GDT: Training Camp 2023

[KingsOfCali25]

Kings have lost or traded Faber, Vilardi, Kupari, and Fagemo for a grand total of two first round exits.

Plus PLD and Fiala. You can't forget about those guys

 

[Herby]

Since Blake took over in 2017, here's a look at our first and second round picks:

2017
1.11: Vilardi (Off the roster)
2.41: JAD (Bust)

2018
1.20: Kupari (Off the roster)
2.51: Thomas (Injuries? Bust?)

2019
1.05: Turcotte (Bust)
1.22: Bjornfot (Bust)
2.33: Kaliyev (TBD, I'm not optimistic)
2.50: Fagemo (Off the roster)

2020
1.02: Byfield (TBD, also not optimistic)
2.35: Grans (Off the roster)
2.45: Faber (Off the roster)

2021
1.08: Clarke (TBD)
2.42: Pinelli (TBD)
2.59: Helenius (TBD)

2022
2.41: Hughes (TBD, but have we ever drafted a second round pick with less fanfare than this guy?)

2023
2.54: Dvorak (TBD, but see above)

The fact is, we have a single pick that we've developed: Mikey Anderson, 4th round, 2017. Spence and Laferriere are looking like they could be decent picks as well.

Should we talk about trades? Let's do it. Blake's not afraid to make trades. He made some big splashes with Fiala and Dubois. But let's take a look at a few of the other ones. We ultimately traded Muzzin for a fourth liner (Grundstrom), a third pairing defenseman (Bjornfot) and a second round pick (Durzi). We traded Tanner Pearson for Carl Hagelin, who we then traded for nothing (Lukas Parik). We traded Alec Martinez for basically nothing (ultimately, Francesco Pinelli and Lias Andersson). We retained 50% on Jeff Carter for literally nothing. And we traded the best player in franchise history (Jonathan Quick) for no reason, only for him to win a cup with our biggest rival. I'm not saying teams need to win every trade, but I don't think we should be consistently losing them.

It’s tough to look at.

Give him credit for Vilardi who they did flip in a trade for an important player a year after he looked to be skating on thin ice.

And give him credit for Faber (his best value pick), Faber will be a force in this league for a long time and is a future captain. And they got a good player for him.

But there are some huge whiffs in there, the two big ones in particular that are just crippling to the present and the future. And before anyone gets mad and says “way to scapegoat the kids” (like someone always does). It’s not personally blaming Byfield and Turcotte, it's not their fault, it's just acknowledging the results from two significant assets that the Kings have gotten have produced historically poor returns, that is a fact.

But these guys don't get it, especially with the AHL/development part. They are like the guy in your FF league that goes runningback with his first 3 picks every year, even though nobody else does that, then they say other people are just lucky with their picks. Emerson saying "Thank God we were able to get him down there" in regards to Byfield and the AHL, when Byfield has been one of the least productive Top 3 picks this century is just classic Kings lack of awareness. Do you think these guys pay any attention to what is working around the league for other teams? They either aren't paying attention at all, or they are, and just think everyone else is doing it wrong, despite the results clearly showing otherwise. I don't know the true answer, but it's like what Arthur C Clarke said about whether there life in the universe, "Both answers are terrifying"

My guess is, judging of Yannetti's answer on Pravda where he kind of took shots at Ottawa and Detroit, is they are aware of how others develop, they just think everyone else is wrong.

Ppl who follow the Reign closer than I do, what has been the biggest success story? Anderson was handled more traditionally, two years of college, no AHL games as a teenager, 50 AHL games (not a ton for a 4th rounder). Why can't they take this path with more guys? Let them dominate college, juniors, Europe and bring them over at 20 or 21 when they are closer to the NHL.

Every single high pick who has spent significant time on the Reign has been disappointing relative to their draft positioning.

 

[BigKing]

The Kings have largely seen their entire prized prospect rebuild lose anywhere from moderate to significant value from time of draft to the current, and funny enough one of the few who actually gained value was traded before ever making the NHL.

How do you claim you are contending, despite having a gaping hole in goal and issues on LD and then just hoard 22-24 year olds, despite having so many NHL’ers signed to 3+ year deals.

I wonder if the Kings tried to include prospects instead of 1sts in the Fiala and Gavrikov deals but the teams wanted nothing to do with them. With the way the Kings are constructed now it would be better to have 18 or 19 year olds than 22 and 23 year olds. At least Kopitar, Danault, Doughty will be nearing the end of their time with the Kings when those guys are waiver eligible.

We will be in this same spot next year with Turcotte and perhaps even Kaliyev.

You know we've been talking about these guys like stocks and have been heavy on "sell" when it became clear that a lot of these guys weren't going to get playing time.

February 11th, 2020. Wheeler puts the Kings at #1 for top prospect pool in the league. Most on here freak out and crown Blake a genius because he inherited a poor prospect pool and was now sitting on, supposedly, the top pool in the league. Here is the Top 10 list of players that put the pool at #1:

Turcotte
Kaliyev
Fagemo
Vilardi
Kupari
Thomas
Bjornfot
Grundstrom
Clague
Spence

JAD and Mikey were 11 and 12 with Durzi at #14. Best player on this list so far is Anderson unless you want to argue Vilardi. Hope remains for Kaliyev and Spence, especially, but the rest of the list is rough.

Wheeler has the Kings still at #1 for his 2021 rankings. Byfield takes the top spot with Vilardi staying at #4 because Fagemo drops to 7. Coming in at #s 5 and 6 are Madden and Grans. Spence drops to 12 with #s 17,18 and 19 comprised of Mikey, Faber and Durzi. Laferriere was an HM and he's the frothiest prospect on the board right now.

So what does this prove? Well, it doesn't look great in hindsight. It also supports what I've been saying since these lists were made that there are going to be busts at the top and what is important is that some of the names that aren't driving the ranking wind up being hits. In this case, Anderson, Faber and Durzi jump out along with Spence.

Lombardi had a top ranked pool with Doughty only being part of the list once since he was an instant graduate. Bernier, Purcell, Hickey, Teubert, Moller etc...were driving the list while Martinez and King weren't. Totally whiffing on Hickey and Teubert while mostly whiffing on Bernier is fine when you draft a Drew Doughty. Blake's Doughty pick is Byfield: he'll never be as impactful. Not that Byfield is in total bust territory, but I think most will be happy with 55 points a season because there are definite bust concerns.

Clarke is pretty much our only hope at this point for a superstar level player to come out of Blake's tank. He said he accelerated the rebuild because of the Byfield pick but Byfield hasn't panned out and here we are with veterans all over the NHL lineup and these highly rated prospects dying on the vine. Age old question of bad picks or bad development. Probably a bit of both going on here but regardless of which one it is, the returns from this tank job prospect pool are pathetic so far.

 

[kingsfan28]

Kings have lost or traded Faber, Vilardi, Kupari, and Fagemo for a grand total of two first round exits.

Let's not get carried away here. Only the Faber trade has any impact on the previous playoff result, none of the others has.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Plus PLD and Fiala. You can't forget about those guys

Correction - PLD and Fiala plus two first round exits.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The problem with resigning Kopitar is that the $7mm cap hit is going to constrain other moves. Patrice Bergeron played last year for a $2.5mm cap hit. That's because his main priority was winning another Cup. Kopitar was looking to maximize the earnings he could make over his career. Bergeron has career earnings of $96mm. Kopitar is already over $120mm before we add in the additional $14mm extension. In my opinion, that is gross selfishness on AK's part, and we should have kindly shown him the door for anything over $5mm. Is his production worth it? Probably, but does it get us closer to the Cup? Highly doubtful.

Kopitar has 2 Cups, Bergeron with the 1.

 

[Herby]

The thing is, with Kopitar and Doughty, they are the type of players you can't expect to develop a player into. So, I don't think you trade them. And trying to tank doesn't work either if you can't develop young talent into top end talent.

If a player like Fiala is what they wanted, they should have tried to draft and develop a player like Fiala and try a controlled cost. Same with PLD. All these players who the Kings are trading assets for are not EASY to obtain, but they are achievable if put into the right environment to grow. Then you trade assets to supplement the core you build, or to get more picks to try and develop the talent.

In the cap era, it's vital to find ways to have cost-controlled talent. Because trading assets for and extending mercenaries is what we're seeing right now.

Yup, this is why its so ridiculous when people on this board, or people like Hoven talk about "winning summers" or "the rebuild is way ahead of schedule"

Any team in the league can trade multiple 1st rounders, plus arguably their best prospect (Faber) for good but not great pieces making $7-8m and offer Danault more $$ to sign than anyone else, and become middle of the pack playoff teams. Most teams choose not to, because your odds are much better to build a winner by actually drafting difference making players, something Blake and Yannetti have been unable to do despite having significant draft capital, especially in 2019 and 2020.

Kopitar has 2 Cups, Bergeron with the 1.

Please tell me this is sarcasm that I have missed, because it has nothing to do with the valid point he is making.

This sounds like something Axl would say.

 

[BigKing]

Kings have lost or traded Faber, Vilardi, Kupari, and Fagemo for a grand total of two first round exits.

The LA Kings have not won a playoff series since 2014. Blake has overseen five playoff game victories in six total seasons with his #1C and #1D being guys drafted in 2005 and 2008, respectively, and his top sniper being drafted in 2014.

On top of all this, he has built a team and culture that has to be the softest in the entire NHL, at least out of teams that have made the playoffs the past couple of seasons.

Lombardi didn't do shit until he did shit so it can all flip on a dime but, c'mon now, it is hard looking at this roster and expecting it to work. That's why I've been saying that Clarke needs to be super legit to have this team rise to another level, that level being a team that can win a playoff series against one of Vegas or Edmonton.

 

[kilowatt]

But these guys don't get it, especially with the AHL/development part. They are like the guy in your FF league that goes runningback with his first 3 picks every year, even though nobody else does that, then they say other people are just lucky with their picks. Emerson saying "Thank God we were able to get him down there" in regards to Byfield and the AHL, when Byfield has been one of the least productive Top 3 picks this century is just classic Kings lack of awareness. Do you think these guys pay any attention to what is working around the league for other teams? They either aren't paying attention at all, or they are, and just think everyone else is doing it wrong, despite the results clearly showing otherwise. I don't know the true answer, but it's like what Arthur C Clarke said about whether there life in the universe, "Both answers are terrifying"

I wanted to see if this was correct, so I took the top three draft picks for each draft from 2004 through 2021 and looked at points per game.

Two important notes: 1. I basically see the Ovechkin and Crosby drafts as the "turning point" for the modern era of the NHL, so that's why I'm starting there rather than 2000, and 2. two of the top three picks from 2022 haven't played an NHL game yet (only Slafkofsky, no Nemec or Cooley), so I'm not including those draft years.

Of the 54 players drafted in the top three picks since 2004, only 5 players have a worse points per game. All 5 of those players are defensemen. Those players are: Cam Barker, Ryan Murray, Jack Johnson, Zach Bogosian, and Erik Gudbranson.

Some notable "busts" with higher points-per-game than Byfield: Nolan Patrick, Nail Yakupov, Kaapo Kakko, Alexis Lafreniere, Kirby Dach, Alex Galchenyuk, Kyle Turris, and Jonathan Drouin.

All defensemen with points-per-game higher than Byfield: Erik Johnson, Owen Power, Aaron Ekblad, Drew Doughty, Miro Heiskanen, Rasmus Dahlin, and Victor Hedman.

I sure hope Byfield turns it around, otherwise he's literally the biggest top-three bust of the modern era.

 

[kilowatt]

I know what some of the folks are going to say: But look at our finish last year! One of the best in Kings history!

To which I respond: Now imagine if we had an even better GM, coach, and development staff running the show? Could we have won the cup? Why are we complacent with (at best) mediocrity? We made the playoffs -- so did 15 other teams! Who gives a flying f*** about making the playoffs?

 

[kingsfan28]

2019
1.05: Turcotte (Bust)
1.22: Bjornfot (Bust)
2.33: Kaliyev (TBD, I'm not optimistic)
2.50: Fagemo (Off the roster)

It's quite possible that the awful year of the fraud coach Willie D, with our only consolation being drafting in the top 5, could all be busts.

Fagemo did nothing here, and was already passed by Laf, a straight out of college player. He was the Moller pick of the draft, except with out his drive. Turcotte looked better than he did every shift, and Fagemo 5 straight whiffs on the pp in the last few games didn't help his cause either. I'm sure they hoped he'd slip through, he didn't, move on.

 

[Herby]

I wanted to see if this was correct, so I took the top three draft picks for each draft from 2004 through 2021 and looked at points per game.

Two important notes: 1. I basically see the Ovechkin and Crosby drafts as the "turning point" for the modern era of the NHL, so that's why I'm starting there rather than 2000, and 2. two of the top three picks from 2022 haven't played an NHL game yet (only Slafkofsky, no Nemec or Cooley), so I'm not including those draft years.

Of the 54 players drafted in the top three picks since 2004, only 5 players have a worse points per game. All 5 of those players are defensemen. Those players are: Cam Barker, Ryan Murray, Jack Johnson, Zach Bogosian, and Erik Gudbranson.

Some notable "busts" with higher points-per-game than Byfield: Nolan Patrick, Nail Yakupov, Kaapo Kakko, Alexis Lafreniere, Kirby Dach, Alex Galchenyuk, Kyle Turris, and Jonathan Drouin.

All defensemen with points-per-game higher than Byfield: Erik Johnson, Owen Power, Aaron Ekblad, Drew Doughty, Miro Heiskanen, Rasmus Dahlin, and Victor Hedman.

I sure hope Byfield turns it around, otherwise he's literally the biggest top-three bust of the modern era.

View attachment 748317

Thank you, I am unfortunately aware of this and have posted these numbers before, that is why I use the term (historically bad) in describing those two picks. Because it’s factually true. It’s QB and Kyle Turris for least productive(not someone you want to be compared to). And Turcotte is only the third player taken in the Top 5 in the last 20 years to not record a point in his first 4 seasons after being drafted. The other two were Hickey and Dal Colle, again more players you don’t want to be mentioned with.

Somebody should have lost their jobs for these picks. But when the #1 media source for the team is talking about “rebuild is ahead of schedule” and having members of the organization to come on his podcast and outright lie to the fans (and then amplify those lies), I guess people won’t be aware of just how bad those picks were. Either that, or it’s been so long since the Kings drafted so high that a lot of the fanbase is ignorant to the type of player you should be getting with picks like that. Especially with a 2OA. You should be aiming for a perennial allstar at minimum, and considering the guy at 3 looks like that, it’s not like that type of player wasn’t there. 2019 and 2020 were not 2003 but it wasn’t 1996 either.

But again thanks for posting the numbers.

 

[kingsfan28]

I know what some of the folks are going to say: But look at our finish last year! One of the best in Kings history!

To which I respond: Now imagine if we had an even better GM, coach, and development staff running the show? Could we have won the cup? Why are we complacent with (at best) mediocrity? We made the playoffs -- so did 15 other teams! Who gives a flying f*** about making the playoffs?

That logic could be applied to the other 15 teams too.

 

[kilowatt]

That logic could be applied to the other 15 teams too.

Those teams should be mad too.

 

[Piston]

Kopitar has 2 Cups, Bergeron with the 1.

Bergeron was willing to play for a salary well below what he was worth because he put the team first and wanted another Cup. Kopitar is putting his earning power first not leaving much room to improve the roster. Anze is indisputably the GOAT LA King, but he really screwed the franchise with his contract. He proved to everyone in the locker room that him getting paid was the priority. Both Bergeron and AK are team Captains- who behaved like one? Not that I begrudge Kopitar getting the most dollars that he could, but he should have been shown the door by Blake before agreeing to this extension. This is a business after all and winning the Cup is what it's all about, not retaining players who put themselves above what's best for the team.

 

[BringTheReign]

Picking another one of our young players who won a spot over Fagemo is one thing. Picking Lewis at this stage of his career, however…

 

[riznat]

It's quite possible that the awful year of the fraud coach Willie D, with our only consolation being drafting in the top 5, could all be busts.

Fagemo did nothing here, and was already passed by Laf, a straight out of college player. He was the Moller pick of the draft, except with out his drive. Turcotte looked better than he did every shift, and Fagemo 5 straight whiffs on the pp in the last few games didn't help his cause either. I'm sure they hoped he'd slip through, he didn't, move on.

Omg Willie d, what a dark time

 

[ru4reals]

If you think people are hung up on Fagemo it’s not that, it’s how he’s gone. He’s left with no experience from the team that’s drafted him. He was supposed to be a decent player but we will never know because the Kings just threw him away because some dumb ass like Lewis took up another spot because Todd doesn’t know how to run a PK.


I have zero faith in this organization.

100%!!! No words. I'm not even that upset about Fagemo but just infuriating how they develop the young forwards. Since Kopi (2005), Kempe and Toffolli. That's about it. Unless I'm missing someone. Sad.

 

[Herby]

It's quite possible that the awful year of the fraud coach Willie D, with our only consolation being drafting in the top 5, could all be busts.

Fagemo did nothing here, and was already passed by Laf, a straight out of college player. He was the Moller pick of the draft, except with out his drive. Turcotte looked better than he did every shift, and Fagemo 5 straight whiffs on the pp in the last few games didn't help his cause either. I'm sure they hoped he'd slip through, he didn't, move on.

Missing on a late 2nd rounder isn’t that big a deal, but this is just a continuing pattern of this team being unable to get any kind of reasonable return on high draft picks.

Vilardi
JAD
Kupari
Thomas
Turcotte
Bjornfot
Fagemo
Byfield
Grans
Faber
Clarke
Pinelli
Hughes
Helenius

How many of these picks do you believe have brought the Kings a sufficient ROI?

You are looking at a C taken #11 whos now a 2nd line RW as being the most proven pick. With #2 being a player currently on the Minnesota Wild.

We are all optimistic about Clarke, but it looks like “here we go again” with the AHL bullshit. His long-term development will suffer just like everyone else’s did from being down there.

 

[FSL KINGS]

 

[kingsfan28]

Missing on a late 2nd rounder isn’t that big a deal, but this is just a continuing pattern of this team being unable to get any kind of reasonable return on high draft picks.

Vilardi
JAD
Kupari
Thomas
Turcotte
Bjornfot
Fagemo
Byfield
Grans
Faber
Clarke
Pinelli
Hughes
Helenius

How many of these picks do you believe have brought the Kings a sufficient ROI?

You are looking at a C taken #11 whos now a 2nd line RW as being the most proven pick. With #2 being a player currently on the Minnesota Wild.

We are all optimistic about Clarke, but it looks like “here we go again” with the AHL bullshit. His long-term development will suffer just like everyone else’s did from being down there.

You bring up Faber a lot, but had the Kings not traded him, do you actually believe he'd have step off the campus and right into the playoiffs last year with ZERO NHL games, against McDavid? Spence and Clarke couldn't even get into the line up. I'm glad he may make the Wild this year and hope he does well there, but here he was just one more talent RHD, with no place to play.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Please tell me this is sarcasm that I have missed, because it has nothing to do with the valid point he is making.

Kopitar isnt looking for a last run in his last year yet.

Bergeron was willing to play for a salary well below what he was worth because he put the team first and wanted another Cup. Kopitar is putting his earning power first not leaving much room to improve the roster. Anze is indisputably the GOAT LA King, but he really screwed the franchise with his contract. He proved to everyone in the locker room that him getting paid was the priority. Both Bergeron and AK are team Captains- who behaved like one? Not that I begrudge Kopitar getting the most dollars that he could, but he should have been shown the door by Blake before agreeing to this extension. This is a business after all and winning the Cup is what it's all about, not retaining players who put themselves above what's best for the team.

Bergeron was playing his last season and wanted to help the Bruins load up.

 

[kingsfan28]

Omg Willie d, what a dark time

If those 3 top 40 picks don't hit, it will be all for nothing.

 

[King'sPawn]

You bring up Faber a lot, but had the Kings not traded him, do you actually believe he'd have step off the campus and right into the playoiffs last year with ZERO NHL games, against McDavid? Spence and Clarke couldn't even get into the line up. I'm glad he may make the Wild this year and hope he does well there, but here he was just one more talent RHD, with no place to play.

On the Kings? No. But that's the problem.

He still played in the playoffs last season after getting a couple games in Minnesota against Jason Robertson and Dallas. He played on the Olympic team the year before, as well as being the captain of Team USA's WJC team.

 

[Herby]

You bring up Faber a lot, but had the Kings not traded him, do you actually believe he'd have step off the campus and right into the playoiffs last year with ZERO NHL games, against McDavid? Spence and Clarke couldn't even get into the line up. I'm glad he may make the Wild this year and hope he does well there, but here he was just one more talent RHD, with no place to play.

No, he wouldn’t have, and that is the problem! . Cole Caufield wouldn’t have been able to be dominant in the playoffs right away, or Matty Beniers, or Owen Power or Cale Makar. Jack Hughes would have been in Ontario at 18 instead of the proven successful path for top 2 picks of being in the NHL. (Which QB was denied)

You are proving my point that this team has no idea how to develop high end players, largely because of their obsession with turning them into system players in the AHL. I’ve been saying this for years, happy you finally agree. Next up convincing GBH how awful this strategy is.

Again, give the examples of the heavy AHL usage for high picks that has paid dividends for the Kings?