Training Camp 2023

[tnfrs]

heres what Coots has to say about Cates around the 2min mark, kind of interesting

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I listened to the presser and just thought Torts was being honest, as usual.

He praised Frost, but he's also honest about Frost, Frost is not great off the puck, that's what got him in trouble initially, and his skill package is such that you're not going to pay him to be a 3C. Torts wants him to show that he's a legitimate top 6 center. Frost padded his stats against weak sisters last season, Frost needs to show that he can be matched against other teams' top six guys and won't have to be sheltered against good teams.

He was just as honest about Cates, the difference is Cates as a 3C is already one of the best in the NHL and doesn't have to be sheltered, defensively he can play against any center. But for Cates to be in the top 6, he has to show more offensively.

There's nothing shocking about this, if you want a top team, you need players who can match up against other teams' best players.

He was also very complimentary of Sanheim, says he's stronger and playing with a chip on his shoulder and taking on more of a leadership role. This is what Sanheim should be doing at 27, with a big contract and NTC.

Something to remember is that every single player pads their stats against bad teams. It's not something we should be holding against any particular player.

Torts bugs me for a lot of reasons, but his "honesty" immediately makes me think of Seinfeld.

I don't get what his end game is with Frost. Every time he talks about Frost, he uses some version of "supposed offensive centre". What is the point of saying that every time?

With Couts back and what he thinks about Cates, he should be salivating at the chance to roll a third line (because we know Frost will get third line ES minutes) with Frost against bottom six opposition lines. Instead, he can't help himself in taking digs at Frost publicly. It's a shitty tactic.

 

[Beef Invictus]

heres what Coots has to say about Cates around the 2min mark, kind of interesting

Couturier gushes praise for Thompson.

 

[Cody Webster]

heres what Coots has to say about Cates around the 2min mark, kind of interesting

Breaking News: Teammate talks up teammate when asked about said teammate. More at 11

 

[deadhead]

Something to remember is that every single player pads their stats against bad teams. It's not something we should be holding against any particular player.

Frost did it to an unusually steep extent last season, one reason for the Flyers to look at a larger sample of play before deciding to "get married." Tippett did as well, but not as extreme.

Cates did not have much difference in production against top and bottom teams, probably b/c his style of play doesn't benefit as much from weaker defenses. Also, since he was matched against top lines, even bad teams usually have one good line.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost did it to an unusually steep extent last season, one reason for the Flyers to look at a larger sample of play before deciding to "get married." Tippett did as well, but not as extreme.

Cates did not have much difference in production against top and bottom teams, probably b/c his style of play doesn't benefit as much from weaker defenses. Also, since he was matched against top lines, even bad teams usually have one good line.

No, Frost didn't do it to an unusually steep extent. When you have to always make things up to defend a position, it's a bad position.

 

[Magua]

IF Frost isn't a top 6 forward, they should probably trade him, b/c he's becoming too expensive for 3C - right or wrong, offense gets paid more than overall value.

This is a doozy, even for you. We get it: you have an irrational bias.

There is no such thing as "top 6." Go take a look at an actual contender's middle 6. Meanwhile, a "rebuilding" team with the 3rd worst offense in hockey over the last 2 years -- with a mediocre non-Michkov system, with poor center depth -- should be giddy to extricate themselves from one of their most skilled young players/centers. Reasoning? He might cost too much in 2 years (which would mean something good happened?) because offense gets paid more......except it just didn't with Frost and Cates. Which is its own backtrack-ready tangent waiting to happen.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He's just setting up defenses for when they lose the inevitable Frost trade.

 

[Rebels57]

heres what Coots has to say about Cates around the 2min mark, kind of interesting

Nothing Coots says will ever be interesting again after he publicly clamored for the return of Nate Thompson.

 

[deadhead]

This is a doozy, even for you. We get it: you have an irrational bias.

There is no such thing as "top 6." Go take a look at an actual contender's middle 6. Meanwhile, a "rebuilding" team with the 3rd worst offense in hockey over the last 2 years -- with a mediocre non-Michkov system, with poor center depth -- should be giddy to extricate themselves from one of their most skilled young players/centers. Reasoning? He might cost too much in 2 years (which would mean something good happened?) because offense gets paid more......except it just didn't with Frost and Cates. Which is its own backtrack-ready tangent waiting to happen.

Frost has a wide open track to be the 2C this year, he's getting better wingers in camp than Cates, he'll get plenty of PT to show he deserves the job. He's 24, time to put up.

Now it's possible if Gauthier turns out to be a real center, that he ends up as the 2C, or Michkov ends up as the 1C down the road. In that case, if Frost produces like a 2C, but ends up being used more as a 3C, that's a GOOD thing.

Point is Frost's strength is offense, so he should be expected to produce. If he can't produce offense at a top six rate, we can find cheaper two way centers for the bottom six.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost has a wide open track to be the 2C this year, he's getting better wingers in camp than Cates, he'll get plenty of PT to show he deserves the job. He's 24, time to put up.

Now it's possible if Gauthier turns out to be a real center, that he ends up as the 2C, or Michkov ends up as the 1C down the road. In that case, if Frost produces like a 2C, but ends up being used more as a 3C, that's a GOOD thing.

Point is Frost's strength is offense, so he should be expected to produce. If he can't produce offense at a top six rate, we can find cheaper two way centers for the bottom six.

That's only true if the team is run on merit, which it isn't and never will be until everyone alive is fired.

 

[deadhead]

Metzler is complaining that Torts overworked the team to start TC.
Well, yes, he did, did that in CBJ too.
Which is why I think he won't put much value on the first exhibition game, other than to note which players skated hard (brownie points) despite 'dead legs.'

I'd point out this is the approach Andy Reid took when he took over the Eagles.
Sirianni takes the opposite approach, but two decades later players are in much better condition coming to camp.

With Torts, some of it may be to motivate players to stay in shape over the summer, some of it may be to see who can push through fatigue, that's a valuable attribute when you're talking 82 game schedules with a stretch or too from hell.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Frost has a wide open track to be the 2C this year, he's getting better wingers in camp than Cates, he'll get plenty of PT to show he deserves the job. He's 24, time to put up.

Now it's possible if Gauthier turns out to be a real center, that he ends up as the 2C, or Michkov ends up as the 1C down the road. In that case, if Frost produces like a 2C, but ends up being used more as a 3C, that's a GOOD thing.

Point is Frost's strength is offense, so he should be expected to produce. If he can't produce offense at a top six rate, we can find cheaper two way centers for the bottom six.

how long a leash will he have is the question. Why not use him on the PK, rebuilding year and all. Plus will increase his value for the inevitable trade. I am not even a Frost fan and can see he is getting a raw deal

Metzler is complaining that Torts overworked the team to start TC.
Well, yes, he did, did that in CBJ too.
Which is why I think he won't put much value on the first exhibition game, other than to note which players skated hard (brownie points) despite 'dead legs.'

I'd point out this is the approach Andy Reid took when he took over the Eagles.
Sirianni takes the opposite approach, but two decades later players are in much better condition coming to camp.

With Torts, some of it may be to motivate players to stay in shape over the summer, some of it may be to see who can push through fatigue, that's a valuable attribute when you're talking 82 game schedules with a stretch or too from hell.

or it could be he is narrowminded and knows no other way. Doesn't want to adapt or change.

Also what he did in his other stops doesn't matter. It is 2023. what worked then, which is debatable, may not work know. Has he come up with any new strategies for camp?

 

[deadhead]

Laughton - Cates - Tuomaala
Deslauriers - Poehling - Hathaway
Allison - Gardner - Wisdom
Furry - Laczynski - Marody

The AHL tune up game. Will probably get smoked b/c teams tend to play their better players at home in front of their fans.
Basically our 3rd line sans Foerster, our 4th line, LHV's 2nd line and LHV's 3rd line.

But it's a chance to impress the FO, you won't make the team off this game, but you'll get more attention in LHV as a possible promotion or injury call up if you can hold your own against NHL players.

Andrae, Attard ?
Ginning, Belpedio ?
Mete, Karashik ?

Adam Karashik (25), 6'0 200 RHD, signed 1 year AHL contract.
4 years Connecticut, 1 year Notre Dame, good fifth season at 23 years old.
Pretty much a warm body, probably 7th/8th D-man on the Phantoms. But he'll able to say he was in TC and played against NHL players.

Victor Mete is someone to watch, had a nice year at 20 with the Habs, then spiraled downward, but is only 25. Undersized D-man who can really skate, but never produced consistently at the NHL level, but had good xGF% metrics until the last couple seasons. Has been dinged up the last couple years, not surprising given he's listed at 5'9 187.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There is a zero percent chance of the Flyers fixing Mete. None. Zilch.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Nothing Coots says will ever be interesting again after he publicly clamored for the return of Nate Thompson.

So what’s hesupposed to say? He f***ing sucks. At the end of the day it’s a nonissue. Good players will always go to bat for former teammates even ones that are not very good.They are probably friends. Really don’t understand the angst over it.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

The tired old sour puss couldn't even say anything nice about Denver Barkey after he was sent back to London yesterday. Every other person within the organization had nothing but glowing commendations about Denver, but Tortorella was nowhere to be found.

I honestly hope things go SOOOOOOOO bad for him this season that he quits. I hate when players quit playing for a coach, but in this case, I'm more than willing to see a full on locker room mutiny. I have no problems with tough coaches, provided there are viable explanations and that there is some praise for said player and the good they do. The curmudgeon can't even do that. What a jackass.

 

[deadhead]

The tired old sour puss couldn't even say anything nice about Denver Barkey after he was sent back to London yesterday. Every other person within the organization had nothing but glowing commendations about Denver, but Tortorella was nowhere to be found.

I honestly hope things go SOOOOOOOO bad for him this season that he quits. I hate when players quit playing for a coach, but in this case, I'm more than willing to see a full on locker room mutiny. I have no problems with tough coaches, provided there are viable explanations and that there is some praise for said player and the good they do. The curmudgeon can't even do that. What a jackass.

That's an issue?

Barkey is 18, going back to junior, doubt Torts even looked at him twice. He's someone Briere, his scouts and his development people will watch closely, but Torts isn't going to be interested until he's eligible for the AHL and becomes a potential call-up. From a HC"s perspective, what a kid does at 18 is meaningless, the player he becomes at 21 when he's fighting for a NHL is what matters.

The initial roster I think was 57 players, Torts is probably only interested in 30-35 of them right now.

 

[Rebels57]

So what’s hesupposed to say? He f***ing sucks. At the end of the day it’s a nonissue. Good players will always go to bat for former teammates even ones that are not very good.They are probably friends. Really don’t understand the angst over it.

The comments weren't the usual off-handed support of a teammate.

He brought about Thompson on his own and mentioned how his absence was one of the reasons they had a poor 20-21 season and said they "needed him."

He didn't just value Thompson as a teammate. He valued his on-ice worth. Problem is, he was one of the very worst forwards in the NHL while on the Flyers.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Torts and Deady will be rock hard watching that top 6 tonight !

 

[tnfrs]

The comments weren't the usual off-handed support of a teammate.

He brought about Thompson on his own and mentioned how his absence was one of the reasons they had a poor 20-21 season and said they "needed him."

He didn't just value Thompson as a teammate. He valued his on-ice worth. Problem is, he was one of the very worst forwards in the NHL while on the Flyers.

did you see how many players posted stuff about nate when he retired? it was an unusually large number for a ice whos on ice value youre questioning. i think alot of people outside of hockey underestimate how much on ice value a good teammate brings

nothing about what coots said in that clip i posted is usual off handed stuff either, he spends like a minute talking about cates. talks about him like a teammate hell be playing with for years, not like a prospect trying to earn a spot.

 

[Audible Velvet]

So what’s hesupposed to say? He f***ing sucks. At the end of the day it’s a nonissue. Good players will always go to bat for former teammates even ones that are not very good.They are probably friends. Really don’t understand the angst over it.

If I remember correctly, it was unprompted. That makes a big difference.
Already responded more thoroughly by Reb

 

[Rebels57]

did you see how many players posted stuff about nate when he retired? it was an unusually large number for a ice whos on ice value youre questioning. i think alot of people outside of hockey underestimate how much on ice value a good teammate brings

nothing about what coots said in that clip i posted is usual off handed stuff either, he spends like a minute talking about cates. talks about him like a teammate hell be playing with for years, not like a prospect trying to earn a spot.

I wonder how his teammates that played with him during the years he would show up to practice still f***ed up on drugs felt after he retired.

 

[tnfrs]

I wonder how his teammates that played with him during the years he would show up to practice still f***ed up on drugs felt after he retired.

used to happen way more often than you think, flyers are no stranger to that kind of stuff. we also had a captain that was arrested for grabbing a cop's ass. the captain before him was an opioid addict at the end of his career and one of the captains before that refused to play for the team that drafted him, we've never been without controversy. no team avoids it entirely.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I wonder how his teammates that played with him during the years he would show up to practice still f***ed up on drugs felt after he retired.

yes we all wonder. Thoughts on Tony D in /Carolina this year?

used to happen way more often than you think, flyers are no stranger to that kind of stuff. we also had a captain that was arrested for grabbing a cop's ass. the captain before him was an opioid addict at the end of his career and one of the captains before that refused to play for the team that drafted him, we've never been without controversy. no team avoids it entirely.

yep. a very odd take for one to take. way more often