughty can be slid down from the top offensive role into more of a matchup unit and the Kings can claim a #1 pick for Roy at the deadline.

I love Matt Roy's game, but its about time that the Kings err on the upside instead of status quo.

The only way I see them walking away from Roy is if he or Doughty has a lengthy injury this year allowing Clarke or Spence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can handle 2nd pairing minutes. Otherwise, they can't afford to part with reliable NHLers while they're so married to the idea of winning a Cup with/for Kopi and Doughty. IMO the likeliest scenario is Blake resigns Roy to a big extension midseason and Spence is either traded as part of a package next summer or waived depending on how he performs in limited 3rd pair duty.

 

[chris kontos]

Blake will put him on waivers a year early. That’s how f***ing stupid he is.

ouch.
i still think the best outcome for kaliyev would be to be traded. and i write this as a huge arty supporter. on top of the idiocy toward him regarding his useage by my boy todd, he's starting to look lost in the defense first system (i guess thats what the're trying to do systematically)

 

[Fishhead]

Right now I think the odds of Roy being retained are fairly low, based on the salary he will command. He should be asking for at least 5, which would price him out for the Kings based on needs.

I know the narrative is that the Kings would rather retain guys like RV and Roy and not play the youth, but I would be shocked if that happened. They would basically have to sign for minimal raises, which they won't (and shouldn't) as this will be their last big contracts. Because they made the Fiala and PLD moves almost all decisions going forward will be cap driven.

 

[chris kontos]

Yeah
They probably dont need roy

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

I know Roy and Gavrikov have been great together and not sure if it's already been discussed, but what do people think about the following:

Anderson - Doughty
Gavrikov - Clarke
Roy - Spence

To me (and it seems like most others), those are pretty clearly our 6 best defensemen - And the Kings are clearly trying to 'win now' so they should play their best players. I don't love having anyone play on their off side but if someone has to I'd rather it be a guy like Roy who is consistently excellent defensively as opposed to Clarke or Spence who are still trying to settle in (especially defensively).

It also provides some really good balance throughout the pairings since you'd essentially have a defensive/shut down guy paired with a more offensive puck mover on each pair.

And the depth would be pretty fantastic too. Having a guy like Roy on your 3rd pair is excellent.

Main problem I see is that Spence wouldn't get powerplay time in this scenario but it just feels like Clarke should definitely play and this seems like the best way to make that happen?

 

[Bandit]

ouch.
i still think the best outcome for kaliyev would be to be traded. and i write this as a huge arty supporter. on top of the idiocy toward him regarding his useage by my boy todd, he's starting to look lost in the defense first system (i guess thats what the're trying to do systematically)

Yeah, sucks but it is what it is.

 

[Sol]

Right now I think the odds of Roy being retained are fairly low, based on the salary he will command. He should be asking for at least 5, which would price him out for the Kings based on needs.

I know the narrative is that the Kings would rather retain guys like RV and Roy and not play the youth, but I would be shocked if that happened. They would basically have to sign for minimal raises, which they won't (and shouldn't) as this will be their last big contracts. Because they made the Fiala and PLD moves almost all decisions going forward will be cap driven.

I think Roy has room to grow still into his game. If the Kings could move Doughty that’d be better imo

 

[SettlementRichie10]

One of the things I would most like to see this year is the emergence of BOTH Spence and Clarke so that Doughty can be slid down from the top offensive role into more of a matchup unit and the Kings can claim a #1 pick for Roy at the deadline.

I love Matt Roy's game, but its about time that the Kings err on the upside instead of status quo.

I’ve been saying this last year. The best moneyball approach to the blueline is to trade Roy for assets, clear his cap space, and ice both Spence and Clarke.

There’s obviously risk but it’s a risk worth taking when your cap is this f***ed.

 

[YP44]

I’ve been saying this last year. The best moneyball approach to the blueline is to trade Roy for assets, clear his cap space, and ice both Spence and Clarke.

There’s obviously risk but it’s a risk worth taking when your cap is this f***ed.

moving roy would have opened up enough space to keep to healthy scratches as well. So we may not have lost Fagemo

 

[Kurrilino]

In what universe are the Kings BETTER off without Kopitar???????? That is a certifiably insane take lol.



Y'all are ungrateful AF with some of the s**t you throw out there on these forums. Figure it tf out and put a little respect on the names of players that brought this city not one but TWO stanley cups - The only stanley cups this team has ever won by the way.

Oh my.. someone got offended.
I didn't know you have an account here, Anze

But while you are here, let me explain something to you.

The NHL is a professional sports league where the target is to win the Stanley Cup every year.
We are all grateful what you have done for the organization to the point where you brought home 2 cups.
The issue people have here is what happened right after where you asked for a salary of a NHL top center but delivered shit while blocking salary to upgrade the team.
If by chance Drew is sitting beside you on that park bench, feeding ducks, tell him that he is far worse, not only copying the above issues but also cry to the management to give unreasonable contracts to your also useless buddies.
We fans would like not to have another season where playoff teams mop the floor with you.

Since we already figured out that the management is reckless and irresponsible, please do the right thing and become a full time duck feeder at the pond.
This takes the option away from the management to build a team around you with even older and worse players than you.

Appreciate you understanding and cooperation in that matter

 

[johnjm22]

I don't think there's any way Spence or Clarke could be overall as effective of a defenseman as Matt Roy this season.

Arvidsson would make more sense to move IMO.

 

[bland]

So with Kaliyev having a hearing for his knee on knee, what impact could a potential suspension have on the cap for opening night?